one thing the "keep thorn" brigade needs to understand...... (1 Viewer)

covcity4life · Feb 15, 2012

.........is that the "thorn out" brigade dont hate AT and dont WANT him to fail.

if he keeps cov up ill be sooooo happy and respect the man,ive always said he has potential as a manager but its not worth relegation to nurture it, thus myself and others have called for change
its wrong to believe that only AT can keep us up and any other manager would defientley do worse

but anyway back to my my original point,dont act like kids and say i told you so after a win because every cov fan WANTS thorn to succeed,its just some are not sure if he will.

rant over

PUSB

Otis · Feb 15, 2012

Well said that man. :claping hands::claping hands:

And let's not forget, this was just 1 win. 1 solitary win. Doesn't suddenly make everything all hunky dory again.

We need a good run. We haven't had one all season long. We need a run of 3 or 4 unbeaten. then we can start thinking about fanfares and blowing trumpets.

Colonel Mustard · Feb 15, 2012

It's a shame that you felt the need to make a post like that, OP. All of what you said ought to be painfully obvious, but clearly the posts of the last 24 hours show that the points needed to be reiterated.

Otis · Feb 15, 2012

Yep, one win and it is all back to isn't Thorn wonderful again.

Colonel Mustard · Feb 15, 2012

Otis said:
Yep, one win and it is all back to isn't Thorn wonderful again.

Five losses in seven, four months in the relegation zone, worst points average in the Championship. Clearly the man's a phenomenon and has been cruelly misjudged by those who merely hate AT for being overweight.

kg82 · Feb 15, 2012

Well, with statements like the last 2 is it any wonder positions need clarifying?! I neither hate nor adore the man, he is our manager and I support the team. I get frustrated with his tactics as much as I get excited when we win. What I don't like is the labelling of supporters as being in this "brigade" or that "brigade".

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Feb 15, 2012

Permit me to explain from where the frustration arises.

Hark back to the Blackpool match thread; which had many hundreds of posts. We were playing well, and winning to a point. Only one person, ahead of the goals being conceded mentioned Thorn should have changed it. Certain posters - who's opinions toward Thorn always appear half-empty as opposed to half-full - hadn't posted a thing. Then, the late goals go in; and the thread is veritably alightened by the posters who had 'til this point appeared silent. And do you know what else? Everyone knew retrospectively that Thorn should have changed it.

Compare and contrast - if you will - to the thread I started last night in which I invited at least some praise of Thorn's performance on the night. The thread had been viewed over 100 times before any more than one person would offer any measured praise in his direction. By this same point, over 30 posts had been forthcoming on the Blackpool thread to castigate the fat oaf's ineptitude....

Rightly or wrongly - and I think we are all agreed that the performance of Thorn and his squad over the season isn't acceptable - there's a tangible whiff that this forum's most vociferous posters only appear like Dracula from a coffin when there's the macabre to rubber-neck over; and such behaviour will often bring an equally unrealistic defence of Thorn's record.

Shades of grey, my friend; shades of grey......

olderskyblue · Feb 15, 2012

AT not changing things when he should has been a consistent theme all season, not just after the Blackpool match, and if their wasn't so much sisu hatred around, the vociferous posters would have been on AT's back long ago. He is a very lucky manager.

Astute · Feb 15, 2012

If AT had a half decent squad to choose from I would be shouting louder than anyone else for his head. Our team picks itself. Whoever isn't too injured has a chance of playing however inexperienced or shit they are.

Nonleagueherewecome · Feb 15, 2012

I'm sorry but there are some on this forum who would love to see him fired to the point where they don't like it when we win. You know, those one's that just swear and call him drunk and fat...they do exist! They just go very quiet at these moments.

OP-can't you understand that the pro-Thorn lot feel some justification for our man after a win is fair enough? The quantity of rabid anti-Thorn threads when we lose is MILES more than the ones saying "told you so" when we win. We aren't the childish pathetic ones. I'm sorry, but for us the success when we win is even sweeter than for the anti-Thorn folk.

Colonel Mustard · Feb 15, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Rightly or wrongly - and I think we are all agreed that the performance of Thorn and his squad over the season isn't acceptable - there's a tangible whiff that this forum's most vociferous posters only appear like Dracula from a coffin when there's the macabre to rubber-neck over; and such behaviour will often bring an equally unrealistic defence of Thorn's record. Shades of grey, my friend; shades of grey......

I see this issue of balance keep raising its head. I'm more interested in objectivity than balance.

