one thing the "keep thorn" brigade needs to understand...... (10 Viewers)

olderskyblue · Feb 16, 2012

"Any other period of our history? I have never seen s squad so threadbare and a board so miss manage ever!! so how can his results be held up against all others so blindly! No he is not great, but the current situation doesnt help sisu will not change him so - yes he needs to work on his tactics, but he is trying and i do believe the players let him, us and themselves down at times too."

I cannot recall anytime in my almost 50yrs of supporting the club where the board were so vilified (correctly in my view) and I think in any other period, and with this run of results, fans would be wanting AT out. That's all (as kduffy understood)

I know he's trying, doing his best etc etc but surely it cannot be disputed that the hate-sisu focus has kept him relatively safe from the fans anger ?

"I'm sorry OSB, but to claim Thorn is in any sense a "lucky manager" is to ignore the numerous freak goals against, squandered chances and losses in games which we have dominated possession and created more chances than the opposition - of which there have been many. Not to mention that he has been saddled with lying owners who sell his top scorer.

He couldn't be more unlucky if he tried. "

I always thought we had freak goals, errors from players, squandered chances every season. Damn, must pay more attention

"While this is true it's also a redundant point to make because at no other period in our history has a manager of ours had to work under circumstances as dire as this."

As I said earlier, in no other period has the manager been "protected" from the fans wroth as AT is now.

As someone said earlier, if AT could be that untried manager that succeeds beyond any other in the last 10 years at CCFC, I would be delighted, as I suspect everybody on here would? My point is not about whether he is, or can be that manager, it's purely about me believing he has had an easy ride from the fans due to the hate for SISU. The end of the season will show if that was a good or bad thing.

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

olderskyblue said:
I know he's trying, doing his best etc etc but surely it cannot be disputed that the hate-sisu focus has kept him relatively safe from the fans anger ?

Hate SISU focus?

How many SISU out threads has there been lately? How many Thorn out threads lately?

It seems to me that some fans know they can't do anything to get rid of SISU. They want change. What can they change? Managers always get sacked.

AT's motivational skills to me is his best attribute. He was part of the crazy gang. He played in a team that over achieved. We have played well considering how poor and small our squad is. We were favourites with the bookies to go down at the start of the season. About half of our fans thought we would go down this season. We lost our top goalscorer. Still, we have supporters that want him out. He has made mistakes. He is not perfect. We have teams around us with players that would walk into our team. How many of our players would walk into other teams?

I have an admission to make. Anyone remember at the start of the season where I was offering bets on us going down? I have layed a lot of money on betfair on us staying up. If we stay up I collect a decent 4 figure sum. I am sh1tting myself at the moment, but now feel a lot easier with it. Just layed some more :facepalm: We are still favourites to go down. It is us, Doncaster then Portsmouth. Forest come next at 2.08, just over evens. I have just bet on Bristol City to go down. They are 5th favourite to go down. My bets have taken them from 4.8 down to 4.3

Come on City, come on AT

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 16, 2012

Colonel Mustard said:
Could AT do better with more money? Perhaps. Will he go on to have a glorious career as a manager? Perhaps. But both are irrelevant to where we have been all season.

Our financial position has EVERYTHING to do with our league position. I don't know how you can think otherwise.

How many games have we dominated this season but been crying out for a striker of MK's quality to take the bull by the horns and tuck away our chances? You're only as good as your front two and the arrival of Nimely may just give us a chance of staying up. His turn of pace and quick feet gives a different dimension. Each time he stays down though I have my heart in my mouth.

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

Would temper this slightly and say the financial sitaution has very much to do with our league position, not everything.

We would struggle whoever was in charge.

Not convinced we would be bottom of the table though. A relegation dogfight, but not bottom of the table and bottom three since October of last year.

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 16, 2012

Otis said:
Would temper this slightly and say the financial sitaution has very much to do with our league position, not everything.

We would struggle whoever was in charge.

Not convinced we would be bottom of the table though. A relegation dogfight, but not bottom of the table and bottom three since October of last year.

