Our squad (& fans who harp on about no other manager being able to do better...) (3 Viewers)

Knowledge · Nov 28, 2011

I keep reading these boards and seeing fans who support Andy Thorn saying how bad our squad is and that no other manager could do better etc, time and time again.

In my opinion, thats right, my opinion and not fact, the following teams have squads no better, or only marginally better than ours:

Doncaster
Bristol City
Millwall
Watford
Portsmouth
Burnley
Derby
Barnsley
P'Boro
Palace

They have all won AT LEAST double the amount of games we have (except Doncaster), with some winning 4x the amount of games.

It is clear to me that our ''MANAGER'' has lost the squad, they do not play for him, they do not play for the jersey, I agree - they are in a comfort zone of knowing there is little competition for places, but that is where the manager should show value and inspire and motivate the team. A good manager should be able to inspire players to play with their hearts - this in fact is where new managers with little experience do well, whilst learning other aspects of the game. Look at Gardner on Sat, the passion and drive to get in to the box and score that header is something I haven't seen from a midfielder for years and NEVER under Andy Thorn - this is what the tip of the diamond player should do every game.

We clear have the ability as shown in 50% of games this season, they just DO NOT have the heart for the battle, hence our luck seems against us and we seem soulless.

It is clear for all to see, although investment has been almost zero, our squad is equal to nearly half this league and far better than many teams who have easily stayed up in the past.

CUS Wyken · Nov 28, 2011

Great post, too many on here have thorns sympathy vote nice man bollox. He's not a good enough manager and should stick to scouting which he's good at

Kuklinski · Nov 28, 2011

It could be argued that the players already have an excuse for under performing, and only those with their professional pride are putting it in. Keogh, Cranie, Wood are the examples I'd give of those playing without the need for the off field happenings to be used as an excuse.

procdoc · Nov 28, 2011

Kuklinski said:
It could be argued that the players already have an excuse for under performing, and only those with their professional pride are putting it in. Keogh, Cranie, Wood are the examples I'd give of those playing without the need for the off field happenings to be used as an excuse.

I agree, the likes of Sheff, Bell and Baker have been a disgrace yet they all got new deals!

stupot07 · Nov 28, 2011

Sorry knowledge but I completely disagree that our squad is at least equal to half the teams in the league.

We are the only team in the league that having to play 3 teenagers in their first season in the first team week in week out. They are doing great but the fact it our squad is too small and lacking in quality that they have to play.

Knowledge · Nov 28, 2011

stupot07 said:
Sorry knowledge but I completely disagree that our squad is at least equal to half the teams in the league.

We are the only team in the league that having to play 3 teenagers in their first season in the first team week in week out. They are doing great but the fact it our squad is too small and lacking in quality that they have to play.

stupot - are you a Thorn apologist??

Can you seriously argue that with a better manager we wouldn't be in netter shape?

Why are we playing said teenagers? Is it due to the fact that senior players are not performing? Do these senior players have ability? Yes. Do they have heart for the fight?......

Just a few examples off the top of my head, of youngsters in their first full break-through seasons?

Derby: Conor Doyle, Jeff Hendrick, Max O'brien
P'Boro: Daniel Kearns, Ryan Tunnicliffe, Josh Thompson, Ryan Bennett
Watford: Lee hodson, Marvin Sordell, Ross Jenkins
Ipswich: Reece Wabara, Aaron Creswell, Josh Carson
Blackpool: Thomas Ince, Callum McManaman
Southampton: Ben Reeves, James Ward-Prowse, Aaron Martin,
Brighton: Lewis Dunk, Marcos Painter
Bristol City: James Wilson
Hull: Tom Cairney, Robbie Brady, Cameron Stewart, Corry Evans, Joe Dudgeon,
Palace: Nathaniel Clyne, Wilfred Zaha,
Millwall: Nathan Baker, Scott Barron, John Marquis

sw88 · Nov 28, 2011

Most of our players are league 1 standard. Thats why we are where we are in the league.

This is on top of Thorn naivity when it comes to football management.

ICHAN · Nov 28, 2011

Thing is sw88 most are experianced professionals but they are not holding there hands up and taking any resposibility.
Most cannot be bothered anymore and there is no fight in them and wanting to fight for the clubs fans there passion has gone.
The other thing is some have been given contract extentions why I do not know as they certainly have not earned it, so they know they have ex amount of years pay at a certain level for ex amount of years and these players should be giving there all as a thank you for being given said contract.