Those wishing for a change in manager have a strong case, and have had a strong case for a long time. Tactics, subs, motivation be damned - the facts read that we have the lowest point average in the Championship and have spent four months in the relegation zone (the majority of which has been bottom).

Could AT do better with more money? Perhaps. Will he go on to have a glorious career as a manager? Perhaps. But both are irrelevant to where we have been all season. Those who push for a change in manager wish AT no ill will, but want the club to stay in the second-tier of football.

Now. Up against that is a defence consisting of "he's doing the best he can", "he's a passionate bloke", "nobody could do better". And then a push for a merit badge after a win (despite the form being five losses in seven).

Let's be absolutely frank about this - a large section of fans have put the manager before the club. And that is the first time in my history of supporting the club that I have ever seen something like that. It may be considered optimistic, passionate, positive, glass half-full...but it's hurting the club.

BackRoomRummermill · Feb 15, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Permit me to explain from where the frustration arises.

Hark back to the Blackpool match thread; which had many hundreds of posts. We were playing well, and winning to a point. Only one person, ahead of the goals being conceded mentioned Thorn should have changed it. Certain posters - who's opinions toward Thorn always appear half-empty as opposed to half-full - hadn't posted a thing. Then, the late goals go in; and the thread is veritably alightened by the posters who had 'til this point appeared silent. And do you know what else? Everyone knew retrospectively that Thorn should have changed it.

Compare and contrast - if you will - to the thread I started last night in which I invited at least some praise of Thorn's performance on the night. The thread had been viewed over 100 times before any more than one person would offer any measured praise in his direction. By this same point, over 30 posts had been forthcoming on the Blackpool thread to castigate the fat oaf's ineptitude....

Rightly or wrongly - and I think we are all agreed that the performance of Thorn and his squad over the season isn't acceptable - there's a tangible whiff that this forum's most vociferous posters only appear like Dracula from a coffin when there's the macabre to rubber-neck over; and such behaviour will often bring an equally unrealistic defence of Thorn's record.

Shades of grey, my friend; shades of grey......

After the Reading Game I don't recall any negativity and not all blamed Thorn , In fact I actually stated that Thorn was not to blame.

So it is not as clear cut as you are portraying it to be

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Feb 15, 2012

olderskyblue said:
AT not changing things when he should has been a consistent theme all season, not just after the Blackpool match, and if their wasn't so much sisu hatred around, the vociferous posters would have been on AT's back long ago. He is a very lucky manager.

OSB! I normally hold your offerings in high esteem, but to call Thorn a very lucky manager is something that's made me sit down and have a sweet cup of tea. Has someone hacked into your account?

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Feb 15, 2012

CM: your claims to be wishing to be objective or to view the entire body of a man's work are sharply in contrast with your view that it's okay to get rid of a manager who hasn't even seen a season out. The two are entirely at odds with one another; and frankly speaking fly at odds with the wisdom of the balance of the footballing world. I truly can't fathom where you're coming from.

As for the position the manager has in the minds of many supporters; I think many support him unconditionally - almost blindly - as they see the way he's been hung out to dry by the owners. Exactly as Ferguson was at PNE. Difference was, they sacked him and went down anyway. Since then, he's done brilliantly as Posh, and they're still languishing mid-third tier.

And no-one asked for a merit badge after one win. I simply was looking for a balanced hand between criticism when due and praise when due. And that doesn't appear to exist

olderskyblue · Feb 15, 2012

MMM, you really need to check the footer on my post....

Also, he has been lucky. The results he has had while in charge would, in any other period of our history, have had calls for his sacking long ago, and certainly not the "Andy thorn's Sky Blue Army" song on a regular basis.

scroobiustom · Feb 15, 2012

AT is not the other thing involved here, all the backroom staff do there job and lets be honest would another manager and his own set of people do any better given the constraints of SISU and a very average squad. I think not.

Thorn In, SISU out

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Feb 15, 2012

olderskyblue said:
MMM, you really need to check the footer on my post....

Also, he has been lucky. The results he has had while in charge would, in any other period of our history, have had calls for his sacking long ago, and certainly not the "Andy thorn's Sky Blue Army" song on a regular basis.

Sorry dear chap. I evidently only was in possession of half of the facts and charged on with an errant view. Quite commonplace, don't you know ;-)

I think he's had the leniency of treatment, as many folk look at the bigger picture and not simply the stats or league table. I too can empathise with an element of this thinking. If he had the resources of Forest, I think he'd been shouted out at every game. Do you know, Forest started last night with Harewood and Miller up front, and left Reid on the bench?!? Just sayin'...

smileycov · Feb 15, 2012

olderskyblue said:
MMM, you really need to check the footer on my post....

