Millwall (2 Viewers)

play_in_skyblue_stripes · Sep 17, 2021

Solo said:
Again, I have to take issue with some of these statements (bolded).

According to who though? Because whilst I agree that there are racist Millwall fans, just as there are racist Coventry City (or simply insert any club here) fans, I would argue that it is not something that runs through the club or fanbase, which 'long-standing problem with your club and Racism, the Far Right' implies it is.

Please try to hear me out on this, as I have signed up in good faith using my Google account. So, I am not trying to hide behind a persona or agenda.

Firstly, you will have noticed that I did not bold the 'violence' part of your assessment. That is because I cannot deny that Millwall FC has a long-standing association with football violence. In fact, it goes right back to the late 1890s and the arrival of a local rival on the scene, Thames Ironworks (West Ham United). Both clubs drew their support from London's tough docklands communities and sometimes tempers frayed. Indeed, The East Ham Echo reported in the 1906/07 season that "From the very first kick it was seen that there was likely to be some trouble. All attempts at football were ignored." Going on to explain how the violence spread to the crowd.

Millwall has also drawn much of its support from the London Docklands - Millwall, Stepney, Wapping, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe and Deptford. As well as other areas that the Old Kent Road (made famous by monopoly, as well as its criminals, bank robbers and boxers) snakes through and past, such as New Cross, Camberwell, Peckham, Walworth and Elephant & Castle. And therefore, is has always had a rough and ready support. This culture has also attracted some of the more interesting characters living in the above areas over the years. There is a reason that Charlton Athletic, playing a mere 4 miles down the road from The Den, are known as a nice, family club, even a little bit twee - and it is because people from SE London knew that is you enjoyed a rough crowd and even a bit of aggro Cold Blow Lane was the place to head. But if you preferred a more sedate Saturday afternoon, relaxing on a vast terrace and simply enjoying the football, then The Valley was more for you.

It is now very difficult for the club to escape its reputation and it has become a bit of a self-fulling prophecy. Wherever Millwall go, every local nutter wanting bragging rights in his local pub will come out to have a pop at the 'famous' Millwall. A visit from Millwall has the ability to turn even the sleepiest of clubs and towns into mini Istanbuls. I have seen pubs in places like Norwich, Watford, Reading, Swindon and Southend empty with pumped up local heroes frothing at the mouth to slap a few Millwall fans around (funny enough, something joked about in this or the Millwall match day thread - cannot remember which). Now, my best mate is a Forest fan and I have attended Forest away games with him in London and the south before, if I have had a free weekend and despite being a much bigger club than Millwall, with a much larger away support, I have yet to experience the same welcome for them. I imagine little things do happen, but I have never been to Watford or Reading and seen their fans actively seeking out to attack travelling Forest fans. But I have with Millwall. Which has created the 'No One Likes Us, We Don't Care' siege mentality amongst our support. When Millwall travel we tend to only take a support made of mostly men, aged 18-50, because of all I have outlined above. And as the club has had very limited footballing success (just 2 seasons of topflight football), the support hasn't been diluted by 'new' football types, i.e., middle-class families etc. It is the sons and grandsons of the stevedores and factory workers of yore, told to 'hit them back' if anyone brings them trouble from the age of 4. Indeed, if you look at our support today, you'll see it made up of the people that keep London going, the scaffolders, roofers, brickies, binmen, rail workers etc. So, this feeds into that culture and so it goes on and on.

The reason I am giving all this context is because I believe this association with violence has gone a long way to stain the club's reputation in other dark areas, such as racism. Millwall FC has always been the closest club to England's national media. After all, it is London's most inn-city club and just over the river from The City. I think it has been very easy over the years for the media to create the narrative that Millwall = hooligans; hooligans = racists. Now, whilst this argument has some merit for clubs like Chelsea and Leeds United, it does not really stand up to scrutiny at Millwall. This is because some of Millwall's most infamous hooligans have been of Black or Asian ethnicity. Unlike at clubs like Chelsea and Leeds, these fans from ethnic minorities were more than just embraced, they were unquestionably part of the Millwall 'family', people you could rely on a dark night in Middlesbrough or as your kid's Godfather. Don't believe me? Look up Tiny at Millwall, or Tamer Hassan or Roland Manookian, as those are just the famous faces of Millwall's diverse support. Away from the hooligans, you will also see that Millwall's own database says that Millwall has one of the highest ratios of season ticket holders and members of ethnic minority backgrounds outside the big PL clubs. Further investigation will also show you that Millwall hooligans fought with National Front recruiters and moved them out of the area, never to return. So, I am particularly horrified that you have linked us to the Far Right. I put the article that documents this at the end of this post.