LeamingtonBootBoy · Nov 28, 2011

Spot on, Ichan.

In fact, since Bell and McPake got their contracts, they have been injured (and I'm sure busting a gut to get back into the squad/team....:facepalm...and Gary 'Mr Coventry' McSheffrey has been substituted in both games he has started since he signed his 'well earned' deal.

Nice to see that 'Better than Henry' has taken Gary Gardner under his wing...god help him.

PVA · Nov 28, 2011

I'm not saying we wouldn't be better off with another manager, but there is no way that our squad is as good as half of those teams in the OP.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Nov 28, 2011

I wouldn't say we have a better squad than any of them
Similar
Milwall
Barnsley
Watford
Palace
Posh

Marginally better than us
Derby
Doncaster
Bristol

All other squads are much better than ours imo.

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 28, 2011

Nope, disagree with the OP, I think they are all confortably better than ours, particularly in terms of experience. There may be a few kids getting games, but they are surrounded by experience-and quality-and not expected to play all the time because there's no one else like our kids. The relative wage bills would illustrate the disparity perfectly. If Barnsley are "blowing us out of the water" for wages, what does that tell you?

Grendel · Nov 28, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
Nope, disagree with the OP, I think they are all confortably better than ours, particularly in terms of experience. There may be a few kids getting games, but they are surrounded by experience-and quality-and not expected to play all the time because there's no one else like our kids. The relative wage bills would illustrate the disparity perfectly. If Barnsley are "blowing us out of the water" for wages, what does that tell you?

I agree a lot of the teams mentioned have better squads - Derby signed 9 players. Some I doubt - Millwall, Doncaster, Watford, Barnsley. They are not great and we should be able to compete on an equal(ish) basis.
One difference of course with all these teams is they have a better manager - would any of then swap managers do you think -- no.

Jack Griffin · Nov 28, 2011

Just checked Milwall squad on soccerbase, could only find a few players with less than 80 professional appearances in those that had played any games for them this season, they have a lot of players with around 200 appearances, we have a lot with 10 or less! They also have used more players, implying their squad depth is better.

So I think a lot of people who claim other squads are no better to or comperable to ours need to actually check their facts first.. :slap:

PLAYER LEAGUE FA CUP LEAGUE CUP OTHER
APPS / GLS APPS / GLS APPS / GLS APPS / GLS
(D) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Nadjim Abdou (M) 13 (3) 0 0 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Patrick Agyemang (F) 1 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Tobi Alabi (F) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Ryan Allsopp (G) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Nathan Baker (D) 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Scott Barron (D) 4 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (2) 0 0 (0) 0
Hameur Bouazza (M) 8 (2) 1 0 (0) 0 2 (1) 1 0 (0) 0
Tony Craig (D) 6 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Alan Dunne (D) 14 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 2 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Liam Feeney (M) 13 (0) 3 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
David Forde (G) 16 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Chris Hackett (M) 0 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 2 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Darius Henderson (F) 13 (0) 8 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
James Henry (M) 7 (9) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Brian Howard (M) 9 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Shane Lowry (M) 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
John Marquis (F) 5 (6) 1 0 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Josh McQuoid (F) 1 (3) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Steve Mildenhall (G) 2 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Tamika Mkandawire (D) 10 (3) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (1) 1 0 (0) 0
Dany N'Guessan (M) 3 (7) 0 0 (0) 0 2 (0) 1 0 (0) 0
Aiden O'Brien (F) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Darren Purse (D) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Therry Racon (M) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Paul Robinson (D) 18 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Jay Simpson (F) 10 (2) 4 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Jack Smith (D) 6 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 2 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Jordan Stewart (M) 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Liam Trotter (M) 17 (0) 3 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Darren Ward (D) 17 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 2 (0) 0 0 (0) 0

