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Read reasons behind rejection of Sisu's application to appeal (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter SimonGilbert
  • Start date Jan 22, 2015
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SimonGilbert

Telegraph Tea Boy
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #1
Reasons behind failure of Coventry City owners Sisu's latest Ricoh Arena legal challenge:

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/judge-criticises-coventry-city-fc-8495107
 

skybluebeduff

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #2
One day, I hope to read exciting football news about CCFC...



One day...
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #3
Simon we have no keeper for Saturday and are drifting down to league 2. Any chance you can ask the club anything about that?
 

Sub

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #4
Simon could you ask pressley why he keeps telling players they have no future at the club and then telling then they are going nowhere ? And could you point out it makes him look even more clueless than normal ?
 
Last edited: Jan 22, 2015

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #5
SISU's lawyers must love them.
 
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SimonGilbert

Telegraph Tea Boy
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #6
You can read the full document here, should you be so inclined.

https://www.facebook.com/TheSimonGilbert/posts/552056384897606
 
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Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #7
Simon, do you know why or what's the point to sisu carrying on with pointless legal appeals etc? I don't get it as its costly and not realistic.

Thanks in advance as you know more than me.
 
K

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #8
A great article tbf, it basically confirms no hope and no chance so why continue? Anyone?

An interesting read but nothing we didn't know already tbh. No news of players in or climbing the league. League 2 here we come. Dagenham and York beware.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #9
Kingokings204 said:
Simon, do you know why or what's the point to sisu carrying on with pointless legal appeals etc? I don't get it as its costly and not realistic.

Thanks in advance as you know more than me.
Click to expand...

I have a theory on that. The only thing I can think of is that a certain company is fighting to keep their "we batter people in court" reputation.

If anyone else has a better theory I'd love to hear it.
 
K

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #10
skybluetony176 said:
I have a theory on that. The only thing I can think of is that a certain company is fighting to keep their "we batter people in court" reputation.

If anyone else has a better theory I'd love to hear it.
Click to expand...

And me. Sorry I just don't get it. Sisu don't seem to benefit in any way.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #11
How much is the rejection of an oral hearing going to cost?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #12
When mentioning new evidence it says "new ground was unarguable" does that mean it wasn't considered as it was new or that it was considered and wasn't relevant?

I'm increasingly of the opinion we're going to see a second JR, or equivalent, launched by SISU around the sale to Wasps. The flaw, for want of a better word, in the JR process seems to be it only considers a snapshot, by taking aim at another target SISU could extend this pretty much indefinetaly couldn't they?
 
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Smudge1987

New Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #13
And people question why fans have turned their backs on the club, so tiresome having nothing but negative goings on at the club with no real end in sight.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #14
chiefdave said:
When mentioning new evidence it says "new ground was unarguable" does that mean it wasn't considered as it was new or that it was considered and wasn't relevant?

I'm increasingly of the opinion we're going to see a second JR, or equivalent, launched by SISU around the sale to Wasps. The flaw, for want of a better word, in the JR process seems to be it only considers a snapshot, by taking aim at another target SISU could extend this pretty much indefinetaly couldn't they?
Click to expand...

At work so can't read Simon's link, but the article seems to make it clear that it was rejected by Hickinbottom as it had no merit and this judge agrees that even if it had been allowed, it wouldn't have changed anything.

Regarding your second point, I'd assume that they can launch another JR about the sale to Wasps if they want. But to be honest, considering how far off having a case they've been so far, I wouldn't be surprised to see it thrown out at the first hurdle. Of course, the last one was also thrown out at the first hurdle, only to be allowed at the second. So yes, as you say this could drag on for a bit.

Regarding Tony's point: it's all about causing hassle for CCC, probably out of spite at this point. Considering the sick tactics Sisu have employed with their critics, I don't think this is anything to do with business. They like to make things personal and cause people to give in for non-legal reasons.
 
Last edited: Jan 22, 2015

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #15
Captain Dart said:
How much is the rejection of an oral hearing going to cost?
Click to expand...

