New statement (1 Viewer)

Deleted member 5849 · Jul 22, 2014

torchomatic said:
So you would probably end up losing out then. Fair enough.

I can understand ACL wanting to tell SISU where to go, but at the end of the day they say they want the Club back at the Ricoh and there is a real chance here they could help make it happen. To just say "no" - which they have just done as it happens, makes a deal and thus a return unlikely. And yeah, SISU should drop the appeal, so the same applies to them.

Understandable? Yes. Sensible? No, not for me. Still they are apparently "very profitable" without us, so maybe they don't want us anyway.

Sometimes you have to play the game. Are SISU's recent statements just tactics to put pressure on ACL? Possibly. But then ACL have a past track record of belligerence themselves and pushing SISU into a corner... if this *is* a tactic by SISU to get what they want, then ACL are walking straight into the trap with their current attitude, and that seems self-defeating to me. Ann Lucas seems to get that you have to be open to the idea of talking, any time, on any subject. The conclusion of the chat would almost definitely be no deal, let's be realistic here, but at least in starting the process you've played the game and kept as many on-side as possible.

fernandopartridge · Jul 22, 2014

Monners said:
So if Sisu are serious about wishing to negotiate on a short term deal to return, it would make sense to drop the legal process. It will cost them nothing to do this

, and immediately remove one barrier. Are they serious in regard to returning now though?

Why the desperation for them to drop it? It's not going anywhere as the judge was quite clear. SISU will have to pay costs anyway? Not sure why it is that much of an issue

fernandopartridge · Jul 22, 2014

sky blue john said:
I know we will get the usual brigade blaming Acl for no talks. But I know I if someone was taking me to court at the same time wanting to deal with me, they would be told where to go.

They're taking the council to court you thick idiot.

Godiva · Jul 22, 2014

Monners said:
So if Sisu are serious about wishing to negotiate on a short term deal to return, it would make sense to drop the legal process. It will cost them nothing to do this

, and immediately remove one barrier. Are they serious in regard to returning now though?

Oh, I seriously believe they want to return.

But dropping the appeal? I doubt it. In any sense it's their only real bargaining chip they have left.
Their goal is to have the club playing in it's own stadium benefitting from all revenue streams possible.
That can happen in two ways - buy ACL or build a new stadium. In any of these scenarios a pending JR case is of immense value.
A new state aid case reviewed in the EU commission could well have much greater value in the long term than it has in negotiating a short term return to the Ricoh.

sky blue john · Jul 22, 2014

torchomatic said:
So you would probably end up losing out then. Fair enough.

I can understand ACL wanting to tell SISU where to go, but at the end of the day they say they want the Club back at the Ricoh and there is a real chance here they could help make it happen. To just say "no" - which they have just done as it happens, makes a deal and thus a return unlikely. And yeah, SISU should drop the appeal, so the same applies to them.

Understandable? Yes. Sensible? No, not for me. Still they are apparently "very profitable" without us, so maybe they don't want us anyway.

Obviously I want a deal done. But I won't be blaming Acl if they decide that they won't negotiate until Sisu stop trying to sue them.

sky blue john · Jul 22, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
They're taking the council to court you thick idiot.

Lmfao !!!
You really haven't a clue what's going on !!

Monners · Jul 22, 2014

Godiva said:
Oh, I seriously believe they want to return.

But dropping the appeal? I doubt it. In any sense it's their only real bargaining chip they have left.
Their goal is to have the club playing in it's own stadium benefitting from all revenue streams possible.
That can happen in two ways - buy ACL or build a new stadium. In any of these scenarios a pending JR case is of immense value.
A new state aid case reviewed in the EU commission could well have much greater value in the long term than it has in negotiating a short term return to the Ricoh.

Thats what I was getting at really - they are still playing the long game with the high risk strategy. The statement changes nothing.

Godiva · Jul 22, 2014

sky blue john said:
Obviously I want a deal done. But I won't be blaming Acl if they decide that they won't negotiate until Sisu stop trying to sue them.

They are not suing ACL - they accuse the council of unlawful state aid.

sky blue john · Jul 22, 2014

Godiva said:
They are not suing ACL - they accuse the council of unlawful state aid.

Who owns Acl ?

Godiva · Jul 22, 2014

Monners said:
Thats what I was getting at really - they are still playing the long game with the high risk strategy. The statement changes nothing.

Yes, I agree.
But there are many other stakeholders than ACL and sisu.
The fans of course, but also all the businesses in and around the Ricoh. They all have a say in this and it could happen that ACL/CCC in the end will allow the return on a short time contract while the JR goes on.

Godiva · Jul 22, 2014

sky blue john said:
Who owns Acl ?