Carl Baker (M) 8 (2) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
David Bell (M) 11 (4) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Gael Bigirimana (M) 10 (3) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Nathan Cameron (D) 5 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Cyrus Christie (D) 16 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Sammy Clingan (M) 19 (0) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Martin Cranie (D) 13 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Gary Deegan (M) 5 (2) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Chris Dunn (G) 0 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Fredy Eastwood (F) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Gary Gardner (M) 1 (0) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Chris Hussey (D) 17 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Sean Jeffers (F) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Lucas Jutkiewicz (F) 19 (0) 7 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Richard Keogh (D) 19 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Cody McDonald (F) 7 (2) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
James McPake (D) 2 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Gary McSheffrey (F) 11 (1) 1 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Joe Murphy (G) 19 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Roy O'Donovan (F) 6 (5) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 1 0 (0) 0
Clive Platt (F) 5 (5) 2 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Josh Ruffles (M) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Conor Thomas (M) 12 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Jordan Willis (M) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Callum Wilson (F) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Richard Wood (D) 4 (4) 1 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0

sky blue john · Nov 28, 2011

kduffy said:
I agree a lot of the teams mentioned have better squads - Derby signed 9 players. Some I doubt - Millwall, Doncaster, Watford, Barnsley. They are not great and we should be able to compete on an equal(ish) basis.
One difference of course with all these teams is they have a better manager - would any of then swap managers do you think -- no.

The question is KD would any of the managers at the clubs mentioned be interested in the cov job if we sacked Thorn ?

Knowledge · Nov 28, 2011

Jack Griffin said:
Just checked Milwall squad on soccerbase, could only find 2 players with less than 100 professional appearances in those that had played 8 or more games for them this season, they have a lot of players with around 200 appearances, we have a lot with 10 or less! They also have a lot more players.

So I think a lot of people who claim other squads are no better to or comperable to ours need to actually check their facts first.. :slap:

PLAYER LEAGUE FA CUP LEAGUE CUP OTHER
APPS / GLS APPS / GLS APPS / GLS APPS / GLS
(D) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Nadjim Abdou (M) 30 (4) 0 1 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Calvin Andrew (F) 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Scott Barron (D) 35 (3) 2 1 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Jens Berthel Askou (D) 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Hameur Bouazza (M) 3 (9) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Darren Carter (M) 5 (5) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Tony Craig (D) 21 (3) 0 1 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Alan Dunne (D) 38 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 2 (1) 1 0 (0) 0
Craig Eastmond (M) 4 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
David Forde (G) 46 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Andy Frampton (D) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Jake Gallagher (M) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Lewis Grabban (F) 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Ashley Grimes (M) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Chris Hackett (M) 7 (9) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Neil Harris (F) 7 (19) 2 1 (0) 0 2 (1) 1 0 (0) 0
James Henry (M) 39 (3) 5 1 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Kiernon Hughes-Mason (F) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Marc Laird (M) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Kevin Lisbie (F) 10 (10) 4 0 (1) 0 1 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
John Marquis (F) 5 (6) 4 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Josh McQuoid (F) 7 (4) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Steve Mildenhall (G) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Tamika Mkandawire (D) 34 (1) 1 1 (0) 0 2 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Steve Morison (F) 40 (0) 15 1 (0) 0 2 (0) 2 0 (0) 0
Jason Puncheon (M) 7 (0) 5 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Darren Purse (D) 9 (4) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Paul Robinson (D) 34 (2) 3 1 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Theo Robinson (F) 8 (3) 3 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Martin Rowlands (M) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Danny Schofield (M) 20 (11) 2 0 (1) 1 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Dan Shittu (D) 9 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Jack Smith (D) 9 (0) 1 1 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Andros Townsend (M) 11 (0) 2 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Liam Trotter (M) 34 (1) 7 0 (0) 0 2 (0) 1 0 (0) 0
Darren Ward (D) 28 (3) 1 0 (1) 0 2 (1) 0 0 (0) 0

Carl Baker (M) 8 (2) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
David Bell (M) 11 (4) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Gael Bigirimana (M) 10 (3) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Nathan Cameron (D) 5 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Cyrus Christie (D) 16 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Sammy Clingan (M) 19 (0) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Martin Cranie (D) 13 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Gary Deegan (M) 5 (2) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Chris Dunn (G) 0 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Fredy Eastwood (F) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Gary Gardner (M) 1 (0) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Chris Hussey (D) 17 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Sean Jeffers (F) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Lucas Jutkiewicz (F) 19 (0) 7 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Richard Keogh (D) 19 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Cody McDonald (F) 7 (2) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
James McPake (D) 2 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Gary McSheffrey (F) 11 (1) 1 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Joe Murphy (G) 19 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Roy O'Donovan (F) 6 (5) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 1 0 (0) 0
Clive Platt (F) 5 (5) 2 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Josh Ruffles (M) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Conor Thomas (M) 12 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Jordan Willis (M) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Callum Wilson (F) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Richard Wood (D) 4 (4) 1 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0

And next can you submit the list of players who currently play for Milwall as most of those no longer play for them.

