Rebecca Long-Bailey sacked (2 Viewers)

Nick · Jun 26, 2020

Grendel said:
Robinson wants to convey a message all Muslims are terrorists. The old hard left want to convey a message Jews are racist authoritarian and dangerous.

Look at the Zarah Sultana. She said if she could kill 3 people it would be George Bush Tony Blair and the Israeli PM

That’s an odd choice isn’t it? Not the China leader, Mugawbe or another African despot, not the North Korean dynasty, not Putin and not the Saudi Prince or other brutal Middle East regimes?

Odd choice isn’t it?

So again, if Tommy Robinson mentioned Lee Rigby. Would he be making up a conspiracy theory?

I mean it's not really going to send that message out, is it? Especially when there is some actual validity in what is being said.

It's like me doing a Crane Kick from Karate Kid and somebody mentioning it being labelled as racist against Mr Miagi.

Like I have said, it's all politics. Look at how desperate people are to make up stories to make out how offensive it is, look at how desperate people are to say it's a "conspiracy theory" just based on their political views.

I have no clue who she is to have any bias either way.

Grendel · Jun 26, 2020

Nick said:
I mean it's not really going to send that message out, is it?

It's like me doing a Crane Kick from Karate Kid and somebody mentioning it being labelled as racist against Mr Miagi.

It’s exactly got the message out. I suspect you’ve never even thought about Israel before and now you are and it’s a negative image

Nick · Jun 26, 2020

Grendel said:
It’s exactly got the message out. I suspect you’ve never even thought about Israel before and now you are and it’s a negative image

Not really, I knew about Krav Maga before and had seen stuff about Israeli Police and Forces being trained and training people in it. I also knew other police forces went to Israel and people from Israel went around training in it too.

The image it gives me is "I wouldn't cause trouble with those hard bastards snapping me up"

It wasn't "Oh, they must have trained the George Floyd copper up so he could go and kill black people".

If anything, to somebody who doesn't follow politics it's made the leader look like a bit of a prick and just adds to the media not being bothered about looking at facts.

hill83 · Jun 26, 2020

hill83 said:
I’m sure you actively try to not understand what people are saying ha ha

David O'Day · Jun 26, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Sultana is an appropriate surname for that fruitcake.

Let me guess Grendal is obsessing over the non white mp for Coventry South again?

Nick · Jun 26, 2020

Reading this shite is what I look like when talking about CCFC and being biased as fuck.

Im booing time wasters for the opposition while getting excited about Marosi lying on the ball for 5 minutes.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 26, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
What is that, in your view?

That’s a good question, and honestly, I’m doing a bit of soul searching atm, politically.

Firstly, the key battle grounds of the next election is not clear. It’s too early in the election cycle for policies.

A few things, in my view, the Labour Party needs to address (in no particular order):

1) A plan for devolution countries. It’s haemorrhaging votes in Scotland and Wales. Is the solution a more centralised or decentralised Union. Instinctively, I’m a unionist. But, there may be value and a demand in more devolution.

2) Immigration. I’m pro-immigration and believe it benefits the nation in so many ways. But, this has been an issue for old working class Labour voters for some time. Promoting an ‘Australian style points system’ is pretty popular with voters. The win-win here is that Australia has high levels of immigration.

3) it needs to put to rest this antisemitism issue. It’s a blight on the party and something that is being used against the party.

4) Jobs creation. Depending on Covid-19 and Brexit, may be a big issue going into the next day election.

5) Regional Rejuvenation. How are they going to bring these old communities back to life? The Preston Model is an interesting case study, and one of the few places to remain Labour.

6) Other areas it needs to focus on: increase police funding (having worked in security, I got an insight into how thinly spread they are); increase vocational courses (not everyone needs Uni, 50% was arbitrary number); don’t be seen to be giving out too many ‘freebies’ (the broadband policy was not well received). I’ve skimmed over these points massively.

Look, I’m a cosmopolitan, university educated person from a v working class background. But, I like the idea of Blue Labour at this moment. Frankly, I think it’s probably the direction the party needs to go in if it is to survive and win votes.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 26, 2020

David O'Day said:
Let me guess Grendal is obsessing over the non white mp for Coventry South again?