Holding companies owned by the council and Higgs charity.
That doesn't change the fact that it is not ACL being sued. It's the council being accused of unlawful state aid.

Ian1779 · Jul 22, 2014

No future with SISU said:
and then told the FL not to release the funds to ACL. Release the £590,000 and drop the JR appeal, a deal could then be done for a return to the RICOH. Grendel what chance do you think SISU have on winning an appeal?

You have no idea what you are talking about - that is complete guesswork.

SISU need to drop the appeal - ASAP. Whether they come out publicly and do it or say privately in negotiations that for the two parties to decide.

ACL need to realise that they are going to get their money... it's now down to the FL to say when and how much. They should be grateful the FL put an arrangement in place to give them some money in the first place after the rejected the CVA. Stop using the money as an excuse not to talk.

Grendel · Jul 22, 2014

sky blue john said:
Obviously I want a deal done. But I won't be blaming Acl if they decide that they won't negotiate until Sisu stop trying to sue them.

So you weren't blaming sisu for not talking when half of ACL took legal action against them - are you sure?

wes_cov · Jul 22, 2014

Sisu can't/won't drop the appeal while it is still with the judge it would be silly for them to do so even after the battering they took. ACL could accept the money is in an Escrow but the fact this is still under SISU's control makes it unlikely that ACL will accept this as Ready for payment. SOOOOo it's still just a waiting game for these obstacles to be removed in my opinion.

statement and counter lack of statement isn't going to change this. just further muddying the water with PR BS.

If however SISU are refused leave to appeal yet then take the case further that will cause more friction between the parties

No future with SISU · Jul 22, 2014

Godiva said:
Holding companies owned by the council and Higgs charity.
That doesn't change the fact that it is not ACL being sued. It's the council being accused of unlawful state aid.

You need to look at the bigger picture, the council lose the JR ACL will have to pay back the £14m. That is why ACL want SISU to drop the appeal. Would you deal with someone trying to bankrupt you?

No future with SISU · Jul 22, 2014

Grendel said:
So you weren't blaming sisu for not talking when half of ACL took legal action against them - are you sure?

Half of ACL did not take legal action against SISU

Grendel · Jul 22, 2014

No future with SISU said:
Half of ACL did not take legal action against SISU

Sisu are not taking any action against ACL

No future with SISU · Jul 22, 2014

Ian1779 said:
You have no idea what you are talking about - that is complete guesswork.

SISU need to drop the appeal - ASAP. Whether they come out publicly and do it or say privately in negotiations that for the two parties to decide.

ACL need to realise that they are going to get their money... it's now down to the FL to say when and how much. They should be grateful the FL put an arrangement in place to give them some money in the first place after the rejected the CVA. Stop using the money as an excuse not to talk.

SISU control when the money is paid to ACL, that is not guesswork. If the league was in control of the account the money would have been paid.

fernandopartridge · Jul 22, 2014

sky blue john said:
Lmfao !!!
You really haven't a clue what's going on !!

What a div

fernandopartridge · Jul 22, 2014

No future with SISU said:
You need to look at the bigger picture, the council lose the JR ACL will have to pay back the £14m. That is why ACL want SISU to drop the appeal. Would you deal with someone trying to bankrupt you?

The only person bankrupting them will be the council in the end. It's irrelevant surely as it is a black and white case according to the legal experts.

No future with SISU · Jul 22, 2014

Grendel said:
Sisu are not taking any action against ACL

SISU are taken action against ACL loan providers, in an effort to bankrupt ACL. Simple even for you grendel.

Grendel · Jul 22, 2014

No future with SISU said:
SISU are taken action against ACL loan providers, in an effort to bankrupt ACL. Simple even for you grendel.

So you are admitting ACL are a basket case that without a subsidised loan which they would never have obtained in a commercial lenders market would go bust?

No future with SISU · Jul 22, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
The only person bankrupting them will be the council in the end. It's irrelevant surely as it is a black and white case according to the legal experts.

You are right about the black and white case, which is why SISU should drop the appeal as it is a waste of time, which we do not have a lot of time left.

Ian1779 · Jul 22, 2014

No future with SISU said:
SISU control when the money is paid to ACL, that is not guesswork. If the league was in control of the account the money would have been paid.

Like SISU controlled the previous ESCROW? If that was the case then surely SISU would never have authorised for ACL to draw down from it during the rent strike. The FL control the ESCROW - no one else.

The league haven't issued payment because there is challenge to how much should now be paid. Is it 590K is it 290K? The waters have been muddied by ACL pursuing the guarantors for money.

olderskyblue · Jul 22, 2014

Rob S said:
A few things:

Meeting with smaller groups of fans is something I've always advocated because it's harder for JS/TF/ML to get off the hook and people get to focus on getting deeper answers to particular questions they have.