Grendel · Nov 28, 2011

sky blue john said:
The question is KD would any of the managers at the clubs mentioned be interested in the cov job if we sacked Thorn ?

Sadly that is not the question. I will answer it though if you answer mine first.

sky blue john · Nov 28, 2011

kduffy said:
Sadly that is not the question. I will answer it though if you answer mine first.

I agree they probably wouldn't !!!!!!!!

Grendel · Nov 28, 2011

Jack Griffin said:
Just checked Milwall squad on soccerbase, could only find 2 players with less than 100 professional appearances in those that had played 8 or more games for them this season, they have a lot of players with around 200 appearances, we have a lot with 10 or less! They also have a lot more players.

So I think a lot of people who claim other squads are no better to or comperable to ours need to actually check their facts first.. :slap:

PLAYER LEAGUE FA CUP LEAGUE CUP OTHER
APPS / GLS APPS / GLS APPS / GLS APPS / GLS
(D) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Nadjim Abdou (M) 30 (4) 0 1 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Calvin Andrew (F) 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Scott Barron (D) 35 (3) 2 1 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Jens Berthel Askou (D) 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Hameur Bouazza (M) 3 (9) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Darren Carter (M) 5 (5) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Tony Craig (D) 21 (3) 0 1 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Alan Dunne (D) 38 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 2 (1) 1 0 (0) 0
Craig Eastmond (M) 4 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
David Forde (G) 46 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Andy Frampton (D) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Jake Gallagher (M) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Lewis Grabban (F) 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Ashley Grimes (M) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Chris Hackett (M) 7 (9) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Neil Harris (F) 7 (19) 2 1 (0) 0 2 (1) 1 0 (0) 0
James Henry (M) 39 (3) 5 1 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Kiernon Hughes-Mason (F) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Marc Laird (M) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Kevin Lisbie (F) 10 (10) 4 0 (1) 0 1 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
John Marquis (F) 5 (6) 4 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Josh McQuoid (F) 7 (4) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Steve Mildenhall (G) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Tamika Mkandawire (D) 34 (1) 1 1 (0) 0 2 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Steve Morison (F) 40 (0) 15 1 (0) 0 2 (0) 2 0 (0) 0
Jason Puncheon (M) 7 (0) 5 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Darren Purse (D) 9 (4) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Paul Robinson (D) 34 (2) 3 1 (0) 0 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Theo Robinson (F) 8 (3) 3 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Martin Rowlands (M) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Danny Schofield (M) 20 (11) 2 0 (1) 1 3 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Dan Shittu (D) 9 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Jack Smith (D) 9 (0) 1 1 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Andros Townsend (M) 11 (0) 2 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Liam Trotter (M) 34 (1) 7 0 (0) 0 2 (0) 1 0 (0) 0
Darren Ward (D) 28 (3) 1 0 (1) 0 2 (1) 0 0 (0) 0

Carl Baker (M) 8 (2) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
David Bell (M) 11 (4) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Gael Bigirimana (M) 10 (3) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Nathan Cameron (D) 5 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Cyrus Christie (D) 16 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Sammy Clingan (M) 19 (0) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Martin Cranie (D) 13 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Gary Deegan (M) 5 (2) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Chris Dunn (G) 0 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Fredy Eastwood (F) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Gary Gardner (M) 1 (0) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Chris Hussey (D) 17 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Sean Jeffers (F) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Lucas Jutkiewicz (F) 19 (0) 7 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Richard Keogh (D) 19 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Cody McDonald (F) 7 (2) 1 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
James McPake (D) 2 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Gary McSheffrey (F) 11 (1) 1 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Joe Murphy (G) 19 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Roy O'Donovan (F) 6 (5) 0 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 1 0 (0) 0
Clive Platt (F) 5 (5) 2 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Josh Ruffles (M) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Conor Thomas (M) 12 (2) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0
Jordan Willis (M) 0 (1) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Callum Wilson (F) 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0 0 (0) 0
Richard Wood (D) 4 (4) 1 0 (0) 0 1 (0) 0 0 (0) 0

This is hilarious. I assume the caviate of more than 8 games this season is applied so you can exclude Wood, McPake, Eastwood etc. to try and prove a point. Doesn't Jordan CLark count anymore? What about Millwall players who no longer play for the club. Back to the drawing board AT.....

