Our defence (2 Viewers)

Otis · Sep 12, 2017

I know there has been a fair bit of moaning about the Sky Blues on here lately, but you have to say our defensive record so far this season is really outstanding.

5 clean sheets out of 7 league games. Only 3 goals let in, in 7 league games and two of those being absolute horrendous errors by our keeper.

We carry on as solid and tight as this it will be our defence that will get us promotion.

After so many shaky years of gifting goals and our back 4 capitulating like a pack of cards, you have say this is a breath of fresh air.

hill83 · Sep 12, 2017

Settle down Otis. It's only 7 games.

Otis · Sep 12, 2017

hill83 said:
Settle down Otis. It's only 7 games.

Hence why I said 'so far.'

JulianDarbyFTW · Sep 12, 2017

I'm with Otis. Enjoy it while the goings good, and dream big*.

*until the inevitable capitualtion after Christmas, of course.

hill83 · Sep 12, 2017

Otis said:
Hence why I said 'so far.'

Yeah but I know what you are like, and I bet that 'so far' was an afterthought.

skybluepm2 · Sep 12, 2017

Superb. No nonsense approach at this level really does pay off. Even without McDonald we have Hyam and Davies available to step in who are proving to be more than able replacements. Not convinced about the full back cover if either Grimmer or Stokes become injured or are suspended, let's hope we have a bit of luck in this department as we certainly aren't getting it further up the pitch at the moment!

I'll even throw in a well done for Burge......There, I've said it!

fatso · Sep 12, 2017

Burge is looking better, playing behind a back 4 he trusts. They are starting to play like a unit.

Sky Blue Pete · Sep 12, 2017

I thought we gave away 2-3 great opportunities tonight but you can't argue with the stats

chiefdave · Sep 12, 2017

I'm not a fan of the two defensive mids, leads to dull games. But it seems to be working and it looks like that is Robin's plan for the season. Keep it tight at the back and grind out wins.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Sep 12, 2017

Grimmer has been outstanding.

PVA · Sep 12, 2017

We very rarely look troubled by teams at this level.

Wouldn't mind Haynes getting a go at left back once fit, offers more going forwards than Stokes and should be goof enough defensively at this level.

fernandopartridge · Sep 12, 2017

PVA said:
We very rarely look troubled by teams at this level.

Wouldn't mind Haynes getting a go at left back once fit, offers more going forwards than Stokes and should be goof enough defensively at this level.

He was't bad towards the end of last season but it isn't broke so no need to bring him in. There is also a lot to be said for trying to keep a consistent back 4.

Mucca Mad Boys · Sep 12, 2017

chiefdave said:
I'm not a fan of the two defensive mids, leads to dull games. But it seems to be working and it looks like that is Robin's plan for the season. Keep it tight at the back and grind out wins.

We play 4-2-3-1 so the formation kind of lends itself to that midfield shape. 4-4-2 you're looking more balance because the 2 strikers can get isolated without a more attacking midfielder in there.

Options for me now Andreu is injured:

1) Keep the same shape, but with Nazon behind the striker. I think this is what's MR will do.
2) Push Stevenson behind the striker, allow him the freedom to create chances etc.
3) McNulty behind Beavon.
4) Play 4-4-2, with Biamou and McNulty upfront.

Cranfield Sky Blue · Sep 12, 2017

I thought Grimmer was top class tonight. Stokes still baffles me. Before Blackpool away and that injury he was awesome.. Now, I'm not so sure. Hopefully he just needs games. Willis walks this league and Davies seems an able replacement for McDonald. It will be interesting to see who plays on Saturday!

The midfield defensive work also helps.

PUSB

pastythegreat · Sep 12, 2017

chiefdave said:
I'm not a fan of the two defensive mids, leads to dull games. But it seems to be working and it looks like that is Robin's plan for the season. Keep it tight at the back and grind out wins.

