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Ricoh ownership (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter Astute
  • Start date Dec 14, 2013
Forums New posts

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #1
I posted this comment on another thread. But have put it on here as it will be lost in with other comments.

My questions are why does Joy want the freehold so much and how does she plan to get her investors their money back plus make them a profit. And before anyone says anything this is my worse fear and not a fact.

All insults welcome as usual





I will say what my worse fear is again and it is nothing like demolishing the arena like I was recently accused of saying. I had said in the past that it would never happen even if they wanted it to because of planning rules.

SISUE have put millions into our club. How much is very debatable. At one stage we were told we were losing 500k a month. It has been much lower than this for a fair bit of time considering they have been with us for six years. But lets say 500k per month for the time they have been with us. 6m a year. 36m in total. So I would guess that it is somewhere between 25m and 30m. No idea how it has got as high as the 60m or 70m as they have said. Can't all of come from management fees and interest as we know they charge us.......can it? They want their money back plus a return for their investors. Two promotions and they would be in the money. But they already tried this when we were only one step away from the Prem. This is how we started losing 500k a month. If only they would have got a decent manager in before they started throwing money at the squad. So to me they won't get their money back this way as they failed and changed direction.

Plan B. Get the freehold. Get rid of the leasehold at the same time. They would own the whole thing. Start up yet another section of SISUE.......Coventry City Arena lets say. Timothy even said the arena wouldn't be owned by the club itself. Most of the fans have come back. The rest of the arena is still profitable. Coventry City Arena remortgages the arena to pay back money owed to SISUE/Otium and whatever/whoever the money is owed to. Their investors get their money back plus a profit. So then we are left with a massive mortgage to pay. Interest rates will go up soon. Just like they were much higher when the stadium was built. They are the lowest in living history ATM. Mortgage repayments can't be met. Would this lead to liquidation? Would liquidation happen before this?

I know certain people will say this won't happen. They have said it each time I have said the same. But Joy wants her money back. Has anyone got a better idea on how she will do it? Can anyone say 100% they don't work this way? Look back at the way SISUE work. They use litigation to get their own way. We are seeing this for ourselves even now. They then use admin/liquidation to get the best return a lot of the time. We also know about the admin bit. They got out of the rental agreement by doing this. Buying the arena will not suddenly make our club worth a lot of money. We would have to be a Prem side to be worth as much as they would want. And for this to happen we would have to do twice what we haven't done for nearly 50 years.......finish in the top 6. We can't even manage it in the old division 3.
 

James Smith

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #2
Astute said:
I posted this comment on another thread. But have put it on here as it will be lost in with other comments.

My questions are why does Joy want the freehold so much and how does she plan to get her investors their money back plus make them a profit. And before anyone says anything this is my worse fear and not a fact.

All insults welcome as usual





I will say what my worse fear is again and it is nothing like demolishing the arena like I was recently accused of saying. I had said in the past that it would never happen even if they wanted it to because of planning rules.

SISUE have put millions into our club. How much is very debatable. At one stage we were told we were losing 500k a month. It has been much lower than this for a fair bit of time considering they have been with us for six years. But lets say 500k per month for the time they have been with us. 6m a year. 36m in total. So I would guess that it is somewhere between 25m and 30m. No idea how it has got as high as the 60m or 70m as they have said. Can't all of come from management fees and interest as we know they charge us.......can it? They want their money back plus a return for their investors. Two promotions and they would be in the money. But they already tried this when we were only one step away from the Prem. This is how we started losing 500k a month. If only they would have got a decent manager in before they started throwing money at the squad. So to me they won't get their money back this way as they failed and changed direction.

Plan B. Get the freehold. Get rid of the leasehold at the same time. They would own the whole thing. Start up yet another section of SISUE.......Coventry City Arena lets say. Timothy even said the arena wouldn't be owned by the club itself. Most of the fans have come back. The rest of the arena is still profitable. Coventry City Arena remortgages the arena to pay back money owed to SISUE/Otium and whatever/whoever the money is owed to. Their investors get their money back plus a profit. So then we are left with a massive mortgage to pay. Interest rates will go up soon. Just like they were much higher when the stadium was built. They are the lowest in living history ATM. Mortgage repayments can't be met. Would this lead to liquidation? Would liquidation happen before this?