I'd have to disagree Otis. I think with the youth and inexperience we've had to field it's only because of the belief Thorn has instilled in the players that we're still in with a fighting chance.

Some say it couldn't get any worse but I can't understand that. It doesn't bear thinking the number of points we'd be on if their heads had dropped.

torchomatic · Feb 16, 2012

I think this is spot on and something I've mentioned in the past. I do think because fans can't get SiSU out then they switch to an easier target, the manager. And NLHWCs point earlier also rings true for me. There are people on here who I'm convinced want the team to lose so they can use it to beat Thorn with it.

The post match threads after Leeds were interesting. Or should I say the lack of them compared to Black pool and other defeats. What also shocks me is the vitriol and abuse that is thrown at AT by these forum members too. You would think he was manager of another team!

A lot of people forget - conveniently - the context of our results and the circumstances Thorn is working under.

Astute said:
Hate SISU focus?

How many SISU out threads has there been lately? How many Thorn out threads lately?

It seems to me that some fans know they can't do anything to get rid of SISU. They want change. What can they change? Managers always get sacked.

AT's motivational skills to me is his best attribute. He was part of the crazy gang. He played in a team that over achieved. We have played well considering how poor and small our squad is. We were favourites with the bookies to go down at the start of the season. About half of our fans thought we would go down this season. We lost our top goalscorer. Still, we have supporters that want him out. He has made mistakes. He is not perfect. We have teams around us with players that would walk into our team. How many of our players would walk into other teams?

I have an admission to make. Anyone remember at the start of the season where I was offering bets on us going down? I have layed a lot of money on betfair on us staying up. If we stay up I collect a decent 4 figure sum. I am sh1tting myself at the moment, but now feel a lot easier with it. Just layed some more :facepalm: We are still favourites to go down. It is us, Doncaster then Portsmouth. Forest come next at 2.08, just over evens. I have just bet on Bristol City to go down. They are 5th favourite to go down. My bets have taken them from 4.8 down to 4.3

Come on City, come on AT

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

torchomatic said:
I think this is spot on and something I've mentioned in the past. I do think because fans can't get SiSU out then they switch to an easier target, the manager. And NLHWCs point earlier also rings true for me. There are people on here who I'm convinced want the team to lose so they can use it to beat Thorn with it.

The post match threads after Leeds were interesting. Or should I say the lack of them compared to Black pool and other defeats. What also shocks me is the vitriol and abuse that is thrown at AT by these forum members too. You would think he was manager of another team!

A lot of people forget - conveniently - the context of our results and the circumstances Thorn is working under.

If you think people on here want City to lose so they can have a further go at Thorn and push him out the door then you are truly crazy in the coconut. :facepalm:
:facepalm:

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

GinettasStickySofa said:
I'd have to disagree Otis. I think with the youth and inexperience we've had to field it's only because of the belief Thorn has instilled in the players that we're still in with a fighting chance.

Some say it couldn't get any worse but I can't understand that. It doesn't bear thinking the number of points we'd be on if their heads had dropped.

Isn't it strange how some of us can see it the way it is and others can't seem to comprehend the situation we are in. As in another manager would having us playing better and scoring more goals when we have a lack of goalscorers. We hopefully now are seeing the difference now we have a striker in Nimely. Not only does it give us more chance to score goals, but helps to hold our opponents back as they know we have a player that wants to run at them. They can't afford to keep just 1 or 2 players back whilst they attack us.

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

No, don't put words in my mouth. Said a dozen times or more on many threads, if we had another manager we would still be in a relegation dogfight. I have no doubt about that. I am convinced though that we wouldn't have been in the bottom 3 since October and 7 points adrift at the bottom by Christmas.

Yes we're bad, but not that bad.

Most people have accepted that Thorn has made mistakes that have probably cost us points.

There's the answer. No way with this team should we have been 7 or 8 points adrift at the bottom since Christmas. We are not that bad! A relegation team, yes, but a cast adrift at the bottom of the league team, no!

