Our squad (& fans who harp on about no other manager being able to do better...) (8 Viewers)

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe · Nov 28, 2011

kduffy said:
You are 100% spot on. The notion no-one could make a difference is utterly stupid.

Unlike the notion that this is only relevant on a forum as our board will not replace Thorn who is cheap and on a short term contract. I think the accusations levelled at fans who are behind Thorn are a little harsh. No one has claimed that he is invincible, that he gets nothing wrong, that he has not cost us a single point this season. The argument has always seemed to me that his hands are all but tied by the board and his playing staff. I think calling us a comfortably mid-table outfit is pie in the sky. We are skint and it shows. Player for player, we struggle. Add an inexperienced manager and a complete lack of investment, it doesn't bode well. If we are determined to attribute blame to one party and one party only, it's SISU for me. Yes, Thorn doesn't always seem to get it right and the points tally is not favourable. Do I, for example, blame him in isolation for McSheffrey's performances? Nope, the 29 year old professional footballer that is McSheffrey takes that accolade. We are where we are. It is too simplistic to say 'if you don't think this is Thorn's doing, you are a mug'. The rot runs far deeper.

Grendel · Nov 29, 2011

DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe said:
Unlike the notion that this is only relevant on a forum as our board will not replace Thorn who is cheap and on a short term contract. I think the accusations levelled at fans who are behind Thorn are a little harsh. No one has claimed that he is invincible, that he gets nothing wrong, that he has not cost us a single point this season. The argument has always seemed to me that his hands are all but tied by the board and his playing staff. I think calling us a comfortably mid-table outfit is pie in the sky. We are skint and it shows. Player for player, we struggle. Add an inexperienced manager and a complete lack of investment, it doesn't bode well. If we are determined to attribute blame to one party and one party only, it's SISU for me. Yes, Thorn doesn't always seem to get it right and the points tally is not favourable. Do I, for example, blame him in isolation for McSheffrey's performances? Nope, the 29 year old professional footballer that is McSheffrey takes that accolade. We are where we are. It is too simplistic to say 'if you don't think this is Thorn's doing, you are a mug'. The rot runs far deeper.

Probably right but some people do seem to think Thorn is a good manager or has the potential to be, I don't and I never have done. I believe he sought the job post-Boothroyd, got in and is part of the whole SISU malaise that has ruined the club. He can't be too bothered about McSheffrey - he offered him a contract. Or if he had no say in this he really is a SISU puppet happy to take his dollar while the club sinks even further into the mire. Why blame experienced players for their performances if you can't blame the organ grinder? Sorry enough is enough. I agree SISU will keep him - they are so disinterested they will just let the whole circus carry on. However, if fans started to vent frustration in his direction I beieve he will walk quicker than you would believe.

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 29, 2011

So you resort to bully-boy tactics due to a bizarre conspiracy theory that Thorn is part of the whole SISU scheme? Pathetic. Vent in his direction in public and rest assured, you'll have a fair few of us shouting you down. Good look with shouting THORN OUT when any protest will get taken over by people like me drowning you out with SISU OUT. Thorn isn't SISU, and he's been shat on more by them than any of us.

Macca · Nov 29, 2011

Just a question. Why did Thorn take the job?

Presumably because he thought he could make a difference? Well he hasn't so surely he should consider his future.

And please no "SISU lied to him" crap. If he believed anything they said he was an idiot

Covstu · Nov 29, 2011

i think SISU lied to him.......:laugh::laugh:

Otis · Nov 29, 2011

I think he was an idiot.

skybluesteve76 · Nov 29, 2011

Otis said:
Sorry, but don't get your point at all. I am talking about if Thorn went now and someone else came in. What the hell has that got to do with how many players left in the Summer? Nothing is the answer, The whole point was that it is simply wrong to assume that no other manager could do any better than Thorn with this squad. If Thorn was sacked now and someone took the reigns. What happened in the Summer in that scenario is simply not relevant.

Spot on Otis. Im in no doubt that a new manager with new ideas would be like a breath of fresh air for the players. Also a rocket up the arse for some. I just think Sisu have a plan to bail out soon and because of that there will be no change of manager until they do.

blueflint · Nov 29, 2011

what squad we have none as far as i'm concerned iv'e lost interest we are doomed this season

Grendel · Nov 29, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
So you resort to bully-boy tactics due to a bizarre conspiracy theory that Thorn is part of the whole SISU scheme? Pathetic. Vent in his direction in public and rest assured, you'll have a fair few of us shouting you down. Good look with shouting THORN OUT when any protest will get taken over by people like me drowning you out with SISU OUT. Thorn isn't SISU, and he's been shat on more by them than any of us.