I don't know why people are so hung up on 2 defensive midfielders so much. People slagging it off about boring, non attacking football. Anybody ever thought that it might me the league were in that's boring, talentless, dross as suppose to the formation?
I didn't see anybody say the formation was dull and boring once when Mogga was using it to beat Milwall 4-0 And Crewe 5-0 And Bury 6-0.

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pastythegreat · Sep 13, 2017

skybluepm2 said:
Superb. No nonsense approach at this level really does pay off. Even without McDonald we have Hyam and Davies available to step in who are proving to be more than able replacements. Not convinced about the full back cover if either Grimmer or Stokes become injured or are suspended, let's hope we have a bit of luck in this department as we certainly aren't getting it further up the pitch at the moment!

I'll even throw in a well done for Burge......There, I've said it!

In terms of full back cover as good as Grimmer has been, DKE is more than capable of stepping in at this level. And once fit, I think Haynes offers more going forward than Stokes. And again, at this level should be more than adequte. Besides, for me, stokes hasn't been at his best so far this season. For whatever reason. Think he could do with a rest/a bit of competition to keep him on his toes!

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larry_david · Sep 13, 2017

Few games Haynes played last season in the efl against league 2 sides he ripped them up going forward. Can't wait till he's back because he is an unknown quality in this team.

Gosford Green · Sep 13, 2017

Defence looks good. Not convinced on the goal scoring side but if the opposition are having problems scoring we might only need to find 1or 2 scrappy goals each game. Peace of piss this league.

Otis · Sep 13, 2017

PVA said:
We very rarely look troubled by teams at this level.

And what a refreshing thing that is. For the most part, for years we have been dominated by the opposition and been on the back foot.

This season we have definitely been the dominant team in games. I thought Carlisle were pretty decent first half, but in that second 45 mins we barely gave them a sniff until the last 10 mins.

I too have been impressed with Grimmer and obviously Willis is good enough for this level. The stand out star for me has been Rod McDonald, but seemingly now we have really decent cover across the centre backs and still look good if it's Willis and Davies, Willis and Hyam or any other combination and if we can get Stokes playing as well as he was a year or so ago we are going to look ever better still.

The one worry has been the keeping position, but that's now two games in a row I have been impressed with Lee Burge. Long may it continue.

Astute · Sep 13, 2017

What a difference a week makes. It was all doom and gloom this time last week. We were never going to do any good playing the defensive midfield players. People were questioning the way Robins was setting us up although we have hardly had any shots on target against us. And those of us that were still confident were wrong as usual.

I still don't see any reason why we can't finish in the top 3. We won't come across many star players because there isn't many. We are still going to lose games along the way. But we are only 1 point off averaging 2 points a game and have let in less than half a goal a game. Keep it up and we will be in the top 3 at the end of the season.

Adge · Sep 13, 2017

fernandopartridge said:
He was't bad towards the end of last season but it isn't broke so no need to bring him in. There is also a lot to be said for trying to keep a consistent back 4.

Yes, was going to say that myself bar injury-if it's not broken don't fix it while it remains settled.

Hobo · Sep 13, 2017

Astute said:
What a difference a week makes. It was all doom and gloom this time last week. We were never going to do any good playing the defensive midfield players. People were questioning the way Robins was setting us up although we have hardly had any shots on target against us. And those of us that were still confident were wrong as usual.

I still don't see any reason why we can't finish in the top 3. We won't come across many star players because there isn't many. We are still going to lose games along the way. But we are only 1 point off averaging 2 points a game and have let in less than half a goal a game. Keep it up and we will be in the top 3 at the end of the season.

That is because fans know best, when they really know fuck all.

ajsccfc · Sep 13, 2017

Going on goals conceded as a cold stat, our defence is twice as good as the next best in the league. Normally I'm pleasantly surprised if we're in positive goal difference.