On her he’s right, she should never have been selected as a candidate.

David O'Day · Jun 26, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
On her he’s right, she should never have been selected as a candidate.

Take it up with the Coventry South CLP. As a member of said CLP no one else really seems bothered.

Nick · Jun 26, 2020

David O'Day said:
Take it up with the Coventry South CLP. As a member of said CLP no one else really seems bothered.

Probably enjoying a bit of young arse.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 26, 2020

David O'Day said:
Take it up with the Coventry South CLP. As a member of said CLP no one else really seems bothered.

Perhaps that's part of the problem.

Ian1779 · Jun 26, 2020

Mucca Mad Boys said:
That’s a good question, and honestly, I’m doing a bit of soul searching atm, politically.

Firstly, the key battle grounds of the next election is not clear. It’s too early in the election cycle for policies.

A few things, in my view, the Labour Party needs to address (in no particular order):

1) A plan for devolution countries. It’s haemorrhaging votes in Scotland and Wales. Is the solution a more centralised or decentralised Union. Instinctively, I’m a unionist. But, there may be value and a demand in more devolution.

2) Immigration. I’m pro-immigration and believe it benefits the nation in so many ways. But, this has been an issue for old working class Labour voters for some time. Promoting an ‘Australian style points system’ is pretty popular with voters. The win-win here is that Australia has high levels of immigration.

3) it needs to put to rest this antisemitism issue. It’s a blight on the party and something that is being used against the party.

4) Jobs creation. Depending on Covid-19 and Brexit, may be a big issue going into the next day election.

5) Regional Rejuvenation. How are they going to bring these old communities back to life? The Preston Model is an interesting case study, and one of the few places to remain Labour.

6) Other areas it needs to focus on: increase police funding (having worked in security, I got an insight into how thinly spread they are); increase vocational courses (not everyone needs Uni, 50% was arbitrary number); don’t be seen to be giving out too many ‘freebies’ (the broadband policy was not well received). I’ve skimmed over these points massively.

Look, I’m a cosmopolitan, university educated person from a v working class background. But, I like the idea of Blue Labour at this moment. Frankly, I think it’s probably the direction the party needs to go in if it is to survive and win votes.

I think they are all fair and reasonable points, and I also feel that can easily co-exist with some socialist policies that are generally popular with the public. What concerns me (and I guess I am also soul-searching politically too) is that your suggestions only seem to go in hand with an ambivalence to austerity and a general ignorance of those in society that are most vulnerable... it has certainly seemed that way in the past. Maybe things can change - something definitely needs to.

I would also add to your list some radical action on housing needs to be part of the plan as well as an effective policy on environmental and green matters.

shmmeee · Jun 26, 2020

Mucca Mad Boys said:
That’s a good question, and honestly, I’m doing a bit of soul searching atm, politically.

Firstly, the key battle grounds of the next election is not clear. It’s too early in the election cycle for policies.

A few things, in my view, the Labour Party needs to address (in no particular order):

1) A plan for devolution countries. It’s haemorrhaging votes in Scotland and Wales. Is the solution a more centralised or decentralised Union. Instinctively, I’m a unionist. But, there may be value and a demand in more devolution.

2) Immigration. I’m pro-immigration and believe it benefits the nation in so many ways. But, this has been an issue for old working class Labour voters for some time. Promoting an ‘Australian style points system’ is pretty popular with voters. The win-win here is that Australia has high levels of immigration.

3) it needs to put to rest this antisemitism issue. It’s a blight on the party and something that is being used against the party.

4) Jobs creation. Depending on Covid-19 and Brexit, may be a big issue going into the next day election.

5) Regional Rejuvenation. How are they going to bring these old communities back to life? The Preston Model is an interesting case study, and one of the few places to remain Labour.

6) Other areas it needs to focus on: increase police funding (having worked in security, I got an insight into how thinly spread they are); increase vocational courses (not everyone needs Uni, 50% was arbitrary number); don’t be seen to be giving out too many ‘freebies’ (the broadband policy was not well received). I’ve skimmed over these points massively.