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 16, 2012

Astute said:
Isn't it strange how some of us can see it the way it is and others can't seem to comprehend the situation we are in. As in another manager would having us playing better and scoring more goals when we have a lack of goalscorers. We hopefully now are seeing the difference now we have a striker in Nimely. Not only does it give us more chance to score goals, but helps to hold our opponents back as they know we have a player that wants to run at them. They can't afford to keep just 1 or 2 players back whilst they attack us.

I thought that myself Tuesday night. There was a moment where we cleared it out and instead of having it come back at us again there was Nimely waiting in the middle with 2 players on him. Makes all the difference.

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

Otis said:
No, don't put words in my mouth. Said a dozen times or more on many threads, if we had another manager we would still be in a relegation dogfight. I have no doubt about that. I am convinced though that we wouldn't have been in the bottom 3 since October and 7 points adrift at the bottom by Christmas.

Yes we're bad, but not that bad.

Most people have accepted that Thorn has made mistakes that have probably cost us points.

There's the answer. No way with this team should we have been 7 or 8 points adrift at the bottom since Christmas. We are not that bad! A relegation team, yes, but a cast adrift at the bottom of the league team, no!

So another manager would have come in, not made mistakes and got us scoring without goalscorers in our squad? Maybe, but maybe not. Would a new manager got us playing better than we have been? Would a new manager have made better subs than AT when we don't have the quality players to bring on?

torchomatic · Feb 16, 2012

I really do believe that and others have said so too. Sad, but true.

Otis said:
If you think people on here want City to lose so they can have a further go at Thorn and push him out the door then you are truly crazy in the coconut. :facepalm:
:facepalm:

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

I wouldn't say they want us to lose, but they seem to get pleasure going on about how crap AT is as a manager, forgetting who he has to get us out of the relegation battle we are in.

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

Astute said:
So another manager would have come in, not made mistakes and got us scoring without goalscorers in our squad? Maybe, but maybe not. Would a new manager got us playing better than we have been? Would a new manager have made better subs than AT when we don't have the quality players to bring on?

You think an expereinced manager would have come in faced a team and not done his homework on the opposition to see what tactics they deploy? Seriously?

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

Otis said:
You think an expereinced manager would have come in faced a team and not done his homework on the opposition to see what tactics they deploy? Seriously?

And used players he did not have to counteract our opponents? We are down to the bare bones. We are just about able to put a team out. I suppose we could put wingers on when we don't have any.

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

Not talking about that, I'm talking about Blackpool at home. That was the point when I said to myself this bloke doesn't know what he is doing. He clearly had not done his homework on
the oppostion and whatever way you want to dress that up that was truly, truly shocking.

In all my time of watching the City I have never ever come across anything like it.

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

Otis said:
Not talking about that, I'm talking about Blackpool at home. That was the point when I said to myself this bloke doesn't know what he is doing. He clearly had not done his homework on
the oppostion and whatever way you want to dress that up that was truly, truly shocking.

In all my time of watching the City I have never ever come across anything like it.

Do you mean subs, like we didn't use any against Leeds as we didn't have the quality on the bench to change things. How come there were no complaints about lack of subs against Leeds, but if it was them that got the late winner it would have been the fault of AT as we had tired players at the end of the game.

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

No.

Said this before.

This is what happened.

1. I was at the game, had the radio on too. The Blacpool BBC radio presenter came to talk to Clive Eakin, pre-game. Happens every match that an opposing presenter comes for a chat.

2. Eakin asked, "So what can we expect from Blackpool tonight?"

3. BBC Blackpool bloke: "Well, the one thing Blacpool will do is play a long raking ball over the top of the full backs. It is a tactic they have deployed all seson in every single game thus far and it has brought some successfor them. They always use this tactic"

4. Game kicks off, I looked out for it and Blackpool deployed this exact tactic and I counted six times before Thorn changed tactics to try and combat it.

5. By then however we were a goal down.

6. Post match interview. Thorn: They changed one or two things and did some things we weren't expecting so we had to change things in the first half.' Foster: "That ball over the top of the fullbacks you mean?" Thorn: "Yes."

Unbelievable. That was the point in time when I lost faith in the guy. That and his lambasting of Bigi after he got sent off.