Esoterica · Sep 13, 2017

pastythegreat said:
I don't know why people are so hung up on 2 defensive midfielders so much. People slagging it off about boring, non attacking football. Anybody ever thought that it might me the league were in that's boring, talentless, dross as suppose to the formation?
I didn't see anybody say the formation was dull and boring once when Mogga was using it to beat Milwall 4-0 And Crewe 5-0 And Bury 6-0.

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Firstly, in those 3 games you quote, we were playing 4-2-3-1. So Fleck and Vincelot had Murphy, Cole, and Maddison playing relatively narrow as a 3 in front of them, with Armstrong ahead of them. We are very much playing 4-4-2 this season and Vincenti starts very wide as does Jones and both naturally move inside. The 2nd key difference is that we'd been in L1 for a few years so we weren't seen as much of a scalp - teams were coming to play football and win. Whereas in L2 most teams have been happy with a point and the majority have played long ball because of the nature of the division.

This 4-4-2 formation has looked at it's best against Notts County and Carlisle which is no coincidence. Both those teams tried to play football and to win which left much more space for us to play in. Where I have been critical of the 4-4-2 with 2 defensive midfielders is against the negative teams set up not to lose (Port Vale, Newport, Chesterfield, Grimsby, Yeovil after we conceded). Here is an example of how we are set up against the poorer teams and I'll try to highlight a few characteristics of our play and where it's subsequentlybreaking down:

The Set up
* So firstly our back 4 has been playing pretty deeply so far this season, probably through fear of the long ball over the top.
* Jones (7) plays quite high and wide whereas Vincenti (11) is usually a bit deeper and wide and his height used as an outlet from goal kicks.
* Doyle (8) and Kelly (6) have been very deep protecting the back 4 and picking up the 2nd ball and knock downs when the opposition send the ball long.
* Jones' forward position on the pitch leaves a lot of room for Grimmer (2) to get forward (see blue arrow), which is why he has appeared much more attacking than Stokes who doesn't look fit enough to go past Vincenti consistently.
* Our strikers have played quite classically - McNulty (9) a bit higher than Beavon (10) who has mostly tried to move defenders around with lateral movement.

The consequences
On top of our formation I've then dropped some random red opposition, set up for a long ball draw - 2 banks of 4 not far from their own box with 2 big lumps (9 and 10) to aim at. I've then futher highlighted in the red oval, the absolutely huge gap in the middle of the pitch that it leaves us.

* It's easy for 'Red 3' to step up (red arrow) and double up on Jones (7) together with 'Red 11' which is why he was stifled for a few games (Newport onwards). Ideally you'd want Grimmer (2) going past Jones (7) so that he takes a man away from Jones leaving him 1 on 1 but a combination of the deep defence and Jones' high positioning means he's got an awful long way to go each time. Quite often then Jones either dribbles unsupported into 2 players or checks and plays backwards to Grimmer. Kelly (6) in the meantime drops into Grimmer's hole at right back as cover and so momentum completely breaks down as the only pass inside is to Doyle who can have 'Red 6, 8 and 9' on him by then or back into the back 4.
* Kelly or Doyle then get the ball from the back 4 just short of halfway but there's no blue shirt in the oval to pass to, so they play what looks like a nice looking 30 yard pass onto Vincenti's (11) head, but he's completely isolated (Stokes doesn't support, no pass inside as Kelly and Doyle are deep and miles away) so no-one gets onto his knock downs and people start to think he's shit.
* Another consequence: Beavon starts dropping deeper and deeper for the ball. The gap is now huge between our strikers and Beavon is still surrounded by Red 6 and 8 plus his marker Red 5 if he goes with him.

The fix
A lot of people (me included) were calling for Andreu in midfield at the expense of Doyle or Kelly but Robins clearly wants them both there for defensive cover and experience and after 5 clean sheets in 7 games you can't really blame him. Robins has definitely recognised the issue we have in breaking teams down though - in the last two games he's made tactical changes at half time to try and combat it, mainly by pushing the defence higher up the pitch which squashes the red oval by bringing the whole team closer together. He's also spoken in interviews too of the need for the back 4 to be braver. It worked yesterday - Kelly's through ball and Nazon's finish will get the plaudits but it was Vincenti who threaded the ball through to Kelly in the first place and it was possible because Kelly was for once higher than Vincenti on the pitch.