Look, I’m a cosmopolitan, university educated person from a v working class background. But, I like the idea of Blue Labour at this moment. Frankly, I think it’s probably the direction the party needs to go in if it is to survive and win votes.

I think you’re in the weeds of detail too much. Majority of swing voters go with the mood of the country rather than a detailed policy analysis and stuff like devolution means nothing outside of the politically engaged who have made their mind up already.

There’s two routes to power in the U.K.: you marry the liberal student cities with the socially conservative working class over a left wing economic program both support. That means patriotism, tough on crime and benefits cheats, immigration controls, plus investment in services and infrastructure.

Or you go right wing economics, low tax, low regulation, and try and get the Lib Dem and soft Tory vote.

What you can’t do is the Corbyn tactic of left wing liberalism of the students and woke middle class because they’re all concentrated in the same place.

Social attitude studies show consistently the U.K. is a left wing socially conservative country. IMO that’s the Labour route to power. Marry some element of Corbynite economics and investment with a focus on jobs and training, with a tabloid style social conservatism. That was Blair’s route and it doesn’t mean you can’t do liberal things like improving conditions for minorities, but you need the political capital from the country by draping yourself in the flag and hating the same things they do.

As a Labour member for the economics first and the social stuff second that’s fine by me but you’ll lose a lot of young idealistic activists which some would have an issue with. Personally I think the ground war is less and less important these days.

Mucca Mad Boys · Jun 26, 2020

Nick said:
I mean there's literally loads of videos on YouTube of "police Krav Maga" training that shows people being trained in restraint which includes a knee on the neck that looks very much like what the copper did to George Floyd.

Again, I am not saying that the Jews specially trained that exact copper to kneel on necks of black people and kill as many as he could. Thats the bat shit mental thing about it all.

Worked in security for 3-4 years. Seen and been involved in some grizzly situations (95%+ my career was uneventful). People have restrained people similarly to that who weren’t trained in Krav Maga.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that anyone who is trained properly, could do something like hold their knee of someone’s neck for 8+ minutes.

Even doing judo in PE at school, you’re taught that a choke in place for more than a minute or two could kill someone.

The level of training is poor and inadequate for police considering what they have to deal with day-to-day in the USA.

stupot07 · Jun 26, 2020

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shmmeee · Jun 26, 2020

@Nick I think you’re missing the “why mention the Jews at all” angle.

Like the people who pop into the George Floyd thread to drop statistics about black on black crime. It’s factually correct but the timing and placement of such facts makes you wonder about their agenda.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 26, 2020

Mucca Mad Boys said:
That’s a good question, and honestly, I’m doing a bit of soul searching atm, politically.

Firstly, the key battle grounds of the next election is not clear. It’s too early in the election cycle for policies.

A few things, in my view, the Labour Party needs to address (in no particular order):

1) A plan for devolution countries. It’s haemorrhaging votes in Scotland and Wales. Is the solution a more centralised or decentralised Union. Instinctively, I’m a unionist. But, there may be value and a demand in more devolution.

2) Immigration. I’m pro-immigration and believe it benefits the nation in so many ways. But, this has been an issue for old working class Labour voters for some time. Promoting an ‘Australian style points system’ is pretty popular with voters. The win-win here is that Australia has high levels of immigration.

3) it needs to put to rest this antisemitism issue. It’s a blight on the party and something that is being used against the party.

4) Jobs creation. Depending on Covid-19 and Brexit, may be a big issue going into the next day election.

5) Regional Rejuvenation. How are they going to bring these old communities back to life? The Preston Model is an interesting case study, and one of the few places to remain Labour.

6) Other areas it needs to focus on: increase police funding (having worked in security, I got an insight into how thinly spread they are); increase vocational courses (not everyone needs Uni, 50% was arbitrary number); don’t be seen to be giving out too many ‘freebies’ (the broadband policy was not well received). I’ve skimmed over these points massively.

Look, I’m a cosmopolitan, university educated person from a v working class background. But, I like the idea of Blue Labour at this moment. Frankly, I think it’s probably the direction the party needs to go in if it is to survive and win votes.