You ask how seriously Millwall take the issue of violence and race. Well, they took it seriously enough to pioneer the idea of football in the community, way back in the 1980s. Before it was fashionable virtue signalling to allow the likes of Manchester City and their owners of dubious acquired wealth and power to seem like they really do care. This was when Millwall were a Third Division club struggling on crowds of 3-5,000. It must have some effect on us plebs, because despite the fact that some idiots cannot help grabbing all the headlines* Millwall fans have voted a Black player of the Season on nine separate occasions, including a practicing Muslim, starting all the way back with Phil Walker in 1978. The Millwall in the Community scheme is still going strong and is an awarding winning community service that does so much good in the local area and promotes ideas like aspiration and equality, whilst fighting knife crime and gang culture. The club puts a lot of resources into this, and I would bet more in ratio terms than many other clubs.

*Some highlighted the racism at our games v Spurs and Everton. Both incidents were vile and pathetic examples of racial slurs, sung by a minority, in the case of the Everton game the Met estimated c30-50 in a crowd of 16,000 Millwall fans. The Spurs chant was about how many of the hawkers of illegal DVDS in London are of Asian ethnicity with the chant of 'DVD, DVD' aimed at Son, whilst the Everton chant was frankly pathetic 'I'd rather be...'. I cannot deny that those incidents happened, but I would argue that they do not confirm that Millwall FC are a racist institution and that our fanbase is inherently racist. More that they represented the kind of problem the club has with attracting members of society that think racial profiling is simply 'banter'. But Millwall are certainly not alone in that. Nor is football.

As for other things that the club has done to show that they take these issues seriously. Well, they built a million-pound walkway for away fans to be able to attend games at The Den safely. I am not sure if Wolverhampton Wanderers would spend similar on a way for away fans to avoid getting ambushed in the subway near Molineux, as just one example. Millwall also introduced a membership scheme in 2002. Only Millwall members can buy tickets for away games in advance. Costing the club if not money, but vocal support on the road. It will also make home games members only if there is even a hint of intelligence re potential trouble. This does cost the club money and bad will from fans. They will also restrict capacity - we could have sold 4,500 more tickets for games with West Ham, Everton etc. in the past. That includes keeping home areas free, to avoid flash points.

A long and detailed post obviously that shows you care clearly.

I am going to Millwall tomorrow and this will be my first League game this season and travelling down from Manchester to go.

I do remember a stabbing in Coventry centre the Friday night before Fa cup game in 1975 at Highfield road and have seen some unsavoury characters in my travels that were Millwall supporters and had a friend tell me what it was like when Millwall visited Crystal Palace. Much of this is really old stuff and maybe out of date. I really hope it is.

I am genuinely looking forward to the visit to London tomorrow and a new ground. I am open minded to the occasion although this might sound contradictory but I certainly wont be wearing my Coventry UK City of Culture 2021 shirt!

theferret · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
“I don’t like women being punched in the face by a big fuck off bloke, but if I see it happening in front of me I’ll leave it and let it happen” safe in the knowledge that I know I don’t like it.

Have you been hacked? That's shocking by your standards, an insane leap of imagination that qualifies top of its group for the World Cup of shit analogies.

*still think you're the best poster on here though.

hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

theferret said:
Have you been hacked? That's shocking by your standards, an insane leap of imagination that qualifies top of its group for the World Cup of shit analogies.

*still think you're the best poster on here though.

It’s not specially directed at you to be fair, but being anti racist is a thing. And should be a thing. And my point stands. Explain to me in details how it doesn’t correlate.

TomRad85 · Sep 17, 2021

theferret said:
*still think you're the best poster on here though.

Just ask for a signed photo, he might say yes.

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Deleted member 2477 · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
You’d love it on there as well.

Im sure i would but then again Im not the one whos racist or makes derogatory remarks about disabled people

hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

marcusp said:
Im sure i would but then again Im not the one whos racist or makes derogatory remarks about disabled people

And there we go. I’m not subscribing to your clear racist views and backing down due to my one error calling someone a spastic. You can fuck off. Biggest regret on here is saying that. Cunts like you are all over it.

And explain to me how I’m racist. In detail. I’d love to hear it.

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 17, 2021

marcusp said:
Im not the one whos racist

OK

Deleted member 2477 · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
And there we go. I’m not subscribing to your clear racist views and backing down due to my one error calling someone a spastic. You can fuck off. Biggest regret on here is saying that. Cunts like you are all over it.

And explain to me how I’m racist. In detail. I’d love to hear it.

explain to my why you stereo type all millwall fans as racist and intimating I am to by saying I would love their forum.
you clearly have your own prejudice views and label orhers but then play the poor me card so lets not pretend otherwise

theferret · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
It’s not specially directed at you to be fair, but being anti racist is a thing. And should be a thing. And my point stands.