Oral is usually cheaper than a full hearing I heard
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #16
shmmeee said:
At work so can't read Simon's link, but the article seems to make it clear that it was rejected by Hickinbottom as it had no merit and this judge agrees that even if it had been allowed, it wouldn't have changed anything.

Regarding your second point, I'd assume that they can launch another JR about the sale to Wasps if they want. But to be honest, considering how far off having a case they've been so far, I wouldn't be surprised to see it thrown out at the first hurdle. Of course, the last one was also thrown out at the first hurdle, only to be allowed at the second. So yes, as you say this could drag on for a bit.
Click to expand...

That appears to be what the judge is saying
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #17
fernandopartridge said:
Oral is usually cheaper than a full hearing I heard
Click to expand...

What about half and half?
 
T

The Gentleman

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #18
chiefdave said:
When mentioning new evidence it says "new ground was unarguable" does that mean it wasn't considered as it was new or that it was considered and wasn't relevant?

I'm increasingly of the opinion we're going to see a second JR, or equivalent, launched by SISU around the sale to Wasps. The flaw, for want of a better word, in the JR process seems to be it only considers a snapshot, by taking aim at another target SISU could extend this pretty much indefinetaly couldn't they?
Click to expand...

As you and others now seem desperate for this legal crap to continue, what are you hoping to gain at the end of it?

To me, lets just play along for a minute and say that they get a second review and by some miracle they win, what will come of it? Do you think that we will get the Ricoh or even a share in it? Do you think that if Sisu get compensation they are likely to plough some of that in a charge to the Premiership? Do you think they will plough some of it into building a new ground? Or do you they it'll go some way to giving Joy's investors a return?

Remember Joy's words about the people she cares about most and then really have a think what an American woman really thinks about CCFC and the chances of her spending any more money on us because by the time a second JR has run it's course after the appeal from the council CCFC might well be a conference team at best.
 

skybluebeduff

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #19
Why do SISU continue as a business with CCFC?
Why would any company accept loss every year and be happy with it, then add court costs towards the added debt?
Have any other team been in court more times than us in the past decade?
What is their end game?
Why are we the only club in the football league to be owned by a hedge fund?
 

Skyblueweeman

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #20
Anyone else think that 'Oral Hearing' sounds a bit smutty?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
T

The Gentleman

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #21
Skyblueweeman said:
Anyone else think that 'Oral Hearing' sounds a bit smutty?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Especially as someone said it is cheaper than a full one.............
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #22
The Gentleman said:
Especially as someone said it is cheaper than a full one.............
Click to expand...

It was intended as a joke tbf
 

Rusty Trombone

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #23
chiefdave said:
When mentioning new evidence it says "new ground was unarguable" does that mean it wasn't considered as it was new or that it was considered and wasn't relevant?

I'm increasingly of the opinion we're going to see a second JR, or equivalent, launched by SISU around the sale to Wasps. The flaw, for want of a better word, in the JR process seems to be it only considers a snapshot, by taking aim at another target SISU could extend this pretty much indefinetaly couldn't they?
Click to expand...


I believe the 'new ground' (no, not that one) was considered, havent listed all the reasons, but the conclusion is below. Link to the JR here http://www.ccfc.co.uk/news/article/judgement-judicial-review-coventry-city-1707531.aspx

MR JUSTICE HICKINBOTTOM
Approved Judgment
R (Sky Blue Sports & Leisure Ltd) v
Coventry City Council

161. Mr Goudie and Mr Quigley submitted that, the Third Claimant (CCFCH) having been
dissolved, the First and Second Claimants have insufficient standing to bring this new
claim. I did not find that submission strong. However, they submitted, with
considerably more force, that the Claimants were simply too late to make this entirely
new claim, and permission should be refused on the grounds of delay alone. Had I
considered any part of Ground 2 to be arguable, I would have taken into account the
extraordinary delay in making this claim to which (contrary to Mr Thompson’s
submission) I do not consider any failure on the Council’s part to give disclosure
materially contributed. However, for the reasons I have given, I do not consider any
element of Ground 2 to be arguable, on the merits; and, on that basis, I refuse
permission to proceed.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #24
The Gentleman said:
As you and others now seem desperate for this legal crap to continue, what are you hoping to gain at the end of it?
Click to expand...