Also, he has been lucky. The results he has had while in charge would, in any other period of our history, have had calls for his sacking long ago, and certainly not the "Andy thorn's Sky Blue Army" song on a regular basis.

Any other period of our history? I have never seen s squad so threadbare and a board so miss manage ever!! so how can his results be held up against all others so blindly! No he is not great, but the current situation doesnt help sisu will not change him so - yes he needs to work on his tactics, but he is trying and i do believe the players let him, us and themselves down at times too.

@richh87 · Feb 15, 2012

olderskyblue said:
MMM, you really need to check the footer on my post....

Also, he has been lucky. The results he has had while in charge would, in any other period of our history, have had calls for his sacking long ago, and certainly not the "Andy thorn's Sky Blue Army" song on a regular basis.

I'm sorry OSB, but to claim Thorn is in any sense a "lucky manager" is to ignore the numerous freak goals against, squandered chances and losses in games which we have dominated possession and created more chances than the opposition - of which there have been many. Not to mention that he has been saddled with lying owners who sell his top scorer.

He couldn't be more unlucky if he tried.

Grendel · Feb 15, 2012

@richh87 said:
I'm sorry OSB, but to claim Thorn is in any sense a "lucky manager" is to ignore the numerous freak goals against, squandered chances and losses in games which we have dominated possession and created more chances than the opposition - of which there have been many. Not to mention that he has been saddled with lying owners who sell his top scorer.

He couldn't be more unlucky if he tried.

I think you will find the term "lucky" is in reference to off-field matters. Even you must admit more interested owners whatever the justification or not would have parted company with him now. He is also lucky in that he was initially given the role. So again the owners looking for someone on the cheap has worked to his advantage. That I assume is what the comment referred to.

Astute · Feb 15, 2012

kduffy said:
I think you will find the term "lucky" is in reference to off-field matters. Even you must admit more interested owners whatever the justification or not would have parted company with him now. He is also lucky in that he was initially given the role. So again the owners looking for someone on the cheap has worked to his advantage. That I assume is what the comment referred to.

Does off field matters include SISU selling every player that can score goals? Does this include not replacing players sold?

Grendel · Feb 15, 2012

Astute said:
Does off field matters include SISU selling every player that can score goals? Does this include not replacing players sold?

I repeat the comment was made regarding his appointment and continued retention. If we were not selling every player we would I assume have greater financial stability which means he would not have been appointed anway.

ajsccfc · Feb 15, 2012

Can people please stop grouping things they don't like together and calling it a brigade?

The fire brigade are great, for example.

Otis · Feb 15, 2012

It's just daft.

It's all very, very childish from both sides! Some poster actually came out and said today in response to the duel of words, 'we didn't start it.' That has to be the most childish comment of the lot amongst all the inane tosh.

ajsccfc · Feb 15, 2012

scroobiustom said:
AT is not the other thing involved here, all the backroom staff do there job and lets be honest would another manager and his own set of people do any better given the constraints of SISU and a very average squad. I think not.

Thorn In, SISU out

The implication of this is that there isn't a manager alive who could do a better job with this side than a converted scout yet to complete a season of management. Thorn has a largely thankless task and he's doing his best, but there's really no basis for this rampant exaggeration at all.

Grendel · Feb 15, 2012

ajsccfc said:
The implication of this is that there isn't a manager alive who could do a better job with this side than a converted scout yet to complete a season of management. Thorn has a largely thankless task and he's doing his best, but there's really no basis for this rampant exaggeration at all.

Precisely. The implication is ferguson, wenger whoever could not generate one more point than thorn. In fact those very examples have been quoted. Nonsense.

Otis · Feb 15, 2012

One of the most ludicrous statements is that Thorn is doing so well with us on being 7 points adrift, as any other manager would have already had us relegated by now. :facepalm:

Astute · Feb 15, 2012

The time I say AT is doing well is to keep the players heads up and trying to win after everything that has happened. He has not done well to keep us near the bottom. He has not done well to make us lose by one goal nearly every game. He has not done well away from home. He has done well though to keep the squad together and to get them to give their all every game.

We have won 4 of our last 9 league games. 11 goals for, 11 goals against. How many teams at the bottom of the table with us would like form like this? Looks as though we are coming good at the best time. How much of this is to do with AT learning from his mistakes?

Macca · Feb 15, 2012

What about the boys brigade ?

