Just let it happen (Help if you can) (1 Viewer)

Deleted member 5849 · Jun 6, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
I do not see why Wasps would want to

Same principle as when SISU bought us. Get us cheap, attempt to improve our profile to a position where something without value has a value. To that extent, you risk losing everything for the something.

In this case, you've got the proper hedge that you've taken over the main competitor for Wasps support (like it or not, they and we *are* fighting for the leisure time of people) so either, if they come to us, they still put cash into the main company, or you can ensure a lack of direct competition. You could even use CCFC to boost Waps' profile... and also that of the stadium. Even though we're at a low level naming, sponsorship... general awareness is easier with a football team.

Plus there's the psycholical angle. Wasps need to embed. Owning a traditional Coventry sporting team can help them do that. They care about the city, see, they are part of the city and it then becomes natural that Wasps are there.

Associate Wasps with CCFC and you also add extra hurdles to the traditional rgby team being able to cast its very long shadow.

Plus you've separated them all out, so if football team or Wasps goes bust, it doesn't affect the other... but if one goes bust, you still have the other for the stadium.

italiahorse · Jun 6, 2016

Sick Boy said:
His main concern is the money in his pocket.

Money has never been a problem.
In fact life's one big breeze.

Sent from my Gold Apple Watch in Monte Carlo.

oldfiver · Jun 6, 2016

Sick Boy said:
His main concern is the money in his pocket.

Perhaps we should just park this line of debate then?

Moff · Jun 6, 2016

italiahorse said:
Money has never been a problem.
In fact life's one big breeze.

Sent from my Gold Apple Watch in Monte Carlo.

Better get concrete shoes then so you don't blow over...

Brylowes · Jun 6, 2016

oldfiver said:
Perhaps we should just park this line of debate then?

Park it where ya like, as long as you pay your fiver.

MusicDating · Jun 6, 2016

Deleted member 5849 said:
Same principle as when SISU bought us. Get us cheap, attempt to improve our profile to a position where something without value has a value. To that extent, you risk losing everything for the something.

In this case, you've got the proper hedge that you've taken over the main competitor for Wasps support (like it or not, they and we *are* fighting for the leisure time of people) so either, if they come to us, they still put cash into the main company, or you can ensure a lack of direct competition. You could even use CCFC to boost Waps' profile... and also that of the stadium. Even though we're at a low level naming, sponsorship... general awareness is easier with a football team.

Plus there's the psycholical angle. Wasps need to embed. Owning a traditional Coventry sporting team can help them do that. They care about the city, see, they are part of the city and it then becomes natural that Wasps are there.

Associate Wasps with CCFC and you also add extra hurdles to the traditional rgby team being able to cast its very long shadow.

Plus you've separated them all out, so if football team or Wasps goes bust, it doesn't affect the other... but if one goes bust, you still have the other for the stadium.

Think this is pretty much spot on. The prospect of CCFC and CRC playing at the same location does seem to have spooked them a tad. I don't it's a coincidence that the Wasps PR campaign has coincided with the BPA talks announcement/leak.

SBT · Jun 6, 2016

Captain Dart said:
I think there is funding behind it, but if there is Council money involved we should challenge it, why should one sport be favoured?
I suggest someone writes a FOI request to CCC to ask about sports funding budgets.

Who says it's being favoured? Loads of sports get promoted this way. The paranoia around this one is bizarre. Have a bit more confidence, people, it'll take more than a website filled with stock rugby images to completely wipe out football as we know it from Coventry.

italiahorse · Jun 6, 2016

MusicDating said:
Think this is pretty much spot on. The prospect of CCFC and CRC playing at the same location does seem to have spooked them a tad. I don't it's a coincidence that the Wasps PR campaign has coincided with the BPA talks announcement/leak.

I bet they are quaking in their boots that Sisu are 'talking' about a plan that has no chance of getting planning permission based on just existing planning rules.
In fact I bet you now, that the 'actual' Sisu plan is for temporary stands and 8,000 capacity. Playing right into Wasps hands.

rupert_bear · Jun 6, 2016

It isn't just business man Derek Richardson behind Wasps, there are others one of whom I am lead to believe in the super rich bracket. Now looking how this all seems to be panning out it looks to me our owners are being painted into a corner, told no more talks re Ricoh or Academy whilst legislation continues, the Football League rules demand a minimum 10 year concrete plan on where you play to qualify for the golden share to enable to compete in the FL, which has announced plans to increase its membership to 100 clubs, significant ? With the golden share under threat the value of CCFC would plummet. Going to be interesting I reckon !

oldfiver · Jun 6, 2016

Brylowes said:
Park it where ya like, as long as you pay your fiver.