I don't have a conspiracy theory I just see him as a weak individual who will not stand up to them and therefore helps to perpetuate their existence. Most managers would resign if the terms of employment have changed that much. After all if your opinion of him is correct then you would expect another club to see his many talents and snap him up. I will not be shouting in his direction as it is not my style. However, my point is I think it is inevitable people will turn. On CWR Saturday many supporters were calling for his head - more than any other manager I can remember. I have seen fans shout for his removal during the Southampton first half and Cardiff. If we continue to lose human nature dictates that anger will be vented in a direction that can result in change. Sisu out - yes but that is up to them. They are not even in the ground to listen.

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 29, 2011

Macca said:
Just a question. Why did Thorn take the job?

Presumably because he thought he could make a difference? Well he hasn't so surely he should consider his future.

And please no "SISU lied to him" crap. If he believed anything they said he was an idiot

SISU lied to him, and they ALSO lied enough for me to buy a ST. Won't be making that mistake again.

oldskyblue58 · Nov 29, 2011

You know what sums it up to me NLHWC is the reaction of my lad. He loves his football, loves playing it, loves training 3 times a week, loves watching it, loves Fifa 2012 etc, he is proud of supporting CCFC. He hasnt got involved in sites like this so doesnt really understand the finances & politics so i dont comment on it to him. I asked him did he want a season ticket next year and he said no. He then informed me that he was going to Liverpool with his mum when next match is on - he used to love match days home and away ! That can only be a reflection of what he sees on the pitch and his experience on match days. I understand all the reasons behind the scenes for our dismal state but this team and the way it plays is switching him off from the club. I suspect there will be a lot of youngsters feeling that way, and everyone at the club takes a share in blame for doing that (some more than others of course)

Macca · Nov 29, 2011

SISU will go after January

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 29, 2011

Macca said:
SISU will go after January

You seem a lot more confident than I am on that, Macca.

If there's one thing I want for Xmas it's a SISU exit.

Otis · Nov 29, 2011

Macca said:
SISU will go after January

Notice you didn't say which year though.

ICHAN · Nov 29, 2011

AT knew all about how sisu work it is not like he came in fresh of the street and had never worked or knew how they worked so how did they lie to him? oh yes same budget as last year and he beleived them hummm.
NLHWC you bought a season ticket on what sisu said that they were going to do this that and the other, not personal or anything I am just interested why you thought they may not be lying when they have lied for virtually the whole time they have been here.
But it is not just sisu who have done this all boards promise this that and the other before a season starts so people buy season tickets.
This maybe contraversial and is not having a go at any poster but surely if people are happy to continue with AT's record of wins and playing style this season then they must be happy with mediocrity and relegation so why want sisu out because our on field performances are destroying us just as much as sisu are, no other manager would be allowed such privaleges of being able to carry on.
New contracts were given to certain players, who advised that these players should get new contracts? surely not sisu as they know nothing about football as they are never here so someone must have advised them that these players were worthy of new contracts.

Otis · Nov 29, 2011

Very good point. Sisu do need to cut costs. Everyone accepts that. We also knew we faced relegation. Therefore everything is an inevitability and Sisu would be quite rightly gearing us for League One as our team isn't good enough.

Shouldn't we therefore all be quite content? Thorn is a good manager doing the best he can, we have no money and Sisu are trying to reduce the debt.

Everyone's a winner.

Macca · Nov 29, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
You seem a lot more confident than I am on that, Macca.

If there's one thing I want for Xmas it's a SISU exit.

one last transfer payday then they'll scarper I reckon

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 29, 2011

ICHAN said:
AT knew all about how sisu work it is not like he came in fresh of the street and had never worked or knew how they worked so how did they lie to him? oh yes same budget as last year and he beleived them hummm.
NLHWC you bought a season ticket on what sisu said that they were going to do this that and the other, not personal or anything I am just interested why you thought they may not be lying when they have lied for virtually the whole time they have been here.

Because I got so caught up in the adrenalin rush of seeing my team play good, entertaining football for the first time in about 6 years. Because I believed the bullshit about King re-signing-his body language suggested that he was loving it here, then the club announce he is about to sign..because I thought Aron was telling the truth when he said that he wanted stay. I even believed Clouting in a few interviews, and defended Brody after his coffee morning event. I swallowed a load of bullshit. I didn't believe they could really be so blatantly duplicitous once again. I thought they meant it this time. Hah, I suddenly sound like Cheryl Cole taking back Ashley..yeah, I know, I should have known it was all bullshit..but you can't blame a guy for having hope.