Hang on, when have I said I want legal action to continue. I'd love nothing more than this all to be settled and a bright future for the club.

Equally I would very much like to know the truth, and by that I mean the truth regarding everyone involved in this. By the end of it I'd like to know the truth and if anyone, on any side, has done anything underhand or even illegal I would expect them to suffer the appropriate punishment.

The Gentleman said:
To me, lets just play along for a minute and say that they get a second review and by some miracle they win, what will come of it? Do you think that we will get the Ricoh or even a share in it? Do you think that if Sisu get compensation they are likely to plough some of that in a charge to the Premiership? Do you think they will plough some of it into building a new ground? Or do you they it'll go some way to giving Joy's investors a return?
Click to expand...

Let me be very very clear here. I am not saying I want another JR as that would mean years more in limbo, what I am saying is I suspect this is the route SISU will take.

A large part of the argument last time seemed to be that CCC had every right to protect a company they owned a share in. That wouldn't be the case in a JR involving the sale to Wasps.

There's also Lucas claims that she was only passing on information provided to her by council officers, presumably referring to Reeves and West. If that's the case then surely by now Reeves and West should have been suspended pending disciplinary action as it sounds a lot to me like fraud by false representation if what Lucas is saying is correct. Of course the other option is that Lucas is scapegoating them and the original claims that she was not telling the truth are valid, in either case there are questions to answer.

What could be the outcome of a victory for SISU, who knows? I can certainly see a scenario where CCC have to request immediate repayment of the loan, could that potentially open the door to us gaining at least part ownership of ACL. If Wasps can source alternative funding it would certainly be a possibility.

The other option would be SISU claiming compensation for lost earnings. If they successfully argue that they have lost millions through the actions of CCC and now have a bill for £20m plus to build a new stadium how much of that might they possibly be awarded in compensation.

Ultimately I think the best possible outcome for us now, be it through a business transaction or legal challenges, is a 50% stake in ACL. Given where we are now I'd be more than happy if that could be achieved at a reasonable cost. Whilst I would rather Wasps weren't here at all, for franchising reasons more than anything, at this point I would take equal billing with them. If that could be achieved maybe the club could move forward and look to make savings in other areas such as shared ticket facilities, shared shop, maybe even sharing a training complex. In fact I think that route is the only way we will see a future for the club that doesn't have us staying at this level or lower for many years to come.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #25
Rusty Trombone said:
I believe the 'new ground' (no, not that one) was considered, havent listed all the reasons, but the conclusion is below. Link to the JR here http://www.ccfc.co.uk/news/article/judgement-judicial-review-coventry-city-1707531.aspx

MR JUSTICE HICKINBOTTOM
Approved Judgment
R (Sky Blue Sports & Leisure Ltd) v
Coventry City Council

161. Mr Goudie and Mr Quigley submitted that, the Third Claimant (CCFCH) having been
dissolved, the First and Second Claimants have insufficient standing to bring this new
claim. I did not find that submission strong. However, they submitted, with
considerably more force, that the Claimants were simply too late to make this entirely
new claim, and permission should be refused on the grounds of delay alone. Had I
considered any part of Ground 2 to be arguable, I would have taken into account the
extraordinary delay in making this claim to which (contrary to Mr Thompson’s
submission) I do not consider any failure on the Council’s part to give disclosure
materially contributed. However, for the reasons I have given, I do not consider any
element of Ground 2 to be arguable, on the merits; and, on that basis, I refuse
permission to proceed.
Click to expand...

Presumably then the new ground can't reasonably form part of JR#2 due to the further passage of time? Or was it passage of time with the individual case?
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #26
I would think it is going to take some exceptional talking to turn that around at an oral hearing. The appeal judge verdict does not leave much room for doubt does it

On to the Supreme Court then European Court of Justice then?
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #27
If SISU believe that JR#2 will be more successful that #1.. then why not knock that one on the head.