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 28, 2011

You are blaming AT for Jacks mistake now! :claping hands:

Grendel · Nov 28, 2011

Nonleagueherewecome said:
You are blaming AT for Jacks mistake now! :claping hands:

Fair cop! Can't argue with that

Grendel · Nov 28, 2011

sky blue john said:
I agree they probably wouldn't !!!!!!!!

And I agree they would not swap so I guess that has got us nowhere!!

sky blue john · Nov 28, 2011

kduffy said:
And I agree they would not swap so I guess that has got us nowhere!!

lol it was fun while it lasted.

Jack Griffin · Nov 28, 2011

I screwed up & originally took data from last years Milwall squad, I've corrected my mistakes in my post above (I hope).

The lists are all the players who have made appearances this year.
Millwall still have more players (though not as many more as I thought)

The point about professional apperance totals holds true,we have a squad with little experience, the large majority of the Millwall squad who played at all this season have over 100 starting appearances except a few, 2 of which have played over 80 games, 2 others 30-40 games and one only 10, the ones with relatively few career starts are the ones getting a few games, the experienced players tend to be the ones playing the most games (I assume they are probably injured if they are not).

Even ROD has only had 46 career starts, Cody 53, Cyrus/Gael/Conner have racked up between about 40 between them.

Grendel · Nov 28, 2011

Jack Griffin said:
I screwed up & originally took data from last years Milwall squad, I've corrected my mistake in my own post above.

The lists are all the players who have made appearances this year.
Millwall still have more players (though not as many more as I thought)

The point about professional apperance totals holds true,we have a squad with little experience, all of the Millwall squad who played at all this season have over 100 apprearances except a few, 2 of which have played over 80 games, 2 others 30-40 games and one only 10, the ones with relatively few career apprearances are the ones getting a few games, the experienced players get to play most games.

Isn't this all getting rather desparate. Have you heard the expression quality over quantity before? Anyway be honest how many Millwall players could you name before you hit Google?

Nonleagueherewecome · Nov 28, 2011

Jack Griffin said:
I screwed up & originally took data from last years Milwall squad, I've corrected my mistake in my own post above.

The lists are all the players who have made appearances this year.
Millwall still have more players (though not as many more as I thought)

The point about professional apperance totals holds true,we have a squad with little experience, the large majority of the Millwall squad who played at all this season have over 100 appearances except a few, 2 of which have played over 80 games, 2 others 30-40 games and one only 10, the ones with relatively few career apprearances are the ones getting a few games, the experienced players get to play most games.

It's the same with Palace and Watford: most of their youngsters are a few years older than ours and with plenty of experience. For us, 4 players are playing their first seasons as first choice in the Football League and had under 10 appearances before this season. 2 hadn't made their league debuts, and one had just played a couple of games. Yet they are playing almost every game. You will not find another club in the division in such a position. Bet there aren't many clubs with only a single LB on the books, either.

Covstu · Nov 28, 2011

I would love a more experienced manager but this comes down to two things: 1) we have no money to replace AT and 2) why would anyone come here knowing that they do not have a penny to spend including loanees!!!

sadly based on the above it aint gonna happen people!! AT will eventually be used as a scapegoat for the lack of funding and support by the board. I am not saying he is perfect because he isnt however like Ray Ranson they need another fallguy.,..

stupot07 · Nov 28, 2011

Fook me this took ages....