Still havent seen any feedback from your 6 hour meeting with Joy yet Rob..... Be nice to see what questions were asked and answers given.

Rob S said:
The legals: One of the popular theories pre-JR was that Sisu should offer to drop the JR as part of a deal to return. Personally I see any legal dropping as a point of negotiation rather than a barrier to it but then I'm a big believer in just sitting down and thrashing things out. But enough of my completely ridiculous ideas.

So when ACL issued their statement with the conditions for returning, you agree Joy/Tim should have met with them to start negotiating?

Rob S said:
That the talk pre-JR was 'it's really straightforward to go back & rent short-term' has now morphed into 'it's really straightforward to pay what ACL demand, drop all legal action then go back & rent short-term'. Is it me or did it just get more complicated for some people?

More complicated? Not for me. The JR was always a sticking point for talks, as was the £590K, and still is. I think anyone who thinks it's now MORE complicated must've been on a Himalayan retreat for 2 years

Rob S said:
ACL are saying more than I ever remember them saying and making the comments. (Again, no particular judgment, just that things seem to be a bit different.)

ACL have issued 1 press release.... ?? Not sure how you got to this conclusion.

No future with SISU · Jul 22, 2014

Grendel said:
So you are admitting ACL are a basket case that without a subsidised loan which they would never have obtained in a commercial lenders market would go bust?

If you had a loan and the providers called it in, you would be in trouble. Will that make you a basket case?

spider_ricoh · Jul 22, 2014

If ACL are serious about the negotiation, they should make warm words about the good news of SISU being ready to negotiate, but insist legal action is dropped before talks begin.

"SISU must choose between talks and legal action" should be the line. Nobody will that is unreasonable.

No future with SISU · Jul 22, 2014

Ian1779 said:
Like SISU controlled the previous ESCROW? If that was the case then surely SISU would never have authorised for ACL to draw down from it during the rent strike. The FL control the ESCROW - no one else.

The league haven't issued payment because there is challenge to how much should now be paid. Is it 590K is it 290K? The waters have been muddied by ACL pursuing the guarantors for money.

SISU have stopped the league from paying any money from the account. Who did you say controls the account.

Nick · Jul 22, 2014

olderskyblue said:
Still havent seen any feedback from your 6 hour meeting with Joy yet Rob..... Be nice to see what questions were asked and answers given.

So when ACL issued their statement with the conditions for returning, you agree Joy/Tim should have met with them to start negotiating?

More complicated? Not for me. The JR was always a sticking point for talks, as was the £590K, and still is. I think anyone who thinks it's now MORE complicated must've been on a Himalayan retreat for 2 years

ACL have issued 1 press release.... ?? Not sure how you got to this conclusion.

You do realise a lot of anti SISU people have met with Joy too?

Ian1779 · Jul 22, 2014

No future with SISU said:
SISU have stopped the league from paying any money from the account. Who did you say controls the account.

How do you come to that conclusion exactly?

torchomatic · Jul 22, 2014

“At the current time, the two parties are interpreting elements of that agreement differently which has led to a further dispute between them over the amount owed.
“The Football League is seeking to resolve this matter so that all parties can concentrate on the more pressing issue of getting the club back to the Coventry area within the prescribed timeframe.
“Therefore, it will be considered by the league’s board at its next meeting on August 7 and in the intervening period the club has placed the full sum of £590,000 into an escrow account pending the outcome of the board’s deliberations.”

No future with SISU said:
SISU have stopped the league from paying any money from the account. Who did you say controls the account.

sky blue john · Jul 22, 2014

Grendel said:
So you are admitting ACL are a basket case that without a subsidised loan which they would never have obtained in a commercial lenders market would go bust?

Lol !!
How can that be true in court at the JR, evidence was shown that the previous loan company were prepared to refinance the loan for Acl !!!
You really do just make it up as you go along !

Cheshire Sky Blue · Jul 22, 2014

Nick said:
There are many reasons to bitch, why make stuff up?

What stuff was 'made up'?

Grendel · Jul 22, 2014

sky blue john said:
Lol !!
How can that be true in court at the JR, evidence was shown that the previous loan company were prepared to refinance the loan for Acl !!!
You really do just make it up as you go along !

I think you'll find this is the view of No Future Without A Brain Cell - not mine.

spider_ricoh · Jul 22, 2014

Grendel said:
So you are admitting ACL are a basket case that without a subsidised loan which they would never have obtained in a commercial lenders market would go bust?

Equally, the club were a basket case when the council had to act as lender of last resort and step in to save the Ricoh project. They would never have got funding for this from commercial lenders (they tried) on a paltry return of £1m per year - state aid by any other name. Funny how they club don't moan about that - it's called "having your cake and eating it" - not on.

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