Les Reid Update (1 Viewer)

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2014

Godiva said:
I didn't mean to mess with your head. Sorry about that.
The £2.77m is the price Wasp is expected to pay Higgs for their shares in ACL.

So it is nothing to do with the liquidation prices. It is desperate once the liquidation process is over?

I also thought ACL (includes Higgs) as the main creditor so any bid via liquidation has to benefit the main creditor. Does that not mean SISU simply need to bid more than 2.77 million. Then legal fight this veto issue.

If the veto is with the council and SISU bid say 5 million
Allowing an opportunity for the charity to get more money.

Surely the council would be in a quandary about applying the Veto?

However can SISU come up with 5 million up front?

It would SISU need to bid 6 million
3 million to the council
3 million to the charity

How could the council veto that?

Half if ACL for 6 million is still better than the new stadium rubbish.

ACL's value automatically increases after the deal due to wasps/CCFC long term partnership.

Get promotion sell your share and the club as a profitable business for a profit.

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2014

Moff said:
It may not be directly related, but before the deal was struck I believe Simon Gilbert posted a piece in the Telegraph that suggested they hadn't yet secured all funds, but this was prior to the deal being signed, and the probability is it that it was sorted out prior to the deal.

Things could have changed since then, or not, it depends on what investment you are relying on, and from whom it is secured? That's hedge funds for you

They have also announced their first fixture

duffer · Oct 17, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
It's not too late, otherwise Higgs wouldn't have invited the offer. I don't know what you mean in respect of the CVA stopping anything.

I don't think Higgs 'invited' the offer, fwiw. Because CCFC Ltd were still in existence, I think they were contractually obliged to allow that entity to make an offer for the share. The tricky thing is, are they contractually obliged to accept it - or can they just hand it over to their preferred bidders, Wasps? This might be where my season ticket at the High Court comes in useful.

Don't get me wrong, I can see why Higgs want nothing more to do with SISU - I wouldn't either. However, selling to Wasps is an even worse way out of this mess, imho, morally and from the point of CCFC and CRFC.

Having decided to take this route, I don't really care now if Higgs or the Council, or Wasps, find themselves in court again. More fool them for rushing through a deal without thinking all of the possiblities through. None of these parties (including SISU) can have any claim to the moral high ground now. If one or all of them get burned, I couldn't give a monkey's personally.

tisza · Oct 17, 2014

so sisu get 50% of ACL then win jr and have to pay back 14 million. can't drop the jr when they are doing it on behalf of the taxpayers. just thought I'd add another piece to the plot. don't ever see the off-field shenigans ever ending.

Nick · Oct 17, 2014

tisza said:
so sisu get 50% of ACL then win jr and have to pay back 14 million. can't drop the jr when they are doing it on behalf of the taxpayers. just thought I'd add another piece to the plot. don't ever see the off-field shenigans ever ending.

Good point, so if SISU get half of ACL they would have to pay the loan back wouldn't they? How would that work

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2014

Nick said:
Good point, so if SISU get half of ACL they would have to pay the loan back wouldn't they? How would that work

Funny

Wish I understood this tripe

I just hope it forces SISU to pay even more to the charity than wasps are or SISU offered.

In exchange for this they get half of ACL and they form a great relationship with wasps

shy_tall_knight · Oct 17, 2014

As much as I hate SISU for the unnecessary damage that they have done to the club, I want them to get the 50%, 100% WASPS ownership of the Ricoh is a disaster for CCFC,

Godiva · Oct 17, 2014

Nick said:
Good point, so if SISU get half of ACL they would have to pay the loan back wouldn't they? How would that work

It is my understanding that the loan stays as is. It sits with ACL, so anyone buying the shares of ACL also buys the obligation to service the loan.
Or the new owners of ACL can buy out the loan at the current outstanding balance.
(They would inject the cash needed into ACL and then ACL buys out the loan. If the money injected is by means of a loan, ACL then owes the money to the owners. If the money is injected as equity, then ACL will become debt free and increase in share value instead).

