Potential investors (1 Viewer)

dongonzalos · Mar 17, 2013

Can this be discussed so I can get my head around it.

I have no doubt there will be lots of things I am not aware of or didn't think about.

If SISU go into admin.

Can a potential buyer buy the club.
If so with SISU as the main person who the debts are owed to does the buyer have to buy the club from SISU.
If so roughly how much for?

dongonzalos · Mar 17, 2013

If they then buy the club can they buy out ACL
If so how much do you think ACL would cost?

Mucca Mad Boys · Mar 17, 2013

I'm a potential investor...

dongonzalos · Mar 17, 2013

If you could buy the club for 10 million. Then ACL for 30 million.
Could you negotiate to pay the loan only to the council.

Would you still make a profit with the expenses of running a football club after the profits from running a football club and ACL including the profits of the Ricoh for other events.

If you managed to get promotion you could sell the club for the increased value of the fact it is not at an admin price.
Plus the fact it is now a championship club.

Then sell ACL on the basis of a successful football club.
Plus ACL's value would have increased due to the railway station.

dongonzalos · Mar 17, 2013

If any of the above is correct why are people so shocked anyone would be interested.

oakey · Mar 17, 2013

Maybe because there is no evidence these owners wish to sell?

stupot07 · Mar 17, 2013

Is ACL worth £30m? It made what £1m this year with the Olympics

Grendel · Mar 18, 2013

dongonzalos said:
If you could buy the club for 10 million. Then ACL for 30 million.
Could you negotiate to pay the loan only to the council.

Would you still make a profit with the expenses of running a football club after the profits from running a football club and ACL including the profits of the Ricoh for other events.

If you managed to get promotion you could sell the club for the increased value of the fact it is not at an admin price.
Plus the fact it is now a championship club.

Then sell ACL on the basis of a successful football club.
Plus ACL's value would have increased due to the railway station.

The club would be on minus points next season. It won't get promotion. The administrators will have moved players of any worth on so it will be a poor squad.
Why would any "investor" waste money on that?

Paxman II · Mar 18, 2013

The squad would be decimated, you are correct grendel.
It is far better to see SISU survive ownership inthe interim while they still keep funding the club, allow a deal to be done that gives revenue streams needed and lower rent, giving them opportunity to regain some of their investment and then depart at an agreed point. Why can't they do that? Just agree they will go after a certain amount of investment return is realised.

Whatever they do or don't do any new owner will want at least the same considerations if not more.

sky blue john · Mar 18, 2013

Who says Sisu are not going to decimate and sell squad anyway ?

coundonskyblue · Mar 18, 2013

Paxman II said:
The squad would be decimated, you are correct grendel. 
It is far better to see SISU survive ownership inthe interim while they still keep funding the club, allow a deal to be done that gives revenue streams needed and lower rent, giving them opportunity to regain some of their investment and then depart at an agreed point. Why can't they do that? Just agree they will go after a certain amount of investment return is realised. 
 
Whatever they do or don't do any new owner will want at least the same considerations if not more.

Because if sisu had that as their plan they would just decimate the squad until they got their money back. That would leave the club in league 2 at best. Who would want to invest in us then?

blueflint · Mar 18, 2013

sky blue john said:
Who says Sisu are not going to decimate and sell squad anyway ?

+they have done up to now

torchomatic · Mar 18, 2013

Or that any potential investor either exists or can afford it.

I hope they do exist.

oakey said:
Maybe because there is no evidence these owners wish to sell?

mark82 · Mar 18, 2013

coundonskyblue said:


Because if sisu had that as their plan they would just decimate the squad until they got their money back. That would leave the club in league 2 at best. Who would want to invest in us then?

They haven't decimated the squad this year though have they. Robins and Thorn were both able to bring in players.

Godiva · Mar 18, 2013

dongonzalos said:
Can this be discussed so I can get my head around it.

I have no doubt there will be lots of things I am not aware of or didn't think about.

If SISU go into admin.

Can a potential buyer buy the club.
If so with SISU as the main person who the debts are owed to does the buyer have to buy the club from SISU.
If so roughly how much for?

Don, please allow me to correct a few misleading points in your post. Not a go at you, so bear with me.