I was enjoying last season under Thorn more than any in my life of watching CCFC. It was fantastic, brilliant, exciting, and a full season like that would be a play off challenge at least. You know what happened next. This is why I defend Thorn.

He did a decent job at managing to paint a Van Gogh with a set of crayons...now they're expecting him to conjure up the Sistene Chapel ceiling using nothing more than a twig with some poo on it.

Otis · Nov 29, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
Because I got so caught up in the adrenalin rush of seeing my team play good, entertaining football for the first time in about 6 years. Because I believed the bullshit about King re-signing-his body language suggested that he was loving it here, then the club announce he is about to sign..because I thought Aron was telling the truth when he said that he wanted stay. I even believed Clouting in a few interviews, and defended Brody after his coffee morning event. I swallowed a load of bullshit. I didn't believe they could really be so blatantly duplicitous once again. I thought they meant it this time. Hah, I suddenly sound like Cheryl Cole taking back Ashley..yeah, I know, I should have known it was all bullshit..but you can't blame a guy for having hope.

I was enjoying last season under Thorn more than any in my life of watching CCFC. It was fantastic, brilliant, exciting, and a full season like that would be a play off challenge at least. You know what happened next. This is why I defend Thorn.

He did a decent job at managing to paint a Van Gogh with a set of crayons...now they're expecting him to conjure up the Sistene Chapel ceiling using nothing more than a twig with some poo on it.

"I was enjoying last season under Thorn more than any in my life of watching CCFC. It was fantastic, brilliant, exciting, and a full season like that would be a play off challenge at least. You know what happened next. This is why I defend Thorn. "

This is the bit I don't get. So Thorn's wasn't a honeymoon period then? People on here keep saying managers have honeymoon periods and then they get found out. Seems like Thorn got a free pass that meant he was not entitled to an entrance to the honeymoon suite!! :facepalm:

The football was good last season because we changed the way we played and no-one of the opposition was expecting it. We are doing badly now this season because all the other clubs have now completely sussed us out. Thought that was obvious.

Why on earth would anyone think we would have a season of that football and other teams not being able to cope? Play-offs? That is a joke. Cannot see why anyone would believe that.

coop · Nov 29, 2011

I also, at the end of last season was so looking forward to this season, but it's been awful.Two wins out of 20 just isn't good enough no matter what league your in.So maybe a change of manager will bring another honeymoon period because we fecking need one.

sky blue john · Nov 29, 2011

Otis why are you so blind to the fact that we lost 6 players of the first eleven that were playing the end of last season which have not been replaced and you expect the same results :facepalm:

Otis · Nov 29, 2011

sky blue john said:
Otis why are you so blind to the fact that we lost 6 players of the first eleven that were playing the end of last season which have not been replaced and you expect the same results :facepalm:

I don't expect the same results. Don't think anyone expects the same results. Has anyone said that at all? I have never ever said I expected the same results.

For the eleveny billioneth time....

1. I expected a relegation battle
2. I said from day one the squad was too small.
3. I said we needed reinforcements badly.
4. I said we would really struggle to last the whole season with this small a group of players.

This season is now 19 games in though and on top of everything else listed above , the quality of players, the tiny squad, the fact we would struggle anyway, we also have a manager who is contributing to our own downfall.

I have consistently said all along that we would struggle whoever was at the helm.

What I wasn't expecting though was just 2 wins in 19 games. Sorry but that is just unacceptable. We carry on like this and we are going to have the worst points tally in the history of the second division of football.

ICHAN · Nov 29, 2011

Thank you for the honesty NLHWC and for not taking any offence in my question as to why you bought a season ticket.
Also good for you on why you are defending AT.
But why should we as fans keep supporting him because of a little spell last year, which was going to happen due to our tactics changing from direct football to a passing game (caught teams out) but this is no longer effective and we have been caught out just as bothroyds tactics got found out by other teams, we have no other way of playing and it has become stagnent and very predictable.
We need a fresh approach and differant tactics, a manager who can change a game during a game and differant tactics for differant opposition which I am afraid to say AT can not do.
I honestly believe these players can play a damn sight better than what they are but are getting away with putting in a lacklustre apperance week in week out because they know the fans are pre-occupied with sisu and are blaming sisu for everything and so the attention has been shifted away from them.
Thorn cannot (not that I know on a personal level) seem to be able to get these players playing and fighting for the club or the fans who lets be honest pay there high paid damn wages.
Any other manager by now would have had fans baying for him to be sacked by now, but for some reason AT has not had this attention aimed at him because of the sisu conflict and fans feeling sorry for him because of squad depth, a honeymoon period, no money etc.
Well sorry but that does not cut it with me I do not want us relegated, I do not beleive that a change of manager will not turn things around (there is still time) and sorry but accepting relegation is crazy, when things could be changed by getting a new MANAGER in (capitals because thorn is not a manager) who would also have a honeymoon period and kick some of these players up there backsides and put some fear into them.