Nick · Oct 17, 2014

Godiva said:
It is my understanding that the loan stays as is. It sits with ACL, so anyone buying the shares of ACL also buys the obligation to service the loan.
Or the new owners of ACL can buy out the loan at the current outstanding balance.
(They would inject the cash needed into ACL and then ACL buys out the loan. If the money injected is by means of a loan, ACL then owes the money to the owners. If the money is injected as equity, then ACL will become debt free and increase in share value instead).

I meant if say sisu won the jr appeal and it was all overturned, nit saying they will.

If acl have to give it all back straight away and sisu own half it screws them up doesn't it.

rupert_bear · Oct 17, 2014

Are the Higgs Trust duty bound to sell to ccfc ltd should they or the administrator come up with the dosh ? What if though a third, fourth or fifth party offered more, lets say double as a charity I would assume Higgs would accept the highest offer possible can't see it looking good turning down 6 million and accepting less than 3

Godiva · Oct 17, 2014

Nick said:
I meant if say sisu won the jr appeal and it was all overturned, nit saying they will.

If acl have to give it all back straight away and sisu own half it screws them up doesn't it.

Supposing sisu own ACL and win the JR and ACL is ordered to pay back the loan. Then - as I posted earlier - sisu would inject the £14m needed to buy out the loan, either as a new loan from the owners or as equity making ACL debt free. It will be their decision.
What will be left is the claim for damages (which could finance a good chunk of the loan buy-out).

Godiva · Oct 17, 2014

rupert_bear said:
Are the Higgs Trust duty bound to sell to ccfc ltd should they or the administrator come up with the dosh ? What if though a third, fourth or fifth party offered more, lets say double as a charity I would assume Higgs would accept the highest offer possible can't see it looking good turning down 6 million and accepting less than 3

Higgs are only inviting offers from ccfc ltd - so it will be Mr Appelton who decide what offer from the three interested parties he deem best for the creditors of ccfc ltd (not best for Higgs!).
Should he decide on an offer from someone not Arvo (sisu), then Arvo (sisu) will receive a windfall from the bidder if accepted by Higgs.

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2014

Godiva said:
Higgs are only inviting offers from ccfc ltd - so it will be Mr Appelton who decide what offer from the three interested parties he deem best for the creditors of ccfc ltd (not best for Higgs!).
Should he decide on an offer from someone not Arvo (sisu), then Arvo (sisu) will receive a windfall from the bidder if accepted by Higgs.

Higgs own half of ACL so if ACL are the main creditor does that not mean. It would need to be the best deal for Higgs and the council?

Sick Boy · Oct 17, 2014

Nothing in the CT about this I see, on the ball as always!

skybluesam66 · Oct 17, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Higgs own half of ACL so if ACL are the main creditor does that not mean. It would need to be the best deal for Higgs and the council?

ACL are not the main creditor - they are a minority one. ARVO are the main creditor by far

Noggin · Oct 17, 2014

Sick Boy said:
Nothing in the CT about this I see, on the ball as always!

They didn't report on other Les Reid breaking news either, like the fact Ranson was part of the deal to buy wasps, or that 14 labour councillors were going to vote against the deal.

tisza · Oct 17, 2014

does ACL remain the main creditor or is it SBSL, otium etc? also PWKH was always saying the price of the Higgs shares was fixed by a formula and they were bound to get back the best deal for the charity.

Sick Boy · Oct 17, 2014

Noggin said:
They didn't report on other Les Reid breaking news either, like the fact Ranson was part of the deal to buy wasps, or that 14 labour councillors were going to vote against the deal.

He said that it was a rumour about Ranson.

It wasn't long ago that Reid was being lauded as well.

Why is your hatred of sisu greater than your love of the club?

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2014

Sick Boy said:
He said that it was a rumour about Ranson.