Here's some stats for you

Derby: Fair enough derby are regularly playing two of the 3 you mentioned, however Doyle and Hendrick are 2 school years older than Bigi and Thomas and O'Brian is 1 year older.
Conor Doyle (20 yo, this season apps 1 start 4 subs, total 6 starts 12 sub)
Jeff Hendrick (19 yo (20 in Jan),this season apps 15(3), total 15(7)
Max O'brien (19, this season app 16(2), Total 16(5))

P'Boro: Only had to play Tunnicliffe this season who is of similar age to our boys - Ryan Bennett has over 150 league starts experience.
Daniel Kearns, (20, this season 0(4), total 4(4)
Ryan Tunnicliffe, (18, this season 7(13) starts, total 7 (13)
Josh Thompson, (20, this season 0(0), total 36 (7)
Ryan Bennett (21, this season 20 starts, total 159 (18)

Watford: all are older than our kids and have made 60+ first team appearance.
Lee hodson (20, this season 5 starts, total 66 (6)
Marvin Sordell (20, this season 18(1) , total 49 (24)
Ross Jenkins (21, this season 4(3), total 66 (13)

Ipswich: Ipswich have only had to rely on Cresswell who is 22 next month and has made over 80 appearances
Reece Wabara (19 (20 in Dec), this season 1 (4), total 1(5)
Aaron Creswell (21 (22 in Dec), this season 17 starts, total 79 (7)
Josh Carson (18, this season 3 (4), total 11 (5)

Blackpool: Neither have been relied upto like our youngsters have
Thomas Ince, (19, this season 5(6), total 7(9)
Callum McManaman (20, this season 4(3), total 4 (7)

Southampton: Not relying on any - only 1 start and 1 sub in league for their youngsters - and he is 22 yo.
Ben Reeves, (20, this season 2 starts both in cup, total 2(0)
James Ward-Prowse, (17, this season 1 start in cup, total 1(0)
Aaron Martin, (22, this season 5 (1) inc 4 starts in cup, total 7 (5)

Brighton: agreed Dunk is in his first proper season but he is 2 years older than Bigi and Thomas
Lewis Dunk (20, this season 17 starts, total 22 (4)
Marcos Painter (25, this season 18 starts, total 173 (8)

Bristol City:
James Wilson (22, this season 20 (3), total 43 (5)

Hull: fair enough Hull have some youngsters who are inexperienced but with the exception of Brady they are 2-3 years older than our kids.
Tom Cairney (20, this season 10(3), total 40 (10)
Robbie Brady(19, this season 15(2), total 159 (18)
Cameron Stewart (20, this season 2(0), total 19 (4)
Corry Evans (21, this season 12(2) , total 30(3)
Joe Dudgeon (21, this season 15(1), total 16 (2)

Palace: both players have considerably more experience than our kids.
Nathaniel Clyne, (20, this season 2 starts, total 113 (4)
Wilfred Zaha, (19, this season 16(7) , total 43(24)

Millwall: Have only really relied on Marquis but he hasn't made as many starts as any of our kids
Nathan Baker (20, this season 1 start, total 23 (1)
Scott Barron (26, this season 5(3) starts, total 99 (33)
John Marquis (19, this season 8 (6), total 13 (14)

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Nov 28, 2011

I think we have to consider people saying inexperienced " not other club playing so many youngsters"

We don't have to play the youngsters, people have been calling for Keogh to be moved to RB and Wood who has more experience play CB but Thorn doesn't do it as Cyrus's "stats are still high". How many times have one of Deegan, Bell, Baker, Mcsheffrey been left on the bench this season? Quite a few between all of them I would guess. Most city fans think Bell is awful but as people are judging opp. squads on the amount of experience they have I thought I would do the same.

If we are attributing our league position to inexperience why does Thorn continue to play them when he has the means to change. Besides Christie is the only one playing week in week out as Thomas and Gael have been rotated.

Otis · Nov 28, 2011

Passing football in pretty little triangles, squad not good enough, no-one could do any better etc. No money, lots of moaning about the lack of quality at the club and the players being inadequate. Not enough goals or goal chances being created.

We lose the manager even though no-one could do any better and bring someone else in and suddenly we start playing really well and score 4, 5 and even 6 goals and win games.

Couldn't happen?

Did!!! Gary Mac / Eric Black.

Please, please, please, can we put to bed this notion that no-one could do any better!!! I recall vividly how 'very poor' our players were at the time and yet Black came with with pretty much the exact same squad and players and turned us into a fast attacking team scoring goals and winning matches. Didn't want to have to play the Eric Black card, but it is pure nonsense to suggest that no other manager could do any better with this squad.