Otis · Nov 29, 2011

ICHAN said:
Thank you for the honesty NLHWC and for not taking any offence in my question as to why you bought a season ticket.
Also good for you on why you are defending AT.
But why should we as fans keep supporting him because of a little spell last year, which was going to happen due to our tactics changing from direct football to a passing game (caught teams out) but this is no longer effective and we have been caught out just as bothroyds tactics got found out by other teams, we have no other way of playing and it has become stagnent and very predictable.
We need a fresh approach and differant tactics, a manager who can change a game during a game and differant tactics for differant opposition which I am afraid to say AT can not do.
I honestly believe these players can play a damn sight better than what they are but are getting away with putting in a lacklustre apperance week in week out because they know the fans are pre-occupied with sisu and are blaming sisu for everything and so the attention has been shifted away from them.
Thorn cannot (not that I know on a personal level) seem to be able to get these players playing and fighting for the club or the fans who lets be honest pay there high paid damn wages.
Any other manager by now would have had fans baying for him to be sacked by now, but for some reason AT has not had this attention aimed at him because of the sisu conflict and fans feeling sorry for him because of squad depth, a honeymoon period, no money etc.
Well sorry but that does not cut it with me I do not want us relegated, I do not beleive that a change of manager will not turn things around (there is still time) and sorry but accepting relegation is crazy, when things could be changed by getting a new MANAGER in (capitals because thorn is not a manager) who would also have a honeymoon period and kick some of these players up there backsides and put some fear into them.

A most excellent post. Thorn did very well last year. That is now very much looking like it was a honeymoon period and we caught teams unaware. Teams are now very much aware of the way we play and they now have us sussed out. It's clearly not working. Our only hope now is that Gardner can be some kind of wonderkid for us and change our fortunes.

classicfooty · Nov 29, 2011

Alex Ferguson couldnt get this shower of shite motivated

Grendel · Nov 29, 2011

classicfooty said:
Alex Ferguson couldnt get this shower of shite motivated

What a stupid remark. Pointless remarks like this are hardly helpful are they? So if he wanted the job you would say no? Ha Ha

Grendel · Nov 29, 2011

Otis said:
A most excellent post. Thorn did very well last year. That is now very much looking like it was a honeymoon period and we caught teams unaware. Teams are now very much aware of the way we play and they now have us sussed out. It's clearly not working. Our only hope now is that Gardner can be some kind of wonderkid for us and change our fortunes.

And the honeymoon period was clearly more down to the players not liking Boothroyd than anything Thorn did - it was Adams / Dowie all over again. Thorn's footballing ethos was always publicly made to get fans on his side. If Boothroyd was a diamond guy Thorn would have gone direct. It is fairly obvious really.

brinner · Nov 29, 2011

Knowledge said:
I keep reading these boards and seeing fans who support Andy Thorn saying how bad our squad is and that no other manager could do better etc, time and time again.

In my opinion, thats right, my opinion and not fact, the following teams have squads no better, or only marginally better than ours:

Doncaster
Bristol City
Millwall
Watford
Portsmouth
Burnley
Derby
Barnsley
P'Boro
Palace

They have all won AT LEAST double the amount of games we have (except Doncaster), with some winning 4x the amount of games.

It is clear to me that our ''MANAGER'' has lost the squad, they do not play for him, they do not play for the jersey, I agree - they are in a comfort zone of knowing there is little competition for places, but that is where the manager should show value and inspire and motivate the team. A good manager should be able to inspire players to play with their hearts - this in fact is where new managers with little experience do well, whilst learning other aspects of the game. Look at Gardner on Sat, the passion and drive to get in to the box and score that header is something I haven't seen from a midfielder for years and NEVER under Andy Thorn - this is what the tip of the diamond player should do every game.

We clear have the ability as shown in 50% of games this season, they just DO NOT have the heart for the battle, hence our luck seems against us and we seem soulless.

It is clear for all to see, although investment has been almost zero, our squad is equal to nearly half this league and far better than many teams who have easily stayed up in the past.

as i just said on another thread:

thing is tho boothroyd has all but 3 of these players plus king, gunnar, turner and westy and we were playing far worse stuff and were in freefall under him once the players lost belief in his methods, same can be said of coleman who had an arguarbly better squad than boothroyd and thorn.

thorn proved with aidys players at the end of the season he could get them playing a nice brand of footy that would get its fair share of results, unfortunately he has had the rug pulled from under him but at least the players are still playing for him and doing their best.

i wish people would wake up and smell the coffee, our squad is simply not good enough to survive in this division, its as simple as that.