It wasn't long ago that Reid was being lauded as well.

Why is your hatred of sisu greater than your love of the club?

Forensic linguist would be all over this one as well

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2014

skybluesam66 said:
ACL are not the main creditor - they are a minority one. ARVO are the main creditor by far

Explain that one to me. I really don't get this?

As I thought by moving all assets out it left the lease as the most valuable remaining asset?

Godiva · Oct 17, 2014

tisza said:
does ACL remain the main creditor or is it SBSL, otium etc? also PWKH was always saying the price of the Higgs shares was fixed by a formula and they were bound to get back the best deal for the charity.

The formula price believed to be somewhere around £7m is something of a mystery here.
Is ACL only obliged to offer ccfc ltd to buy the shares at the formula price? If so, why are most posters here of the impression sisu can buy Higgs shares at the same price as Wasps?
Does anyone know?

Jack Griffin · Oct 17, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Explain that one to me. I really don't get this?

As I thought by moving all assets out it left the lease as the most valuable remaining asset?

Assets (which are very few) belonged to the company, the creditors are owed a debt, ARVO made large loans to the company.

Assets were valued & transferred to SBS&L or Otium (one of the2), the lease option could not be transferred, which is probably why the liquidation was not completed. Another SISU foobar?

Anyway, ARVO has a charge on all assets owned by the group of companies, so they own CCFC.. and get first dibs..

Godiva · Oct 17, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
Assets (which are very few) belonged to the company, the creditors are owed a debt, ARVO made large loans to the company.

Assets were valued & transferred to SBS&L or Otium (one of the2), the lease option could not be transferred, which is probably why the liquidation was not completed. Another SISU foobar?

Anyway, ARVO has a charge on all assets owned by the group of companies, so they own CCFC.. and get first dibs..

Nobody seem to suspect that sisu perhaps got wind of the possible deal with Wasps and deliberately delayed the liquidation?

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2014

Godiva said:
The formula price believed to be somewhere around £7m is something of a mystery here.
Is ACL only obliged to offer ccfc ltd to buy the shares at the formula price? If so, why are most posters here of the impression sisu can buy Higgs shares at the same price as Wasps?
Does anyone know?

If they bought it at the formula price it would still make far far far more sense than just renting forever it trying to build a new stadium

Rusty Trombone · Oct 17, 2014

Godiva said:
The formula price believed to be somewhere around £7m is something of a mystery here.
Is ACL only obliged to offer ccfc ltd to buy the shares at the formula price? If so, why are most posters here of the impression sisu can buy Higgs shares at the same price as Wasps?
Does anyone know?

The formula price would set a maximum price, they can always accept less, but I think the formula can't be used anyway as ACL are owed money from the old company.

Higgs were prepared to accept less than the formula before. We can forget about the formula price.

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
Assets (which are very few) belonged to the company, the creditors are owed a debt, ARVO made large loans to the company.

Assets were valued & transferred to SBS&L or Otium (one of the2), the lease option could not be transferred, which is probably why the liquidation was not completed. Another SISU foobar?

Anyway, ARVO has a charge on all assets owned by the group of companies, so they own CCFC.. and get first dibs..

Still don't get it sorry
But thanks for trying.
However effectively it makes sense to you that SISU( whatever name) are the main creditor. They are bidding for their own company to try and get it back because that company have to be offered the Higgs share.

That still leaves the power to veto, surely if SISU offer substantially more to the Higgs Charity for its share. Say 5 million payment up front.

Neither the council or the Higgs charity could/ would ethically or financially be able to veto it?

Noggin · Oct 17, 2014

Sick Boy said:
He said that it was a rumour about Ranson.

It wasn't long ago that Reid was being lauded as well.

Why is your hatred of sisu greater than your love of the club?

His words were "I'm hearing that" for the Ranson story, "my sources say" for the 14 councilers story and neither of those are very different to this story where he says "I understand that"

Les Reid did receive alot of praise and why would he not of done, he actually did some investigative journalism and he provided information we didn't have, I don't think any of the local journalism has been great but he did many praiseworthy things and so has Simon. I can not understand the attitude that you must only ever have one opinion about a certain person and their actions, this is an idiotic viewpoint that leads to idiotic after idiotic post, when you do well you get praised, when you throw your toys out of the pram, or do a poor job of interviewing someone, or you sing your own praises to sickening levels you get criticised. This is the reasonable viewpoint. This is how you reasonably dish out praise or criticism. There is no irony and no hypocrisy on criticising someone you have praised in the past and none in losing respect for someone you respected

Your final comment is nonsense

Rusty Trombone · Oct 17, 2014

skybluesam66 said:
ACL are not the main creditor - they are a minority one. ARVO are the main creditor by far

There was mention that 43 years of the ACL lease at £1.3m per year could form part of the creditors.

Grendel · Oct 17, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Still don't get it sorry
But thanks for trying.
However effectively it makes sense to you that SISU( whatever name) are the main creditor. They are bidding for their own company to try and get it back because that company have to be offered the Higgs share.

That still leaves the power to veto, surely if SISU offer substantially more to the Higgs Charity for its share. Say 5 million payment up front.

Neither the council or the Higgs charity could/ would ethically or financially be able to veto it?

Why would anyone pay twice as much for the shares as someone has owning the other half.

Anyway makes no odds will still be rejected.

skybluesam66 · Oct 17, 2014

dongonzalos said:
Explain that one to me. I really don't get this?

As I thought by moving all assets out it left the lease as the most valuable remaining asset?

the lease was the asset - There was a liability from ccfc to avro
that is why there was never going to be any other offer that could beat that of sisu post liquidation - as what ever they bid - 99% of it came back to themselves

Warwickhunt · Oct 17, 2014

Godiva said:
I don't believe Wasp can veto a deal by CCFC ltd (SBS&L), but they may have a cancellation option if they are unable to get all the shares.

So if sisu somehow manage to fulfil the requirements to buy Higgs shares, then the question is if Wasp will sell on their shares to sisu (for a profit/compensation) or simply walk away.

Another interesting issue is how much will it cost sisu to buy the shares through ccfc ltd and who will benefit the most. The biggest creditors are Otium and ACL (the lease). Buying the shares is buying half of ACL - and may open an option to buy the remaining half. So any money going to ACL could actually be money going back to sisu (if Wasp agree to sell). In addition any money going to Otium is money going to sisu.

If sisu manage to buy Higgs shares and Wasp cancel their deal - will the council sell their shares to sisu?

I heard that Higgs were not happy with CCC on how the deal with WASP was done and think they got the shitty end of the stick

Rusty Trombone · Oct 17, 2014

Grendel said:
Why would anyone pay twice as much for the shares as someone has owning the other half.

Anyway makes no odds will still be rejected.

The club paid very little for their 50% of the shares when ACL started, so it's happened before.

I'm not of course suggesting it would or should happen in this instance, just cheap point scoring, sorry about that.

Rusty Trombone · Oct 17, 2014

Warwickhunt said:
I heard that Higgs were not happy with CCC on how the deal with WASP was done and think they got the shitty end of the stick

Higgs could veto the deal if they weren't happy.

Grendel · Oct 17, 2014

Rusty Trombone said:
Higgs could veto the deal if they weren't happy.

Yeah course they could.

wingy · Oct 17, 2014

Wouldn't really need to have knowledge Godiva
Sure they wanted to lose the lease through the admin or liquidation, but regardless of Wasps they will have always wanted to obtain the option as they were always going to come back when the time was right
This has been expedited due to the other party
If I were a cynic I'd say the Coventry Council Telegragh have been utilised on whispers from the club 're #bring cityhomeand we all played along, not withstanding this deal would have simpler for the CCC with the club absent

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