If SISU go into admin .... SISU are not going into administration. It's the club that may go into admininistration.

with SISU as the main person ..... SISU are a hedge fund, not a person.

who the debts are owed to ..... the debts are not owed to SISU, but to funds that are managed by SISU.

italiahorse · Mar 18, 2013

stupot07 said:
Is ACL worth £30m? It made what £1m this year with the Olympics

ACL is everything, don't we just want the stadium ?

mark82 · Mar 18, 2013

stupot07 said:
Is ACL worth £30m? It made what £1m this year with the Olympics

The stadium and land may be worth that. Value of the assets you need to look at. The £1 million profit was for last year (ie before the Olympics). It was at a stage where we were more or less up to date with rent (so without CCFC they would have made a small loss).

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 18, 2013

sky blue john said:
Who says Sisu are not going to decimate and sell squad anyway ?

ACL's third party debt order?

stupot07 · Mar 18, 2013

mark82 said:
The stadium and land may be worth that. Value of the assets you need to look at. The £1 million profit was for last year (ie before the Olympics). It was at a stage where we were more or less up to date with rent (so without CCFC they would have made a small loss).

ACL don't own the stadium they own a 43 year lease on the stadium.

mark82 · Mar 18, 2013

stupot07 said:
ACL don't own the stadium they own a 43 year lease on the stadium.

Higgs & council own the stadium.

skyblue2k · Mar 18, 2013

Coventry City Council own the stadium, ACL own a lease to run the stadium.

ACL is a jointly owned company made up of the Council and Higgs Trust.

The money talked about to buy out the Higgs Trust, buys you a share in the stadium management company ACL.

Correct me if i am wrong

oldskyblue58 · Mar 18, 2013

Council own the freehold

ACL own the long leasehold which now has about 42 years left to run

Council and Charity own ACL 50:50

a limited company is classed as a completely seperate legal entity in law - "veil of incorporation"

skybluesam66 · Mar 18, 2013

or put it this way

the stadium cost about 100m +

ccfc paid 20m
CCFc attracted tesco for 60m
council and higgs put 40m

and for this ccfc got nothing

dongonzalos · Mar 18, 2013

Godiva said:
Don, please allow me to correct a few misleading points in your post. Not a go at you, so bear with me.

If SISU go into admin .... SISU are not going into administration. It's the club that may go into admininistration.

with SISU as the main person ..... SISU are a hedge fund, not a person.

who the debts are owed to ..... the debts are not owed to SISU, but to funds that are managed by SISU.

Thanks Godiva

Think with those changes it is still the same point.

It still sounds to me like it is a very appealing option.

Houdi · Mar 18, 2013

dongonzalos said:
If any of the above is correct why are people so shocked anyone would be interested.

Because there are an awful lot of 'IFS',in there.its the cold reality that matters.If any of us acquired £10 billion we could buy the club,acquire the stadium,pay off any debts etc...If

Waldorf · Mar 18, 2013

skybluesam66 said:
or put it this way

the stadium cost about 100m +

ccfc paid 20m
CCFc attracted tesco for 60m
council and higgs put 40m

and for this ccfc got nothing

all correct except for:
The council bought the land
The council stepped in and built the arena when CCFC's plans went belly up
The council got outside money from Government and the EU
The council guaranteed the loan that was needed to bridge the gap in funding
(Oh, and it was the council that did the Tesco deal, not CCFC)

torchomatic · Mar 18, 2013

So why did Bryan Richardson get paid £300K for doing it then?

Waldorf said:
(Oh, and it was the council that did the Tesco deal, not CCFC)

Godiva · Mar 18, 2013

dongonzalos said:
Thanks Godiva

Think with those changes it is still the same point.

It still sounds to me like it is a very appealing option.

I know too little about the cards each party is holding and the replications of their potential actions to form an oppinion if administratrion is the most appealing option right now.
I believe that ACL and ccfc should be one entity controlled by the same owner and if the administration path leads towards that goal, then fine. But I am not especially confident.

The reason I corrected you is that after all these years since the takeover, many are still confused about the ownership of the club ... and I think it leads to oppinions that carries unwanted replications.
Some are so angry with sisu and want them severely punished. They think sisu will lose a fortune if they are forced out of the city, when in fact they will not. Their clients investments will be lost - it's not sisu's money.

Replications could be that the club goes out of existense. Or we get new owners but are relegated to league 2 or even non-league.
ACL will never receive the arrears through our administration. And new owners will in any case demand a rent reduction. Or demand ACL be sold to the club for the value of the council loan.
And if no new owners are found, the club will either cease to exist OR sisu will regain ownership on the same conditions as a new owner would.