These are all good points, I guess I'm just close to thinking that no matter what they did, they wouldn't win because of the electoral maths or the Tory machine churning out some soundbites, holding up some pints and picking up another majority. Just a Scandinavian born in the wrong country haha

shmmeee · Jun 26, 2020

stupot07 said:
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Really good thread. I think I still come down on the “oh come on that’s a stretch” side, but I get when Jewish people are twitchy about this stuff especially when as she says Labour have spent four years looking at AS in detail and what is and isn’t acceptable. Like I say the smart move is to not talk about Israel at all.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
I think you’re in the weeds of detail too much. Majority of swing voters go with the mood of the country rather than a detailed policy analysis and stuff like devolution means nothing outside of the politically engaged who have made their mind up already.

There’s two routes to power in the U.K.: you marry the liberal student cities with the socially conservative working class over a left wing economic program both support. That means patriotism, tough on crime and benefits cheats, immigration controls, plus investment in services and infrastructure.

Or you go right wing economics, low tax, low regulation, and try and get the Lib Dem and soft Tory vote.

What you can’t do is the Corbyn tactic of left wing liberalism of the students and woke middle class because they’re all concentrated in the same place.

Social attitude studies show consistently the U.K. is a left wing socially conservative country. IMO that’s the Labour route to power. Marry some element of Corbynite economics and investment with a focus on jobs and training, with a tabloid style social conservatism. That was Blair’s route and it doesn’t mean you can’t do liberal things like improving conditions for minorities, but you need the political capital from the country by draping yourself in the flag and hating the same things they do.

As a Labour member for the economics first and the social stuff second that’s fine by me but you’ll lose a lot of young idealistic activists which some would have an issue with. Personally I think the ground war is less and less important these days.

Even simpler than that, just go on age. Labour win with under 45s and get annihilated with over 50s who always turn out in bigger numbers.

Nick · Jun 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
@Nick I think you’re missing the “why mention the Jews at all” angle.

Like the people who pop into the George Floyd thread to drop statistics about black on black crime. It’s factually correct but the timing and placement of such facts makes you wonder about their agenda.

I have said that I get that now.

My point is how it's a wild, anti-semetic conspiracy theory?

David O'Day · Jun 26, 2020

stupot07 said:
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Nah, the leaps in that thread are just too much. To say it is AS due to things not linked to it like "jews are trying to start a race war" and "Jews are accused of racism against black people" scan like you are trying to find a way to classify something as AS not that what was said is AS.

shmmeee · Jun 26, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Even simpler than that, just go on age. Labour win with under 45s and get annihilated with over 50s who always turn out in bigger numbers.

Age is a proxy for education as well. There’s a lot of non uni educated people with a chip on their shoulder and Labour has done very little to help or try and understand their issues instead choosing to wang on about tuition fees again.

Also as you age you move more into the asset owning class (homeownership, pensions) and become more conservative economically as well as socially as you don’t have the adaptability of the young to shocks to your income.

Nick · Jun 26, 2020

stupot07 said:
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

I mean, the fact there has to be loads of tweets to try and figure out a way to it being offensive says enough.

Maybe if it's offensive to say Israeli's train US cops, the best thing to do is to get Israeli's to stop training US cops.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
Age is a proxy for education as well. There’s a lot of non uni educated people with a chip on their shoulder and Labour has done very little to help or try and understand their issues instead choosing to wang on about tuition fees again.

Also as you age you move more into the asset owning class (homeownership, pensions) and become more conservative economically as well as socially as you don’t have the adaptability of the young to shocks to your income.

I don't think you'd lose many under 45s by adapting to that.

Liquid Gold · Jun 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
Really good thread. I think I still come down on the “oh come on that’s a stretch” side, but I get when Jewish people are twitchy about this stuff especially when as she says Labour have spent four years looking at AS in detail and what is and isn’t acceptable. Like I say the smart move is to not talk about Israel at all.