Otis · Feb 15, 2012

Astute said:
The time I say AT is doing well is to keep the players heads up and trying to win after everything that has happened. He has not done well to keep us near the bottom. He has not done well to make us lose by one goal nearly every game. He has not done well away from home. He has done well though to keep the squad together and to get them to give their all every game.

We have won 4 of our last 9 league games. 11 goals for, 11 goals against. How many teams at the bottom of the table with us would like form like this? Looks as though we are coming good at the best time. How much of this is to do with AT learning from his mistakes?

I most certainly hope so, Astute. I have my fingers crossed for this scenario. Wouldn't be any happier City fan than myself if true believe me!

ExmouthNeil · Feb 15, 2012

If we do or don't stay up of the managers we've had in the past 6 years this is the man I've wanted to succeed more that any.... Because all the rest have done something at other clubs BUT not hear..... AT is the first untried manager we've had for a long time and has had to work in bar far and away the worst circumstances but has held his head high through it all.....

Even if it all goes tits up and he moves on I for one will always have a soft spot for him because he may not be the most experienced or best manager BUT at least he's given it his all.....

GOOD LUCK TO HIM AND THE PLAYER FOR THE REST OF THE SEASON......

PUSB............. I'm Behind you all the way!!!!!

SydneySkyBlue · Feb 15, 2012

olderskyblue said:
The results he has had while in charge would, in any other period of our history, have had calls for his sacking long ago, and certainly not the "Andy thorn's Sky Blue Army" song on a regular basis.

While this is true it's also a redundant point to make because at no other period in our history has a manager of ours had to work under circumstances as dire as this.

Nonleagueherewecome · Feb 15, 2012

Colonel Mustard said:
Could AT do better with more money? Perhaps. Will he go on to have a glorious career as a manager? Perhaps. But both are irrelevant to where we have been all season.

The argument that having money wouldn't have made a difference is a very silly one. So, you reckon that if he'd have signed 3 or 4 quality players to replace King and Aron (amongst others), and if he'd been able to keep Turner rather than being forced to sell him, it would have made no difference? So say we signed Rooney and Messi because we were billionaires-that'd make no difference? And I'm sure that West Ham signing the likes of Kevin Nolan for 4.5m and being able to keep England internationals like Cole and Green-that's made no difference?

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Colonel Mustard · Feb 15, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
CM: your claims to be wishing to be objective or to view the entire body of a man's work are sharply in contrast with your view that it's okay to get rid of a manager who hasn't even seen a season out. The two are entirely at odds with one another; and frankly speaking fly at odds with the wisdom of the balance of the footballing world. I truly can't fathom where you're coming from.

I explained this the other day, but I'll take another bash at it.

This is a league system, not a franchise system. If there was no threat of relegation then I would be happy to see any manager be given at least a season or two or three. He could blood the kids with no pressure, let them grow, develop a long-term strategy.

But because it is a league system, the emphasis shifts to how you manage what is available to you in the present. It is impossible to put an arbitrary timeline on a body of work...three games is likely too few, a full season could be too long if relegation is a threat.

I consider 31 games long enough to have formed a reasonable judgement over AT's abilities in his present circumstances. The table itself is the ultimate indicator - four months locked in the relegation zone. The situation hasn't been one of great variance. The SISU circumstances are completely irrelevant here...the facts show that AT cannot extract much more than relegation-calibre performances under these contraints. Hence the call for a change.

As for the position the manager has in the minds of many supporters; I think many support him unconditionally - almost blindly - as they see the way he's been hung out to dry by the owners. Exactly as Ferguson was at PNE. Difference was, they sacked him and went down anyway. Since then, he's done brilliantly as Posh, and they're still languishing mid-third tier.

Every case is individual. I think Ferguson was sacked too early for the reasons listed above, and certainly wouldn't have been calling for his head as a Peterborough fan. There's a difference between fan accountability and board accountability, e.g. Black.

And no-one asked for a merit badge after one win. I simply was looking for a balanced hand between criticism when due and praise when due. And that doesn't appear to exist

Because it strikes me as being very out of touch with what football's all about. If Thorn won 15 on the bounce, then he most certainly wouldn't warrant calls for his head/tough criticism if he lost a game. Equally, I'm not going to be quick to praise a man I consider to be leading CCFC to relegation. I certainly will do if he turns things around, but one swallow doesn't make a summer.

covcity4life · Feb 15, 2012

hum when i created this thread i didnt expect so many people to dispute that the thorn out brigade would not begrudge him success at city

you guys are pretty dumb.

one thing the "keep thorn" brigade needs to understand...... (1 Viewer)

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