And the winner is???
I can only see one! The administrator - who will remove a huge chunk of pounds from the club. Something between £0.5m-£1m.
Money the fans are paying!
ACL will never receive the arrears through this administration. And new owners will in any case demand a rent reduction. Or demand ACL be sold to the club for the value of the council loan.
And if no new owners are found, the club will either cease to exist OR sisu will regain ownership on the same contion as a new owner would.

torchomatic · Mar 18, 2013

BR: I can show you the document where I did the deal with the Tesco chairman directly. We bought 88 acres from British Gas. I sold 30 of the 88 acres where it is now for £66.5m which was the highest price Tesco had ever paid for an out of London site. And there were no fees so the club didn't pay anyone because I did it direct with Tesco, and that saved the club £3m in fees.

skybluesam66 · Mar 18, 2013

if we look at net cost of 50m after tesco and grants
20m was paid by the club 40% - for which they have got nothing

Black6Osprey · Mar 18, 2013

Waldorf said:
all correct except for:
The council bought the land
The council stepped in and built the arena when CCFC's plans went belly up
The council got outside money from Government and the EU
The council guaranteed the loan that was needed to bridge the gap in funding
(Oh, and it was the council that did the Tesco deal, not CCFC)

I suggest you get out your Boys Book of Facts and have another read.

dongonzalos · Mar 18, 2013

Godiva said:
I know too little about the cards each party is holding and the replications of their potential actions to form an oppinion if administratrion is the most appealing option right now.
I believe that ACL and ccfc should be one entity controlled by the same owner and if the administration path leads towards that goal, then fine. But I am not especially confident.

The reason I corrected you is that after all these years since the takeover, many are still confused about the ownership of the club ... and I think it leads to oppinions that carries unwanted replications.
Some are so angry with sisu and want them severely punished. They think sisu will lose a fortune if they are forced out of the city, when in fact they will not. Their clients investments will be lost - it's not sisu's money.

Replications could be that the club goes out of existense. Or we get new owners but are relegated to league 2 or even non-league.
ACL will never receive the arrears through our administration. And new owners will in any case demand a rent reduction. Or demand ACL be sold to the club for the value of the council loan.
And if no new owners are found, the club will either cease to exist OR sisu will regain ownership on the same conditions as a new owner would.

And the winner is???
I can only see one! The administrator - who will remove a huge chunk of pounds from the club. Something between £0.5m-£1m.
Money the fans are paying!
ACL will never receive the arrears through this administration. And new owners will in any case demand a rent reduction. Or demand ACL be sold to the club for the value of the council loan.
And if no new owners are found, the club will either cease to exist OR sisu will regain ownership on the same contion as a new owner would.

SISU's reputation and in particular's Joys is built on getting a return for their investors.

Joy herself may not lose a fortune but SISU as a company would be destroyed.

Joy's reputation as a business women would also be destroyed.

However my original point is.

SISU are the main debtor (investors money)
SISU when they make their statements say we SISZu have put 45 million into CCFC.

What happens when you are the person who is owed the most money if it is your company that is put into administration?

dongonzalos · Mar 18, 2013

Houdi said:
Because there are an awful lot of 'IFS',in there.its the cold reality that matters.If any of us acquired £10 billion we could buy the club,acquire the stadium,pay off any debts etc...If

The crux is
Is owning ACL and CCFC an attractive proposition at the right price?

dongonzalos · Mar 18, 2013

stupot07 said:
Is ACL worth £30m? It made what £1m this year with the Olympics

That is its profit for one year and I believe that is before pre Olympic profits.

You have to pay for the potential as well
If you own both ACL and CCFC and you know you will run CCFC sensibly and successfully then you increase the value of ACL.

A promotion will increase the profits and value of ACL as will the railway station.

Godiva · Mar 18, 2013

dongonzalos said:
SISU's reputation and in particular's Joys is built on getting a return for their investors.

Joy herself may not lose a fortune but SISU as a company would be destroyed.

Joy's reputation as a business women would also be destroyed.

I don't know how big the total portfolio of sisu is, but I am pretty sure it is many times bigger than ccfc.
Thing is with investments - some pays a dividend, some don't. Some pays big time, some lose big time.
Investors knows this is the nature of the game. You can't have only wins, there will be losses too.

Hedge funds are more speculative than 'normal' venture or investment funds. Their clients knows this, and they accept a larger risk.

So should sisu's funds lose all they have invested in ccfc, it won't hurt sisu or their reputation.
It won't destroy Joy's reputation. Maybe not even produce a dent.

So you are praying for an outcome that won't happen.

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