This is where things get uncomfortable for me. They have an incredibly repressive regime there and to avoid talking about it and still claim to be progressive is nonsense. You can criticise Saudi Arabia without being Islamaphobic so you can criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic.

shmmeee · Jun 26, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I don't think you'd lose many under 45s by adapting to that.

It’s a balance isn’t it. I’d like to look at various social attitudes and it’s need some very clever messaging Blair style so both sides take away what they want from it.

Im sure there are some at the extremes that would quit the party if we ever did anything patriotic or tough on crime or for lower immigration, but frankly they’re concentrated in strongholds and who else they gonna vote for?

shmmeee · Jun 26, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
This is where things get uncomfortable for me. They have an incredibly repressive regime there and to avoid talking about it and still claim to be progressive is nonsense. You can criticise Saudi Arabia without being Islamaphobic so you can criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic.

Nope agree with you. But realistically speaking we can’t do anything out of power and it won’t help us get into power so it’s only got downsides to get involved in now. Once we’re in then let’s go full bore towards a peace process. But until then we’re just going to have to focus on the U.K. IMO.

Nick · Jun 26, 2020

What does it mean if you don't like SAS Who Dares Wins on Channel 4?

If you mention anything does it mean you are racist against the UK?

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 26, 2020

Nick said:
I mean, the fact there has to be loads of tweets to try and figure out a way to it being offensive says enough.

Maybe if it's offensive to say Israeli's train US cops, the best thing to do is to get Israeli's to stop training US cops.

Several American politicians were hounded as anti-Semites for pointing out that there's a huge pro-Israel lobby (AIPAC) that holds excessive influence over their foreign policy.

Liquid Gold · Jun 26, 2020

I also think if you avoid taking about Israel you basically give ammunition to the mad anti-semites who think Jews control everything.

Brighton Sky Blue · Jun 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
It’s a balance isn’t it. I’d like to look at various social attitudes and it’s need some very clever messaging Blair style so both sides take away what they want from it.

Im sure there are some at the extremes that would quit the party if we ever did anything patriotic or tough on crime or for lower immigration, but frankly they’re concentrated in strongholds and who else they gonna vote for?

Yep it's all in the framing. Though I think it would be prudent to start making friends with some press barons

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jun 26, 2020

shmmeee said:
I think you’re in the weeds of detail too much. Majority of swing voters go with the mood of the country rather than a detailed policy analysis and stuff like devolution means nothing outside of the politically engaged who have made their mind up already.

To be honest though you put all the stuff he suggests in the manifesto and most of it won't get looked at by the vast majority of people. So you could have all of that but focus the message on a couple of policies that you think will play well, keep the message simple rather than focus on specifics and get a decent three word slogan.

stupot07 · Jun 26, 2020

David O'Day said:
Nah, the leaps in that thread are just too much. To say it is AS due to things not linked to it like "jews are trying to start a race war" and "Jews are accused of racism against black people" scan like you are trying to find a way to classify something as AS not that what was said is AS.

The problem is, I'm guessing the majority of not all posting opinions on this thread are not Jewish and haven't experienced or don't understand AS, so dont understand the nuances on what on the face of it looks like a completely innocent comment. I'm not Jewish, I dont understand it.

It looks tenuous at best but give the what the labour party have gone through with AS, Starmer had to act decisively, the jewish community have welcomed his swift action and the matter should be done and dusted. She has lost her job, she is still an mp.

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Nick · Jun 26, 2020

Liquid Gold said:
I also think if you avoid taking about Israel you basically give ammunition to the mad anti-semites who think Jews control everything.

Exactly.

Surely it's more offensive when people are going out of their way to make up batshit stories to be offended by an actual fact?

I mean, if it's offensive to mention Israelis offering training on how to fuck people up maybe they should stop doing it so people don't mention it?

Ian1779 · Jun 26, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
To be honest though you put all the stuff he suggests in the manifesto and most of it won't get looked at by the vast majority of people. So you could have all of that but focus the message on a couple of policies that you think will play well, keep the message simple rather than focus on specifics and get a decent three word slogan.

‘For the many not the few’ worked well for a Labour in 2017. Boris’ ‘Get Brexit done’ was even better in 2019.

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