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

So AT makes mistakes. We need a manager that don't make mistakes, like Wenger. Isn't it a shame we have the first manager at our club for years that makes mistakes because he is inexperienced We should have kept our previous managers that kept us out of the bottom 3 with a worse squad than we have now

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

Have you ever heard of a manager not studying and finding out how the opposition play before a game? Ever heard of a manager not knowing anything at all about a tactic that the opposition deploy every game and had done for so for many matches before?

As you said on another thread, maybe he's learning from his mistakes. Well i hope that's true. That Blackpool mistake was one of enormous proportions though. The sort of mistake that's not even schoolboy level. It's was unbelievable.

Yes managers make mistakes. Not that sort of mistake though. That shakes the foundations of your thinking as to whether the bloke is capable of doing the job at all.

Stand by my statement Yes, another manager here would still have us in a relegation struggle. Would they have made the same mistakes ... well that Blackpool one for starters, absolutely bloody not!

torchomatic · Feb 16, 2012

So apart from obsessing over Blackpool Gate. Is he doing alright?

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

Don't be daft. That was the first game where I really started doubting him. He's made other bad errors too.

It was a fundamental error though this Blackpool one. The sort of error that if a colleague at work made it we would all be thinking they are incapable of doing their duties.

As I say, hope he's learned from his mistakes. It just blows out of the water though that no other manager could get better results with this team.

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

Otis said:
Have you ever heard of a manager not studying and finding out how the opposition play before a game? Ever heard of a manager not knowing anything at all about a tactic that the opposition deploy every game and had done for so for many matches before?

As you said on another thread, maybe he's learning from his mistakes. Well i hope that's true. That Blackpool mistake was one of enormous proportions though. The sort of mistake that's not even schoolboy level. It's was unbelievable.

Yes managers make mistakes. Not that sort of mistake though. That shakes the foundations of your thinking as to whether the bloke is capable of doing the job at all.

Stand by my statement Yes, another manager here would still have us in a relegation struggle. Would they have made the same mistakes ... well that Blackpool one for starters, absolutely bloody not!

So you even know what types of mistakes another manager we have not decided on the identity of would make?

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

Otis said:
It just blows out of the water though that no other manager could get better results with this team.

It just blows me out of the water though that no other manager could get worse results with this team :thinking about:

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

How could the results be much worse?

As has been said til blue in the face, no-one, not one of us predicted just 5 wins out of 30 games before the season, no matter had bad we thought we were going to be. Relegation yes, but not as bad as we have been.

If you are happy that the Blackpool BBC presenter knew how Blackpool were going to play, but our own manager didn't then that's fine.

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

Otis said:
How could the results be much worse?

As has been said til blue in the face, no-one, not one of us predicted just 5 wins out of 30 games before the season, no matter had bad we thought we were going to be. Relegation yes, but not as bad as we have been.

If you are happy that the Blackpool BBC presenter knew how Blackpool were going to play, but our own manager didn't then that's fine.

I'm sorry. I thought getting relegated with 2 teams below us was about as good as it could get. We have 2 teams below us. Portsmouth should be on the same points as us tomorrow. We could be 3 points out of the bottom 3 saturday.

I remember when we had AB as manager. One thing sticks in my mind was the amount of fans saying they would prefer passing football and relegation battle than hoofball. I suppose even AB would have done better than AT with this squad? We have had experienced managers struggle in this division every season except for when Wise dragged us from a relegation battle to 8th almost single handedly. Then we are supposed to believe that another manager would be doing better than AT with easily the worse squad we have had since going down. You say it as a fact. A fact it is not. As I have said, might be better, might be worse.

Nick · Feb 16, 2012

Astute said:
I'm sorry. I thought getting relegated with 2 teams below us was about as good as it could get. We have 2 teams below us. Portsmouth should be on the same points as us tomorrow. We could be 3 points out of the bottom 3 saturday.

I remember when we had AB as manager. One thing sticks in my mind was the amount of fans saying they would prefer passing football and relegation battle than hoofball. I suppose even AB would have done better than AT with this squad? We have had experienced managers struggle in this division every season except for when Wise dragged us from a relegation battle to 8th almost single handedly. Then we are supposed to believe that another manager would be doing better than AT with easily the worse squad we have had since going down. You say it as a fact. A fact it is not. As I have said, might be better, might be worse.