I know certain people will say this won't happen. They have said it each time I have said the same. But Joy wants her money back. Has anyone got a better idea on how she will do it? Can anyone say 100% they don't work this way? Look back at the way SISUE work. They use litigation to get their own way. We are seeing this for ourselves even now. They then use admin/liquidation to get the best return a lot of the time. We also know about the admin bit. They got out of the rental agreement by doing this. Buying the arena will not suddenly make our club worth a lot of money. We would have to be a Prem side to be worth as much as they would want. And for this to happen we would have to do twice what we haven't done for nearly 50 years.......finish in the top 6. We can't even manage it in the old division 3.
Click to expand...

If SISU after obtaining the freehold as part of a deal to get us back in Coventry, can then just liquidate the club following the sale I don't see why they should get the freehold. I can see the comments now about this

"The debts are too high and the owners are unable to 'invest' any more.....the club cannot realistically continue as a going concern.....we had passed the tipping point and insolvent liquidation could not be avoided.......have appointed Paul Appleton as liquidator"

Would defeat the point of getting the club back in Coventry, however we would get AEG managing the Ricoh, or could a sale to AEG be on the cards?
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #3
Why would sisu liquidate the club after buying the freehold? The arena and the club are worth far more as a joint package (even if in separate companies).

And combining the two will increase the value of both. You suddenly have a package with a turnover of £24m+ in the championship, let alone what could be made in the PL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
 
Last edited: Dec 14, 2013

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #4
stupot07 said:
Why would sisu liquidate the club after buying the freehold? The arena and the club are worth far more as a joint package (even if in separate companies).

And combining the two will increase the value of both. You suddenly have a package with a turnover of £24m+ in the championship, let alone what could be made in the PL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
Click to expand...

Wheras if they got their money back and a bit more by remortgaging they would be in profit. That is the name of the game they play. Then hand it over to someone else to run. Any profit would be extra profit. Don't expect too much investment in the club though. And if it then went all tits up they will not have lost anything. Win win situation for them if they went this way.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #5
We just need to wait until Sisue have run through their hedge fund business toolbox and see what is left.
We need to wait for JR and any further appeals plus any other processes not yet used.
Fans are the collateral damage but a lot will still be there when they have gone.

ACL are establishing a successful business without the club but there is still risks without a sitting resident in the bowl.
ACL/CCC can also expect criticism from fans as they see letting Sisue have the stadium as a benefit for the club.
However the club will never own the stadium as we have already been advised, so what the benefits would be are uncertain.

Some fans, like me, don't care who owns the Ricoh as all we want is a belonging to the club and stadium.
Who really knows the ownership/finances of any stadium in the country anyway?
 

James Smith

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #6
stupot07 said:
Why would sisu liquidate the club after buying the freehold? The arena and the club are worth far more as a joint package (even if in separate companies).

And combining the two will increase the value of both. You suddenly have a package with a turnover of £24m+ in the championship, let alone what could be made in the PL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm not saying that they would but that they could. We're having a great run so far and Elvis and the squad deserve all the credit for that but if suppose (and I'm just thinking about a worse case scenario here) we don't get promoted. Or we have a bad next few seasons and lounge around towards the bottom of the table. Are Sisu and their investors going to continue to fund the losses from the club?