That way everyone can support them in regards to the sale to Wasps... which we are all vehemently opposed to of course as a matter of principle..... right?
 

Sub

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #28
oldskyblue58 said:
On to the Supreme Court then European Court of Justice then?
Click to expand...

Can you please keep comments like that to yourself OSB
 

Rusty Trombone

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #29
fernandopartridge said:
Presumably then the new ground can't reasonably form part of JR#2 due to the further passage of time? Or was it passage of time with the individual case?
Click to expand...

I am happy to be corrected by anyone with proper legal knowledge, but it looks to me that JR2 is not really linked at all to JR1, surely JR2 is just about the new loan terms to ACL, and would concentrate on how that particular decision was made. Looks to me though that a loan at 5% is a commercial loan. Obviously at the time the club said this new legal challenge was merely protecting JR1, maybe that's right.

Although the same article also said “Today’s action does not change our short, medium and long-term aims, and does not impact the financial resources available to manager Steven Pressley to spend on the pitch during the January transfer window". Again this is probably correct, there was no money, and this has not changed.
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #30
Ian1779 said:
If SISU believe that JR#2 will be more successful that #1.. then why not knock that one on the head.

That way everyone can support them in regards to the sale to Wasps... which we are all vehemently opposed to of course as a matter of principle..... right?
Click to expand...

They'd have to prove they had a right to bid with LTD In liquidation and the lease broken which I believe was a condition to that right
 

Senior Vick from Alicante

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #31
The over lying worry for me is the fact that Sisu can keep on bringing appeals and court cases until the cows come home. The debt burden of all the shenanigans will just be put on the club making it unsalable for any potential purchaser. And when they finally admit defeat and were no longer in the top tears of the league because the money was spent in the courts and not on the pitch they will liquidate. Sick to the back teeth of them!
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #32
oldskyblue58 said:
I would think it is going to take some exceptional talking to turn that around at an oral hearing. The appeal judge verdict does not leave much room for doubt does it

On to the Supreme Court then European Court of Justice then?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that there's a route to that court if they get bounced out at the oral application. I think that might be the end of the road for this particular action. However I'm not sure that this prevents them from taking further action regarding the sale to Wasps.

Personally, I'd have no problem with that. As chiefdave says, what's gone on around the ACL sale to Wasps would clearly merit further attention anyway.

I suppose there is the very slim hope that CCFC might benefit in some way, but more than that I'd just like to know that everything that CCC have done is completely above board here. This constant secrecy isn't encouraging.

I'm also not happy that it seems CCC is still on the hook if Wasps fail - in many ways this plan is far worse for the taxpayer than the one suggested by Fisher which at least involved the club buying out the mortgage. Why didn't the council insist on that from Wasps I wonder? They now get no benefit if ACL is a success - but are at risk if Wasps and subsequently ACL fail.

Before you say it, by the way, see if you can spot any apology to SISU here, OK?
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #33
Sky Blue Pete said:
Simon we have no keeper for Saturday and are drifting down to league 2. Any chance you can ask the club anything about that?
Click to expand...

There busy in court.
Can it wait until Monday ?
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #34
Senior Vick from Alicante said:
The over lying worry for me is the fact that Sisu can keep on bringing appeals and court cases until the cows come home. The debt burden of all the shenanigans will just be put on the club making it unsalable for any potential purchaser. And when they finally admit defeat and were no longer in the top tears of the league because the money was spent in the courts and not on the pitch they will liquidate. Sick to the back teeth of them!
Click to expand...

It's a fair point, but as has been picked up elsewhere, it's not as though they're putting money into the club now anyway. In truth, under FFP and without other income streams, there's only so much that they could throw into the club now isn't there? Happy to be corrected if I've misunderstood though...
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #35
Kingokings204 said:
Simon, do you know why or what's the point to sisu carrying on with pointless legal appeals etc? I don't get it as its costly and not realistic.

Thanks in advance as you know more than me.
Click to expand...

It's the only thing they know about football ?
 
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