Fair enough. I was being a bit mischievous tbf, but there was a serious point in there somewhere, specifically that there was far more racial harmony in the 90s and 00s (I'm convinced of that, because there was, wasn't there?) when people tried not to see colour, to not view things through the prism of race, to not flaunt anti-racist credentials, when they didn't apologise for their privelage or heritage - basically a time when people still thought MLK was right. People were getting used to not seeing race, we were winning, but now for some it's all they see, or certainly the first thing.

I think we have regressed that's all, but I know you have a different view of it so fair enough. I'm bailing anyway, don't want to get embroiled in this sort of thing with a early start for Millwall in the morning. I should've left it!

hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

marcusp said:
explain to my why you stereo type all millwall fans as racist and intimating I am to by saying I would love their forum.
you clearly have your own prejudice views and label orhers but then play the poor me card so lets not pretend otherwise

1. I don’t stereotype (one word) all millwall fans as racist. My dad best mate it’s a millwall fan and I’ve been in their home end twice as kid.

2. They love talk about slagging off taking the knee. You’d love it

3. “Card”

4. You argue like a 6 year old

clint van damme · Sep 17, 2021

theferret said:
Always found the term 'anti racist' to be a bit odd. It seems that simply not being racist, most people's default position, is no longer good enough, you have to declare yourself 'anti'.

We seem to have peaked in the 90s when nobody gave a shit what colour you were and being colourblind was all the rage.

Now, demand for racism often outstrips supply so people go searching for it and it's all a bit mental

Besides, if being 'anti racist' puts you on the same side as those knuckle-dragging antifa mouth-breathers, I reject anti-racism and I'll just stick to not being a racist instead.

Oh dear.

hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

theferret said:
Fair enough. I was being a bit mischievous tbf, but there was a serious point in there somewhere, specifically that there was far more racial harmony in the 90s and 00s (I'm convinced of that, because there was, wasn't there?) when people tried not to see colour, to not view things through the prism of race, to not flaunt anti-racist credentials, when they didn't apologise for their privelage or heritage - basically a time when people still thought MLK was right. People were getting used to not seeing race, we were winning, but now for some it's all they see, or certainly the first thing.

I think we have regressed that's all, but I know you have a different view of it so fair enough. I'm bailing anyway, don't want to get embroiled in this sort of thing with a early start for Millwall in the morning. I should've left it!

Nah, I was being a bit mischievous as well to be fair. It has regressed. But it’s the internet.
Back in the 90’s I’m at home playing Mario Kart in my pants not arguing with ballbags on the Internet (not you)

My original point still stands though. Do you genuinely not see how it’s the same?

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 17, 2021

What are we allowed to call an anti-racist gesture then? What is deemed acceptable language for people to accept their right to do so, rather than try and pick faults in five or ten seconds of a gesture made by our footballers to state their opposition to racism?

Fucking hell.

TomRad85 · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
Nah, I was being a bit mischievous as well to be fair. It has regressed. But it’s the internet.
Back in the 90’s I’m at home playing Mario Kart in my pants not arguing with ballbags on the Internet (not you)

Yoshi?

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hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

TomRad85 said:
Yoshi?

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Toad

TomRad85 · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
Biggest regret on here is saying that. Cunts like you are all over it.

We all have regrets tbf. I regret not thinking Jamie Allen was up to it, others may regret showing support to a terrorist organisation, as an example. Pay it no more thought.

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Wyken Sky Blue · Sep 17, 2021

HerneBayGaz said:
When you said you lived nearby. Would that be Scabby Wood?

Corrected, fucking shithole of a place

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hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

Anyway. As @shmmeee said earlier. I can’t resist taking the bait. I’m out.

TomRad85 · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
Toad

I hate Toad (not in a racist way.)

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hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

TomRad85 said:
We all have regrets tbf. I regret not thinking Jamie Allen was up to it, others may regret showing support to a terrorist organisation, as an example. Pay it no more thought.

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I’d love to pay no more thought to it. But as soon as I call out racists on here it’s back to that. Done myself no favours. They fucking love it. I won’t stop though.

JAM See · Sep 17, 2021

theferret said:
Always found the term 'anti racist' to be a bit odd. It seems that simply not being racist, most people's default position, is no longer good enough, you have to declare yourself 'anti'.
We seem to have peaked in the 90s when nobody gave a shit what colour you were and being colourblind was all the rage.

Now, demand for racism often outstrips supply so people go searching for it and it's all a bit mental
Besides, if being 'anti racist' puts you on the same side as those knuckle-dragging antifa mouth-breathers, I reject anti-racism and I'll just stick to not being a racist instead.