I may seem negative but I try and look at the worst things that can happen and ways to mitigate them. Also makes me feel happier when that doesn't happen.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #7
we'll be the last too know what sisu's plans are, that's for sure.

my guess is that sisu will own it, not the club (pretty much confirmed). who knows what the combination of rent and management fee's will be, but i would be surprised if we are any better off with the exception of F & B and maybe car parking, minus management fee's for organising this extra commodity. aeg will take over from acl, that much is clear but surely they will still need co-operation from CCC for entertainment licences etc so i doubt there will be any more on away from football at the ricoh then their already is. however its a hell of an asset to have on your portfolio and i suspect this is the true value for sisu.
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #8
Astute your scenario is a real possibility if Sisu get their hands on the stadium !!!
Its a shame that the Sixfields Sisu supporters trust don't see it yet even on top of Sisu threatening fans !!!!!!!!
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #9
James Smith said:
Sorry I'm not saying that they would but that they could. We're having a great run so far and Elvis and the squad deserve all the credit for that but if suppose (and I'm just thinking about a worse case scenario here) we don't get promoted. Or we have a bad next few seasons and lounge around towards the bottom of the table. Are Sisu and their investors going to continue to fund the losses from the club?

I may seem negative but I try and look at the worst things that can happen and ways to mitigate them. Also makes me feel happier when that doesn't happen.
Click to expand...

I agree they could but we're talking about a scenario if they bought and owned the freehold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
 
C

CCFC PimpRail

New Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #10
I think Sisue are clinging onto the hope that one day they will be able to sell the complete package to a rich American or Far Eastern investor. Sorry, but that ship sailed a long time ago..
 

Hobo

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #11
I think SISU's game plan has changed, because the world markets have changed. They are looking for a long term investment, landlord type scenario.

They seem to be involved in pension funds, long term investments

But I said on a previous thread that ACL CCC could redeveloped the Ricoh site away from a football stadium if required. at least they have an asset to develop.

Therefore so could SISU if they got their hands on it. Structures come and go all the time, it's land and location that are the most important.

What annoys me is when people say I met Joy and the owners. They are very enthusiastic about Coventry City FC. Well why don't they share the enthusiasm with the fans?
 
D

dongonzalos

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #12
Astute said:
I posted this comment on another thread. But have put it on here as it will be lost in with other comments.

My questions are why does Joy want the freehold so much and how does she plan to get her investors their money back plus make them a profit. And before anyone says anything this is my worse fear and not a fact.

All insults welcome as usual





I will say what my worse fear is again and it is nothing like demolishing the arena like I was recently accused of saying. I had said in the past that it would never happen even if they wanted it to because of planning rules.

SISUE have put millions into our club. How much is very debatable. At one stage we were told we were losing 500k a month. It has been much lower than this for a fair bit of time considering they have been with us for six years. But lets say 500k per month for the time they have been with us. 6m a year. 36m in total. So I would guess that it is somewhere between 25m and 30m. No idea how it has got as high as the 60m or 70m as they have said. Can't all of come from management fees and interest as we know they charge us.......can it? They want their money back plus a return for their investors. Two promotions and they would be in the money. But they already tried this when we were only one step away from the Prem. This is how we started losing 500k a month. If only they would have got a decent manager in before they started throwing money at the squad. So to me they won't get their money back this way as they failed and changed direction.

Plan B. Get the freehold. Get rid of the leasehold at the same time. They would own the whole thing. Start up yet another section of SISUE.......Coventry City Arena lets say. Timothy even said the arena wouldn't be owned by the club itself. Most of the fans have come back. The rest of the arena is still profitable. Coventry City Arena remortgages the arena to pay back money owed to SISUE/Otium and whatever/whoever the money is owed to. Their investors get their money back plus a profit. So then we are left with a massive mortgage to pay. Interest rates will go up soon. Just like they were much higher when the stadium was built. They are the lowest in living history ATM. Mortgage repayments can't be met. Would this lead to liquidation? Would liquidation happen before this?

I know certain people will say this won't happen. They have said it each time I have said the same. But Joy wants her money back. Has anyone got a better idea on how she will do it? Can anyone say 100% they don't work this way? Look back at the way SISUE work. They use litigation to get their own way. We are seeing this for ourselves even now. They then use admin/liquidation to get the best return a lot of the time. We also know about the admin bit. They got out of the rental agreement by doing this. Buying the arena will not suddenly make our club worth a lot of money. We would have to be a Prem side to be worth as much as they would want. And for this to happen we would have to do twice what we haven't done for nearly 50 years.......finish in the top 6. We can't even manage it in the old division 3.
Click to expand...