They also have games in hand over us, I think Doncaster have 2 which could mean 6 points? Once we are all level in games then it will be clearer

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

Nick said:
They also have games in hand over us, I think Doncaster have 2 which could mean 6 points? Once we are all level in games then it will be clearer

Sure will. Such a shame they are doing worse than us lately. We are mid table on latest form so it is looking good so far. Feeling the most confident since before we lost most of our team closed season.

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

As I say, Astute, hope you're right.

Can I just add though, I have never said I believe it as a fact that we would do better with a different manager to Thorn ....... only that we could do better with a different manager.

covcity4life · Feb 16, 2012

torchomatic said:
I think this is spot on and something I've mentioned in the past. I do think because fans can't get SiSU out then they switch to an easier target, the manager. And NLHWCs point earlier also rings true for me. There are people on here who I'm convinced want the team to lose so they can use it to beat Thorn with it.

The post match threads after Leeds were interesting. Or should I say the lack of them compared to Black pool and other defeats. What also shocks me is the vitriol and abuse that is thrown at AT by these forum members too. You would think he was manager of another team!

A lot of people forget - conveniently - the context of our results and the circumstances Thorn is working under.

the original post points out that the majority do not WANT thorn to lose matches,so why the hell are you still running your mouth?

oldskyblue58 · Feb 16, 2012

Blackpool used the same tactic against us at the Ricoh and that left our fullbacks very exposed particularly Hussey who got absolutely hammered for his performance that day some. It wasnt a new, unknown or even unexpected tactic.

Another manager could do worse could do better - would certainly do it differently in some way or other - we just dont know and have no way of knowing at this moment. Saying no one could do better or that someone will do better is just an opinion not a fact.

AT makes mistakes - we all do. Wanting someone different is just an opinion as is wanting to keep him. Doesnt actually make anyone wrong or right

As for the need to praise - yes credit should be given where credit is due - AT gets criticised if we lose or is perceived to get something wrong, why is that such a surprise ? Yes he should share the praise when we win. But take it away from football and in the workplace or even at home do you get praised everytime for getting something right, or is that praise little and not often. It is unfortunately they way most humans are - quick to criticise slow to praise. It isnt a big issue - on both sides of the AT in or out debate there are plenty of people who show those very human traits. It is only opinions each just as and only as valid as the next

Astute · Feb 16, 2012

I have always said we might do better with another manager. Nothing is definite in life other than taxes and death. You don't seem to think though that it could be worse. Forest have a better squad than us. They have better players than us. Where have they gone wrong? At least our players are giving their full effort every game. Other than FF that is.

covcity4life · Feb 16, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
Blackpool used the same tactic against us at the Ricoh and that left our fullbacks very exposed particularly Hussey who got absolutely hammered for his performance that day some. It wasnt a new, unknown or even unexpected tactic.

Another manager could do worse could do better - would certainly do it differently in some way or other - we just dont know and have no way of knowing at this moment. Saying no one could do better or that someone will do better is just an opinion not a fact.

AT makes mistakes - we all do. Wanting someone different is just an opinion as is wanting to keep him. Doesnt actually make anyone wrong or right

you will not find a better post in this thread than the above

close this please mod lol

Nonleagueherewecome · Feb 16, 2012

Otis said:
If you are happy that the Blackpool BBC presenter knew how Blackpool were going to play, but our own manager didn't then that's fine.

Of course he does, he bloody watches them every week!

There's one slight problem with lambasting Thorn for not scouting the opposition: he is our scout. Seeing as they mostly play on the same days as us, that represents a bit of a problem! West Ham probably have a scout at most of the teams in the division..we can't afford one who isn't also our manager.

Otis · Feb 16, 2012

You not heard of video then? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

one thing the "keep thorn" brigade needs to understand...... (10 Viewers)

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Administrator

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

CCFC Finance Director

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Users who are viewing this thread

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency