Liquidating CCFC Limited (1 Viewer)

BrisbaneBronco · Jun 23, 2013

I think that SISU, Optium etc will look to liquidate CCFC Limited once we are out of admin.
The reason for doing this will be to get rid of the Lease agreement for the Ricoh.
However, their plans may be thwarted.
The Football League have to issue the Golden Share once Limited is out of admin. They have already said that the share was in Limited at the time of admin. My guess, is that the share will be issued to Limited, so any plans to liquidate Limited will mean that the club is liquidated. I do not think GS can be issued to Optium.
Anyone got any ideas on this?

Godiva · Jun 23, 2013

As they have been in close contact with the FL I think they have agreed to transfer the GS to Holdings, thereby removing any future confusion over which entity is the football club.
All non secured creditors (ACL) will be paid in full which should pave the way for Owners Voluntary Liquidation as exit of administration.
The only issue would be if breaking the lease will prompt some sort of compensation to ACL for the remaining 40+ years. I think someone mentioned a figure around £3m.

So maybe there's a compromise open:
- Limited is liquidated and the lease broken
- ACL is compensated in a new three year lease
- The club play at the Ricoh for three years while building a new stadium

speedie87 · Jun 23, 2013

Acl would be mad to agree a 3 year deal so sisu can build a new stadium. Like turkeys voting for Xmas.

Godiva · Jun 23, 2013

speedie87 said:
Acl would be mad to agree a 3 year deal so sisu can build a new stadium. Like turkeys voting for Xmas.

They would be mad not to - the new stadium will be build in any case.
The only real alternative is to agree a deal that makes all of ACL part of the club, but would ccc and Higgs agree to a price that in the long run make that as good an investment for sisu as building a new stadium?
I don't think so.

Leamington Pete · Jun 23, 2013

speedie87 said:
Acl would be mad to agree a 3 year deal so sisu can build a new stadium. Like turkeys voting for Xmas.

Yes but one turkey does not a Christmas make.

BrisbaneBronco · Jun 23, 2013

Godiva said:
As they have been in close contact with the FL I think they have agreed to transfer the GS to Holdings, thereby removing any future confusion over which entity is the football club.
All non secured creditors (ACL) will be paid in full which should pave the way for Owners Voluntary Liquidation as exit of administration.
The only issue would be if breaking the lease will prompt some sort of compensation to ACL for the remaining 40+ years. I think someone mentioned a figure around £3m.

So maybe there's a compromise open:
- Limited is liquidated and the lease broken
- ACL is compensated in a new three year lease
- The club play at the Ricoh for three years while building a new stadium

That would appear to be the most logical solution.

Astute · Jun 23, 2013

Godiva said:
They would be mad not to - the new stadium will be build in any case.
The only real alternative is to agree a deal that makes all of ACL part of the club, but would ccc and Higgs agree to a price that in the long run make that as good an investment for sisu as building a new stadium?
I don't think so.

The new stadium will be built?

SISU want their money back. They have put up to 30m into our club. They would want at least this back to sell our club. If they built a new stadium they would spend at least another 30m. To sell us they would want at least 60m. What Div 3 club is worth 60m? They would be very lucky to get that if we were in the Championship. They might if we were looking good at getting promotion to the Prem. An agreement of 500k PA on the Ricoh would be 60 years rent against a new stadium which wouldn't hold enough if we got to the Prem to maximize ticket sales. This would easily cover the rent.

If SISU are planning to keep us for a long time in the future then a new stadium might be built. If they are planning to get rid of us then it would be throwing good money after bad.......that is if you could say any SISU money is good

Godiva · Jun 23, 2013

Astute said:
The new stadium will be built?

SISU want their money back. They have put up to 30m into our club. They would want at least this back to sell our club. If they built a new stadium they would spend at least another 30m. To sell us they would want at least 60m. What Div 3 club is worth 60m? They would be very lucky to get that if we were in the Championship. They might if we were looking good at getting promotion to the Prem. An agreement of 500k PA on the Ricoh would be 60 years rent against a new stadium which wouldn't hold enough if we got to the Prem to maximize ticket sales. This would easily cover the rent.

If SISU are planning to keep us for a long time in the future then a new stadium might be built. If they are planning to get rid of us then it would be throwing good money after bad.......that is if you could say any SISU money is good

No, then don't have to spend another £30m.

They buy a suitable ground (larger than needed for a stadium alone). Now they have an asset. Then they get planning permission to build a stadium - probably a 20k seater. Then they start selling off pieces of the surrounding land to other parties. That generate a profit. Other parties will build hotel, shops, fastfood outlets etc. That attract more people, generate more businesses and activities. That increases the land value - thereby increase the asset value of the land still owned by a company in the SB&L group.

The stadium is finansed by the land sale and a mortgage.

All activities inside the stadium will be run by a 'ACL' equivalent owned by a company in the SBS&L group. That way all income streams will benefit the club towards profitability and the FFP.
It would make no sense if a company outside the SBS&L group owned and operated the stadium as that would only duplicate the disaster of Ricoh/ACL. To be able to later sell the club and regain their investment the club and stadium must be in the same company group.

ccfcway · Jun 23, 2013

any idea how much Nene park would cost them to buy ?

Wouldnt surprise me at all !

mattylad · Jun 23, 2013

ccfcway said:
any idea how much Nene park would cost them to buy ?

Wouldnt surprise me at all !

Exactly! can't believe people think they are going to build a local stadium....

duffer · Jun 23, 2013

Godiva said:
They would be mad not to - the new stadium will be build in any case.
The only real alternative is to agree a deal that makes all of ACL part of the club, but would ccc and Higgs agree to a price that in the long run make that as good an investment for sisu as building a new stadium?
I don't think so.

I think there's two possible flaws to your argument.

The first is that I'm not sure that CCFC Limited will be able to go for voluntary liquidation. With the lease still active, ACL remain a creditor because of the ongoing lease. I don't think it's as easy as saying we quit and disclaim the lease, ACL will have a claim against expected future income. How much is tricky - here's a precedent if you're bored.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199899/ldjudgmt/jd990204/moran01.htm

I think the other flaw is in SISU's business model:

A business that has already run up debts of between 30-70m is now proposing to run up further debts whilst it groundshares, and then another 20-30m to plan and build a new stadium. Even conservatively, that's got to mean around £40/50m of debt before anyone sets foot in the new, smaller ground.

And then this business, which hasn't even turned a profit in how long, ten, twenty years, maybe longer, will somehow earn enough income from a smaller stadium in a worse location in a lower division to pay back all this debt? It is utterly impossible.

And that's without even taking into account all of the fans that the owners have p*ssed off.

It's just not plausible. Which is perhaps why ACL are sitting tight and saying nothing for now.

BrisbaneBronco · Jun 23, 2013

ccfcway said:
any idea how much Nene park would cost them to buy ?

Wouldnt surprise me at all !

Well here's a couple of thoughts.
They buy Nene Park for a knockdown price(sound familiar) and we are based there for 3 years whilst a stadium closer to home is built.
They then sell Nene Park for a profit to a developer.

Or if we are unable to build close to home, then they develop Nene Park

duffer · Jun 23, 2013

BrisbaneBronco said:
Well here's a couple of thoughts.
They buy Nene Park for a knockdown price(sound familiar) and we are based there for 3 years whilst a stadium closer to home is built.
They then sell Nene Park for a profit to a developer.

Or if we are unable to build close to home, then they develop Nene Park

I'm guessing there's a reason that Nene Park hasn't already been bought by a developer, so I'm not sure how much profit you'd make. First you'd have to make the stadium fit for purpose, and then any developer would have to knock it down to build something else.

Unless you were planning to stay there, which wouldn't of course be within FL rules regarding teams playing within their local conurbation.

All things are possible, but this sounds a bit unlikely to me in truth.

sky blue john · Jun 23, 2013

Some of this bullshit on here is making me roll around the floor !!!!
Has anybody stopped to think that the big flaw in this is that the building industry is on its knees !!!!
There is loads of land about you can pick up cheap but getting anyone wanting to develop on it is another matter !!

BrisbaneBronco · Jun 23, 2013

duffer said:
I'm guessing there's a reason that Nene Park hasn't already been bought by a developer, so I'm not sure how much profit you'd make. First you'd have to make the stadium fit for purpose, and then any developer would have to knock it down to build something else.

Unless you were planning to stay there, which wouldn't of course be within FL rules regarding teams playing within their local conurbation.

All things are possible, but this sounds a bit unlikely to me in truth.

The stadium, is I guess already fit for purpose apart from preparing the pitch and turning on the power.
If rumours are to be believed, this is already happening for someone, and not Peterborough United.
Your point about local conurbation is valid, but how rigid the ruling is anyone's guess.
No idea how much Max Griggs paid for the site or what it is now worth, or whether anyone has tried to buy it.
I would certainly not rule out Nene Park for 3 years if a deal with ACL/CCC cannot be struck.

BrisbaneBronco · Jun 23, 2013

sky blue john said:
Some of this bullshit on here is making me roll around the floor !!!!
Has anybody stopped to think that the big flaw in this is that the building industry is on its knees !!!!
There is loads of land about you can pick up cheap but getting anyone wanting to develop on it is another matter !!

When the building industry is on its knee's then that's the time to develop assuming you have the funds to do so.

3 reasons

1. You buy the site cheap.
2. You get it built on time as builders crying out for work.
3. When the industry recovers you sell for a profit.

duffer · Jun 23, 2013

BrisbaneBronco said:
The stadium, is I guess already fit for purpose apart from preparing the pitch and turning on the power.
If rumours are to be believed, this is already happening for someone, and not Peterborough United.
Your point about local conurbation is valid, but how rigid the ruling is anyone's guess.
No idea how much Max Griggs paid for the site or what it is now worth, or whether anyone has tried to buy it.
I would certainly not rule out Nene Park for 3 years if a deal with ACL/CCC cannot be struck.

I wouldn't doubt it's possible that SISU might want to move out there for a few years.

But I think it's unlikely they'd either be able to sell it on after that for a huge profit, or be allowed to stay there and remain in the FL under current rules.

dongonzalos · Jun 23, 2013

speedie87 said:
Acl would be mad to agree a 3 year deal so sisu can build a new stadium. Like turkeys voting for Xmas.

I think ACL would be very smart to offer it.

SISU will never want to fork out 30 million on a new stadium.
Planning permission will not be granted. Even directly by the courts.
It would not be deemed appropriate as the city has a stadium bending over backwards to keep the club there.

dongonzalos · Jun 23, 2013

BrisbaneBronco said:
The stadium, is I guess already fit for purpose apart from preparing the pitch and turning on the power.
If rumours are to be believed, this is already happening for someone, and not Peterborough United.
Your point about local conurbation is valid, but how rigid the ruling is anyone's guess.
No idea how much Max Griggs paid for the site or what it is now worth, or whether anyone has tried to buy it.
I would certainly not rule out Nene Park for 3 years if a deal with ACL/CCC cannot be struck.

I agree SISU are arrogant enough to say to the FA this is the only place we can get an agreement on.
Then once they are in there argue they have a fan base after 4 years.
They have a deal to buy Nene Park they can't afford to build a stadium in Coventry they will battle the almighty strong FA/FL to get what they want.

duffer · Jun 23, 2013

Actually, I'm sure I remember somewhere where this has happened.

Someone bought a big brownfield site, relatively cheaply. Then they sold some of it to retail, and amazingly enough even managed to get a fair wedge of local government and other public funding to cover a chunk of the development.

Despite all of this, the public funding and all of the good will from the local council in terms of planning permission and infrastructure, there was still a need to finance some of the costs of building the stadium itself. I guess you just can't make £20-30m that easily from a bit of derelict land, otherwise everyone would be doing it.

I'm trying to think where this was. I know it was somewhere relatively local. Anyway, it didn't end well, as I recall.

Astute · Jun 23, 2013

Godiva said:
No, then don't have to spend another £30m.

They buy a suitable ground (larger than needed for a stadium alone). Now they have an asset. Then they get planning permission to build a stadium - probably a 20k seater. Then they start selling off pieces of the surrounding land to other parties. That generate a profit. Other parties will build hotel, shops, fastfood outlets etc. That attract more people, generate more businesses and activities. That increases the land value - thereby increase the asset value of the land still owned by a company in the SB&L group.

The stadium is finansed by the land sale and a mortgage.