The conclusion
We're going to find more teams playing like Newport/Port Vale than we are Carlisle and we're still to really play well, start high or look incisive against a long ball team at 0-0. As Robins said we really are going to need to be braver against these teams to consistently take maximum points of them.

covcity4life · Sep 13, 2017

we send most of what comes at us right back. macdonald,willis,davies and hyam all seem like they could start for a top 7 league 2 team imo

my only worry is attack and reliance on jones now that andreu is out. but if hes fit we are the best team in this league imo and i would expect 10pts from every 15 all season long tbh

Cov kid 55 · Sep 13, 2017

Gosford Green said:
Defence looks good. Not convinced on the goal scoring side but if the opposition are having problems scoring we might only need to find 1or 2 scrappy goals each game. Peace of piss this league.

Good God - have some of us learned nothing from the defeats against Newport and Yeovil????

Nick · Sep 13, 2017

Cov kid 55 said:
Good God - have some of us learned nothing from the defeats against Newport and Yeovil????

Both goalkeeper howlers...

lifeskyblue · Sep 13, 2017

There's an awful long way to go but with a much improved, solid, more confident Burge; with a defence (perm any 4 from 6) that looks assured and capable of a run of conceding less than a goal a game we have every chance of grinding out results both home and away.

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Cov kid 55 · Sep 13, 2017

Nick said:
Both goalkeeper howlers...

And we didn't score. I'm just saying, we know that there was a massive over reaction to our first two wins, followed by an over reaction to the following defeats. Do you believe that we are going to find this league a p of p?

Otis · Sep 13, 2017

Cov kid 55 said:
And we didn't score. I'm just saying, we know that there was a massive over reaction to our first two wins, followed by an over reaction to the following defeats. Do you believe that we are going to find this league a p of p?

Nope. More like a fatberg.

covcity4life · Sep 13, 2017

Cov kid 55 said:
And we didn't score. I'm just saying, we know that there was a massive over reaction to our first two wins, followed by an over reaction to the following defeats. Do you believe that we are going to find this league a p of p?

there is an argument to say it will be considering we dont score many yet are 4th and only lost due to gk errors so far......

the rumpo kid · Sep 13, 2017

Just looking at the short clip of the highlights and that game could have easily been 2-2 if that one that hit the bar was 2 inches lower and a terrible missed header with an open goal in front of him. Saying that we could also of had a couple more with better finishing.

Astute · Sep 13, 2017

We are

Cov kid 55 said:
And we didn't score. I'm just saying, we know that there was a massive over reaction to our first two wins, followed by an over reaction to the following defeats. Do you believe that we are going to find this league a p of p?

We are not going to score in every game. We are not going to keep a clean sheet in every game. We are not going to win every game. But if we continue to score twice the amount that we let in we should do well.

Nobody has said we will piss this division. But no club will play us and expect to win. Many will be wondering if they will even score a goal.

robbiekeane · Sep 13, 2017

Esoterica said:
Firstly, in those 3 games you quote, we were playing 4-2-3-1. So Fleck and Vincelot had Murphy, Cole, and Maddison playing relatively narrow as a 3 in front of them, with Armstrong ahead of them. We are very much playing 4-4-2 this season and Vincenti starts very wide as does Jones and both naturally move inside. The 2nd key difference is that we'd been in L1 for a few years so we weren't seen as much of a scalp - teams were coming to play football and win. Whereas in L2 most teams have been happy with a point and the majority have played long ball because of the nature of the division.