Think back and think back to all the no-hopers we had back then. Daft to say Thorn is doing as good as anyone else could. We have some very short memories some of us.

sky blue john · Nov 28, 2011

Otis said:
Passing football in pretty little triangles, squad not good enough, no-one could do any better etc. No money, lots of moaning about the lack of quality at the club and the players being inadequate. Not enough goals or goal chances being created.

We lose the manager even though no-one could do any better and bring someone else in and suddenly we start playing really well and score 4, 5 and even 6 goals and win games.

Couldn't happen?

Did!!! Gary Mac / Eric Black.

Please, please, please, can we put to bed this notion that no-one could do any better!!! I recall vividly how 'very poor' our players were at the time and yet Black came with with pretty much the exact same squad and players and turned us into a fast attacking team scoring goals and winning matches. Didn't want to have to play the Eric Black card, but it is pure nonsense to suggest that no other manager could do any better with this squad.

Think back and think back to all the no-hopers we had back then. Daft to say Thorn is doing as good as anyone else could. We have some very short memories some of us.

Talking of memorys did AT not do an Eric Black at the end of last season ?
ARE YES THEN MORE THAN HALF HIS FIRST ELEVEN WERE ALLOWED TO LEAVE IN THE SUMMER AND NOT A SINGLE OUTFIELD PLAYER BROUGHT IN TO REPLACE THEM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BANANA · Nov 28, 2011

Knowledge said:
I keep reading these boards and seeing fans who support Andy Thorn saying how bad our squad is and that no other manager could do better etc, time and time again.

In my opinion, thats right, my opinion and not fact, the following teams have squads no better, or only marginally better than ours:

Doncaster
Bristol City
Millwall
Watford
Portsmouth
Burnley
Derby
Barnsley
P'Boro
Palace

They have all won AT LEAST double the amount of games we have (except Doncaster), with some winning 4x the amount of games.

It is clear to me that our ''MANAGER'' has lost the squad, they do not play for him, they do not play for the jersey, I agree - they are in a comfort zone of knowing there is little competition for places, but that is where the manager should show value and inspire and motivate the team. A good manager should be able to inspire players to play with their hearts - this in fact is where new managers with little experience do well, whilst learning other aspects of the game. Look at Gardner on Sat, the passion and drive to get in to the box and score that header is something I haven't seen from a midfielder for years and NEVER under Andy Thorn - this is what the tip of the diamond player should do every game.

We clear have the ability as shown in 50% of games this season, they just DO NOT have the heart for the battle, hence our luck seems against us and we seem soulless.

It is clear for all to see, although investment has been almost zero, our squad is equal to nearly half this league and far better than many teams who have easily stayed up in the past.

He has a point. I dont say Thorn is the best man for the job but TBH we have to keep faith in him because Sisu wont sack him aqs it will cost them!

Otis · Nov 28, 2011

sky blue john said:
Talking of memorys did AT not do an Eric Black at the end of last season ?
ARE YES THEN MORE THAN HALF HIS FIRST ELEVEN WERE ALLOWED TO LEAVE IN THE SUMMER AND NOT A SINGLE OUTFIELD PLAYER BROUGHT IN TO REPLACE THEM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, but don't get your point at all. I am talking about if Thorn went now and someone else came in. What the hell has that got to do with how many players left in the Summer? Nothing is the answer, The whole point was that it is simply wrong to assume that no other manager could do any better than Thorn with this squad. If Thorn was sacked now and someone took the reigns. What happened in the Summer in that scenario is simply not relevant.

johnniericoh · Nov 28, 2011

I still think AT's negative backwards/sidewards tactics have a lot to do with our demise.

Plus; very few shots - centre midfielders with NIL goals - strikers wandering up and down the flanks instead of being available in the box.

All reek of negativity and lack of purpose.

Change it AT or it will change you

PUSB

Grendel · Nov 28, 2011

Otis said:
Sorry, but don't get your point at all. I am talking about if Thorn went now and someone else came in. What the hell has that got to do with how many players left in the Summer? Nothing is the answer, The whole point was that it is simply wrong to assume that no other manager could do any better than Thorn with this squad. If Thorn was sacked now and someone took the reigns. What happened in the Summer in that scenario is simply not relevant.

You are 100% spot on. The notion no-one could make a difference is utterly stupid.

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