All activities inside the stadium will be run by a 'ACL' equivalent owned by a company in the SBS&L group. That way all income streams will benefit the club towards profitability and the FFP.
It would make no sense if a company outside the SBS&L group owned and operated the stadium as that would only duplicate the disaster of Ricoh/ACL. To be able to later sell the club and regain their investment the club and stadium must be in the same company group.

All they have to do is find land large enough to be able to sell lots off where companies can get planning permission like Tescos did. This makes the land more valuable. They would need planning permission themselves. Then final plans drawn up.Building company found. Building work completed.

Very basics needed, but some think this can be done in 3 years. Could easily take longer just to find the land and get permission. How much of a development would they allow in Coventry?

It doesn't make sense to me.

dongonzalos · Jun 23, 2013

Astute said:
All they have to do is find land large enough to be able to sell lots off where companies can get planning permission like Tescos did. This makes the land more valuable. They would need planning permission themselves. Then final plans drawn up.Building company found. Building work completed.

Very basics needed, but some think this can be done in 3 years. Could easily take longer just to find the land and get permission. How much of a development would they allow in Coventry?

It doesn't make sense to me.

They will buy the land as part of the game.

They will not lose money on the land.

It is full proof and covered by the debenture which covers all future land purchases.

They won't build a stadium though

Astute · Jun 23, 2013

dongonzalos said:
They will buy the land as part of the game.

They will not lose money on the land.

It is full proof and covered by the debenture which covers all future land purchases.

They won't build a stadium though

How many brownfield sites are left that are big enough.....and for sale for a low price? How many of these will be deemed good enough with planned extra traffic?

They are wasting their time trying to get a greenfield site to build on. Why haven't they found any land yet? Are they even trying to find any land to build on?

RegTheDonk · Jun 23, 2013

OK, thanks all re. the different scenarios around moving and how that may or may not pan out. Can I ask how liquidating works in SISUs favour?

Assuming they get the GS moved to Holdings, so in essence it doesn't matter what happens to Ltd, I get that.

However, IF everything were to ultimately go t*ts up and CCFC was liquidated (as Fisher once threatened) - How does this benefit SISU? Surely they would lose everything they've apparently put in? I'd like to understand SISU/Fishers logic behind liquidating the club.

TIA

BrisbaneBronco · Jun 23, 2013

RegTheDonk said:
OK, thanks all re. the different scenarios around moving and how that may or may not pan out. Can I ask how liquidating works in SISUs favour?

Assuming they get the GS moved to Holdings, so in essence it doesn't matter what happens to Ltd, I get that.

However, IF everything were to ultimately go t*ts up and CCFC was liquidated (as Fisher once threatened) - How does this benefit SISU? Surely they would lose everything they've apparently put in? I'd like to understand SISU/Fishers logic behind liquidating the club.

TIA

I do not think for one minute that the whole club will be liquidated, it makes no sense.
Limited could be liquidated to get rid of the lease agreement for the Ricoh which still has about 40 yrs to run. ACL as a creditor, will according to SISU be paid in full what they are owed in rent. ACL could however pursue some sort of payment from Limited for what is owed on lease. To avoid this SISU could liquidate Limited. As Godiva posted, it is more likely that they could contemplate a deal with ACL for a 3 yr lease.
This would give ACL more time to find a tenant and SISU time to find another ground.
Have absolutely no idea how this will pan out:facepalm:

sky blue john · Jun 23, 2013

plenty of sisu supporters on here like to use the liquidation card in their argument to justify putting money it sisus pockets !!!

BrisbaneBronco · Jun 23, 2013

sky blue john said:
plenty of sisu supporters on here like to use the liquidation card in their argument to justify putting money it sisus pockets !!!

Not sure what you mean by this.
The only mention of the liquidation card has come from supporters who feel that "Not a penny more" could lead to liquidation. I doubt that that would happen. More likely, that SISU being starved of income may sell up rather they put more money in.

RegTheDonk · Jun 23, 2013

BrisbaneBronco said:
Not sure what you mean by this.
The only mention of the liquidation card has come from supporters who feel that "Not a penny more" could lead to liquidation. I doubt that that would happen. More likely, that SISU being starved of income may sell up rather they put more money in.

Cheers for this, and the other reply. Sounds like hollow threats from Fisher then re. liquidation, to try and scare the fans into siding with them. Unless Joy would want to flush megabucks and years of toil down the toil-et.

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