Thorn has signed 1 outfield player until thursdays loan signing, 1 FFS! 10 players left the club in the summer including our 4 best players which were the spine of our team and they have either not been replaced or have been replaced with inferior players.

WESTWOOD
TURNER
GUNNARSSON
KING

replaced with

MURPHY
CHRISTIE
BIGIRIMANA
MCDONALD

so we replaced Westy with Murphy, ok we were never goona get 1 as good as westy for nowt were we.
we havent replaced Turner so we play Keogh CB with a kid at RB that couldnt even get in to nuneatons team in january.
we havent replaced Gunnar so were having to play kids there.
we replaced King who i think is the best striker in this division with a lad with no championship experience and who struggled in lge 1 with norwich not so long ago as we couldnt afford anyone better.

i know which spine id rather have currently in our team.

Otis · Nov 29, 2011

Understand all of that Brinner as I am sure we all do.

But on top of everything, on top of all that we have a manager making mistakes too.

Cov City Daytrader 87 · Nov 29, 2011

Otis said:
Our only hope now is that Gardner can be some kind of wonderkid for us and change our fortunes.

Even a wonderkid can do so much. It down to the other players to play their part (scoring and stopping the other team from scoring).

Grendel · Nov 29, 2011

brinner said:
as i just said on another thread:

thing is tho boothroyd has all but 3 of these players plus king, gunnar, turner and westy and we were playing far worse stuff and were in freefall under him once the players lost belief in his methods, same can be said of coleman who had an arguarbly better squad than boothroyd and thorn.

thorn proved with aidys players at the end of the season he could get them playing a nice brand of footy that would get its fair share of results, unfortunately he has had the rug pulled from under him but at least the players are still playing for him and doing their best.

i wish people would wake up and smell the coffee, our squad is simply not good enough to survive in this division, its as simple as that.

Thorn has signed 1 outfield player until thursdays loan signing, 1 FFS! 10 players left the club in the summer including our 4 best players which were the spine of our team and they have either not been replaced or have been replaced with inferior players.

WESTWOOD
TURNER
GUNNARSSON
KING

replaced with

MURPHY
CHRISTIE
BIGIRIMANA
MCDONALD

so we replaced Westy with Murphy, ok we were never goona get 1 as good as westy for nowt were we.
we havent replaced Turner so we play Keogh CB with a kid at RB that couldnt even get in to nuneatons team in january.
we havent replaced Gunnar so were having to play kids there.
we replaced King who i think is the best striker in this division with a lad with no championship experience and who struggled in lge 1 with norwich not so long ago as we couldnt afford anyone better.

i know which spine id rather have currently in our team.

Oh it's deja vu all over again...

brinner · Nov 29, 2011

Otis said:
Understand all of that Brinner as I am sure we all do.

But on top of everything, on top of all that we have a manager making mistakes too.

i know Otis but if we still had a decent squad then maybe those mistakes would be far less fequent and when they did come then less costly.

Look at the late Gary Speed, who would have thought he could have done what he was doing for Wales after a rocky start litterd with mistakes at Sheff Utd last season.

As long as Thorn has learned from his ready for the start of next season i will be happy enough.

sky blue john · Nov 29, 2011

Otis said:
Understand all of that Brinner as I am sure we all do.

But on top of everything, on top of all that we have a manager making mistakes too.

So its all Thorns fault that players make bad passes miss open goals.
Or if your refering to subs we don't know what state in terms of fitness the players on the subs bench are in. For all we know there has probably been games that he has felt none of the subs on the bench have really been in a position to play because they have been carrying injuries.

Grendel · Nov 29, 2011

brinner said:
i know Otis but if we still had a decent squad then maybe those mistakes would be far less fequent and when they did come then less costly.

Look at the late Gary Speed, who would have thought he could have done what he was doing for Wales after a rocky start litterd with mistakes at Sheff Utd last season.

As long as Thorn has learned from his ready for the start of next season i will be happy enough.

Well if Thorn is here next season they so are SISU - very naive to assume otherwise. If he is I won't be and neither will a lot of people who sit near me. Fortunately I predict Boxing Day is the day he gets the present he deserves.

brinner · Nov 29, 2011

kduffy said:
Well if Thorn is here next season they so are SISU - very naive to assume otherwise. If he is I won't be and neither will a lot of people who sit near me. Fortunately I predict Boxing Day is the day he gets the present he deserves.

yep, hopefully 3 massive points!!!

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