This 4-4-2 formation has looked at it's best against Notts County and Carlisle which is no coincidence. Both those teams tried to play football and to win which left much more space for us to play in. Where I have been critical of the 4-4-2 with 2 defensive midfielders is against the negative teams set up not to lose (Port Vale, Newport, Chesterfield, Grimsby, Yeovil after we conceded). Here is an example of how we are set up against the poorer teams and I'll try to highlight a few characteristics of our play and where it's subsequentlybreaking down:
View attachment 8014
The Set up
* So firstly our back 4 has been playing pretty deeply so far this season, probably through fear of the long ball over the top.
* Jones (7) plays quite high and wide whereas Vincenti (11) is usually a bit deeper and wide and his height used as an outlet from goal kicks.
* Doyle (8) and Kelly (6) have been very deep protecting the back 4 and picking up the 2nd ball and knock downs when the opposition send the ball long.
* Jones' forward position on the pitch leaves a lot of room for Grimmer (2) to get forward (see blue arrow), which is why he has appeared much more attacking than Stokes who doesn't look fit enough to go past Vincenti consistently.
* Our strikers have played quite classically - McNulty (9) a bit higher than Beavon (10) who has mostly tried to move defenders around with lateral movement.

The consequences
On top of our formation I've then dropped some random red opposition, set up for a long ball draw - 2 banks of 4 not far from their own box with 2 big lumps (9 and 10) to aim at. I've then futher highlighted in the red oval, the absolutely huge gap in the middle of the pitch that it leaves us.

* It's easy for 'Red 3' to step up (red arrow) and double up on Jones (7) together with 'Red 11' which is why he was stifled for a few games (Newport onwards). Ideally you'd want Grimmer (2) going past Jones (7) so that he takes a man away from Jones leaving him 1 on 1 but a combination of the deep defence and Jones' high positioning means he's got an awful long way to go each time. Quite often then Jones either dribbles unsupported into 2 players or checks and plays backwards to Grimmer. Kelly (6) in the meantime drops into Grimmer's hole at right back as cover and so momentum completely breaks down as the only pass inside is to Doyle who can have 'Red 6, 8 and 9' on him by then or back into the back 4.
* Kelly or Doyle then get the ball from the back 4 just short of halfway but there's no blue shirt in the oval to pass to, so they play what looks like a nice looking 30 yard pass onto Vincenti's (11) head, but he's completely isolated (Stokes doesn't support, no pass inside as Kelly and Doyle are deep and miles away) so no-one gets onto his knock downs and people start to think he's shit.
* Another consequence: Beavon starts dropping deeper and deeper for the ball. The gap is now huge between our strikers and Beavon is still surrounded by Red 6 and 8 plus his marker Red 5 if he goes with him.

The fix
A lot of people (me included) were calling for Andreu in midfield at the expense of Doyle or Kelly but Robins clearly wants them both there for defensive cover and experience and after 5 clean sheets in 7 games you can't really blame him. Robins has definitely recognised the issue we have in breaking teams down though - in the last two games he's made tactical changes at half time to try and combat it, mainly by pushing the defence higher up the pitch which squashes the red oval by bringing the whole team closer together. He's also spoken in interviews too of the need for the back 4 to be braver. It worked yesterday - Kelly's through ball and Nazon's finish will get the plaudits but it was Vincenti who threaded the ball through to Kelly in the first place and it was possible because Kelly was for once higher than Vincenti on the pitch.

The conclusion
We're going to find more teams playing like Newport/Port Vale than we are Carlisle and we're still to really play well, start high or look incisive against a long ball team at 0-0. As Robins said we really are going to need to be braver against these teams to consistently take maximum points of them.

nice

Esoterica · Sep 13, 2017

Cranfield Sky Blue said:
I thought Grimmer was top class tonight. Stokes still baffles me. Before Blackpool away and that injury he was awesome.. Now, I'm not so sure. Hopefully he just needs games. Willis walks this league and Davies seems an able replacement for McDonald. It will be interesting to see who plays on Saturday!

The midfield defensive work also helps.

PUSB

I agree with that - thought Davies looked excellent last night. Weird feeling after recent seasons being spoilt for choice at centre back.

Our defence (2 Viewers)

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