Are they banding round a valuation of 5-6 million

For something I am completely guessing would be considered an absolute bargain at 60 million plus?

Is their plan not to distress and devalue the Ricoh by removing the football club.

Do what they always do buy a distressed asset at a lower value and then make some money out of it.

I would assume the quickest way to make money would be reunite it with the club. Instantly increasing its value and get in striking distance of the championship play offs.

Then you are selling the whole package plus the dream of the prem.
 

Sky Blue Kid

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #13
stupot07...I agree they could but we're talking about a scenario if they bought and owned the freehold. ........................................................................................Errr isn't that what they're already trying to do?....Slight mistake on my half.....Trying to steal the Stadium I should have said.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #14
Sky Blue Kid said:
stupot07...I agree they could but we're talking about a scenario if they bought and owned the freehold. ........................................................................................Errr isn't that what they're already trying to do?....Slight mistake on my half.....Trying to steal the Stadium I should have said.
Click to expand...

I'm confused, your post doesn't make any sense in terms of the OP or thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
 

blueflint

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #15
only thing i can see is it will go on for quite a while longer.all the time losing more and more fans if it goes into next season at sixfields i won't bother at all and i'm sure others feel the same
 

bigfatronssba

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #16
[B said:
stupot07 [/B];603790]Why would sisu liquidate the club after buying the freehold? The arena and the club are worth far more as a joint package (even if in separate companies).

And combining the two will increase the value of both. You suddenly have a package with a turnover of £24m+ in the championship, let alone what could be made in the PL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
Click to expand...

If (and I do emphasise the IF in this comment) PKWH is right with his calculations and ACL are expected to have turnover of £12m this year, then that does somewhat throw into doubt the idea that the club and stadium are worth more together.
 
Last edited: Dec 14, 2013

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #17
blueflint said:
only thing i can see is it will go on for quite a while longer.all the time losing more and more fans if it goes into next season at sixfields i won't bother at all and i'm sure others feel the same
Click to expand...

By Fishers figures we're at Sixfields until at least 2017. Fuck knows what'll be left of the club by then. I know I'll probably drop most away games next season if there's no news of a new stadium by the summer.
 

Sky Blue Kid

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #18
stupot07........"bought and owned the freehold.".................................................................................................I was under the impression they were trying to "Steal it"
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #19
Sky Blue Kid said:
stupot07........"bought and owned the freehold.".................................................................................................I was under the impression they were trying to "Steal it"
Click to expand...

Yes, well done!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #20
If CCC dont want to sell their 50%.
Is that wrong ?
I don't think so providing they let the club have a reasonable rent and arrange for transfer of F&B to move over to the club.

Do the club require access to the F&B profits which are minimal or do they want access to the top line for Fair Play Rules?
The top line (income) could surely be taken at 100% for the club with ACL/Compass charging 100% as expenses. The rules only require the takings not the expenses in this league, I believe.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #21
The problem is Italia, that's fine for FFP but brings no/little income into the club therefore reliant on further investment/loans building more debt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #22
I agree but you can't expect high profits when you have not invested in the catering infrastructure. Personally I rarely spent money at the stadium due to CCFC not getting any money.
 
A

AJB1983

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #23
It's bad enough them owning the football club, an 'asset' of the city, and using it as a ransom against the council.
Them owning either the stadium or the land it sits on would be a disaster, and I fully support the council not wanting this.
 

mrtickle

Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #24
bigfatronssba said:
If (and I do emphasise the IF in this comment) PKWH is right with his calculations and ACL are expected to have turnover of £12m this year, then that does somewhat throw into doubt the idea that the club and stadium are worth more together.
Click to expand...

£12m turnover is nothing without profit. Ccfc turnover is millions each year but loses money.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 14, 2013
  • #25
bigfatronssba said:
If (and I do emphasise the IF in this comment) PKWH is right with his calculations and ACL are expected to have turnover of £12m this year, then that does somewhat throw into doubt the idea that the club and stadium are worth more together.
Click to expand...

How does it throw doubt that they are worth more together?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
 
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