I'll just stick to not being a paedophile.

hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

JAM See said:
I'll just stick to not being a paedophile.

Better than my example

usskyblue · Sep 17, 2021

Quick word from our sponsor:

‘That qualifies top of its group for the World Cup of shit analogies.*still think you're the best poster on here though.’

Special Brew

TomRad85 · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
I’d love to pay no more thought to it. But as soon as I call out racists on here it’s back to that. Done myself no favours. They fucking love it. I won’t stop though.

People love to flog a dead horse on here. I actually think we could do with an influx of new members to get some fresh arguments, sorry conversations, started.
If that's the worst thing you've ever said on here or in the real world, you're doing well.

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hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

usskyblue said:
Quick word from our sponsor:

‘That qualifies top of its group for the World Cup of shit analogies.*still think you're the best poster on here though.’

Special Brew

View attachment 21835

hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

TomRad85 said:
People love to flog a dead horse on here. I actually think we could do with an influx of new members to get some fresh arguments, sorry conversations, started.
If that's the worst thing you've ever said on here or in the real world, you're doing well.

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I called someone a big old smelly sausage in Spongate once

SlowerThanPlatt · Sep 17, 2021

TomRad85 said:
People love to flog a dead horse on here. I actually think we could do with an influx of new members to get some fresh arguments, sorry conversations, started.
If that's the worst thing you've ever said on here or in the real world, you're doing well.

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We did have @Dog

David O'Day · Sep 17, 2021

marcusp said:
explain to my why you stereo type all millwall fans as racist and intimating I am to by saying I would love their forum.
you clearly have your own prejudice views and label orhers but then play the poor me card so lets not pretend otherwise

it has been clearly stated that no one thinks all Millwall fans are racist.

TomRad85 · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
I called someone a big old smelly sausage in Spongate once

Bit triggering for people who don't spend enough time washing their sausage.

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theferret · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
Nah, I was being a bit mischievous as well to be fair. It has regressed. But it’s the internet.
Back in the 90’s I’m at home playing Mario Kart in my pants not arguing with ballbags on the Internet (not you)

My original point still stands though. Do you genuinely not see how it’s the same?

What was the original point again, the woman beating analogy? Of course they're not the same. I'm afraid that post hasn't got better with time.

hill83 · Sep 17, 2021

usskyblue said:
As a vegan I find this fucking sickening

£1.99 for a carling though

JAM See · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
I called someone a big old smelly sausage in Spongate once

I was there. Literally everyone took it personally.

Deleted member 5849 · Sep 17, 2021

TomRad85 said:
People love to flog a dead horse on here. I actually think we could do with an influx of new members to get some fresh arguments, sorry conversations, started.
If that's the worst thing you've ever said on here or in the real world, you're doing well.

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There's a basic rule of thumb that we're not perfect, all fuck up.

Defending the indefensible is when it gets low, mind you.

Houchens Head · Sep 17, 2021

hill83 said:
“I don’t like women being punched in the face by a big fuck off bloke, but if I see it happening in front of me I’ll leave it and let it happen” safe in the knowledge that I know I don’t like it.

I remember back in the early 70's, I was walking through Smithford Way by the old Davies sports shop (for those of you who remember it), and I saw a bloke arguing with (I assume) his missus. Next thing I knew, he threw a punch at her knocking her over. My missus at the time grabbed my arm and said "Don't get involved!". But that just isn't me. I walked over to this "big, hard c**t", and without saying a word, knocked him spark out! All the other shoppers in the precinct area just stood and stared. I just walked away saying something like, "When he comes to, tell him not to hit women!" That felt great! Can't stand cunts who hit women!

theferret · Sep 17, 2021

JAM See said:
I'll just stick to not being a paedophile.

That's a smart move.

What would be worrying is if people suddenly felt the need to declare that they're 'anti-paedophile' in their twitter bio. I should hope so, like that even needs to be said or clarified.

People missing my point, which was probably poorly made, my bad. I do find this new phenomenon of people declaring they're anti-racist odd, because well, of course you are, aren't you? That's the benefit of doubt I give to anyone I ever encounter, because the alternative is that you're pro-racist and I wouldn't recommend that.

Anyway it was a bit tongue in cheek, and I wish I'd said nothing.

What I would say is that I don't have any time for those antagonists who have turned anti-racism into a political movement, like those in a video I saw this week who were harrasing a black politician with cries of Uncle Tom and house ***** because he happened to belong to the wrong party.

As for the knee, if it's a sincere gesture made in opposition to racism, and I'm sure it is, then what's the issue, have never argued otherwise

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