I get pensioners rate

oldfiver · Jun 6, 2016

italiahorse said:
I bet they are quaking in their boots that Sisu are 'talking' about a plan that has no chance of getting planning permission based on just existing planning rules.
In fact I bet you now, that the 'actual' Sisu plan is for temporary stands and 8,000 capacity. Playing right into Wasps hands.

Cough up - it already has planning for 13000

Astute · Jun 6, 2016

Deleted member 5849 said:
Same principle as when SISU bought us. Get us cheap, attempt to improve our profile to a position where something without value has a value. To that extent, you risk losing everything for the something.

In this case, you've got the proper hedge that you've taken over the main competitor for Wasps support (like it or not, they and we *are* fighting for the leisure time of people) so either, if they come to us, they still put cash into the main company, or you can ensure a lack of direct competition. You could even use CCFC to boost Waps' profile... and also that of the stadium. Even though we're at a low level naming, sponsorship... general awareness is easier with a football team.

Plus there's the psycholical angle. Wasps need to embed. Owning a traditional Coventry sporting team can help them do that. They care about the city, see, they are part of the city and it then becomes natural that Wasps are there.

Associate Wasps with CCFC and you also add extra hurdles to the traditional rgby team being able to cast its very long shadow.

Plus you've separated them all out, so if football team or Wasps goes bust, it doesn't affect the other... but if one goes bust, you still have the other for the stadium.

Exactly how I see it.

Deleted member 5849 · Jun 6, 2016

italiahorse said:
In fact I bet you now, that the 'actual' Sisu plan is for temporary stands and 8,000 capacity. Playing right into Wasps hands.

If that were the case, that in itself would put the wind up Wasps...

Astute · Jun 6, 2016

rupert_bear said:
With the golden share under threat the value of CCFC would plummet. Going to be interesting I reckon !

Just one question. How can a value of fuck all plummet?

Deleted member 5849 · Jun 6, 2016

rupert_bear said:
the Football League rules demand a minimum 10 year concrete plan on where you play to qualify for the golden share to enable to compete in the FL

The football league have been shown round the Butts. They've been consulted on that plan.

rupert_bear said:
With the golden share under threat the value of CCFC would plummet

CCFC has no value now, other than to interested parties.

MusicDating · Jun 6, 2016

italiahorse said:
I bet they are quaking in their boots that Sisu are 'talking' about a plan that has no chance of getting planning permission based on just existing planning rules.
In fact I bet you now, that the 'actual' Sisu plan is for temporary stands and 8,000 capacity. Playing right into Wasps hands.

Mention SISU even though they weren't in the previous post = Check
Mention capacity and that there's no chance of planning permission = Check
Mention of Wasps = Check

Grendel · Jun 6, 2016

Astute said:
What basics are they? A worthless white elephant that was sold well under value when nearly 50m of debt was secured against it?

Oh sorry that was you.

£40 million of debt hasn't been secured against it - have you read the bond prospectus?

Furthermore any comments made by me have been based on the original lease.

What you really need to think is why ACL was never made a 250 year lease at the outset, what they would have done to the business model, what that would have done to the Higgs share and what that would have given in terms of flexibility regarding the clubs rental arrangement.

All that said the shareholder value is what's paid for the business - it's difficult to put a case that it's increased at all at this stage surely.

Astute · Jun 6, 2016

Grendel said:
£40 million of debt hasn't been secured against it - have you read the bond prospectus?

So what happens to the arena if they don't pay the bond back?

Astute · Jun 6, 2016

Grendel said:
Furthermore any comments made by me have been based on the original lease.

Was this before the rent strike, after the rent strike started or even when they moved us to Northampton? Or when you wouldn't admit that it wasn't the white elephant like you hoped it was.

Grendel · Jun 6, 2016

Astute said:
So what happens to the arena if they don't pay the bond back?

They will not pay back as such - I suspect they will just do another bond in 2022.

The bond in terms if reward has nothing to do with the stadium.

If ACL fold it goes back to the original lease remember.

Grendel · Jun 6, 2016

Astute said:
Was this before the rent strike, after the rent strike started or even when they moved us to Northampton? Or when you wouldn't admit that it wasn't the white elephant like you hoped it was.

Again you appear very confused.

I'm referring to the impact an extension of lease has on a property.

Astute · Jun 6, 2016

Grendel said:
Again you appear very confused.

I'm referring to the impact an extension of lease has on a property.

But if it was a white elephant nobody would have wanted to extend the lease. You cheered SISU on all the way. You couldn't see that it could all go badly wrong. You made out that the value didn't go down because of the rent strike. You said it was always overvalued. Now you say that values change.

rupert_bear · Jun 6, 2016

Astute said:
Just one question. How can a value of fuck all plummet?

Sisu will tell us they have ploughed 60million+ since 2007 and want their money back should they sell, weakening their grip could be a tactic for a hostile takeover and ownership of this golden share crucial

Nick · Jun 6, 2016

Astute said:
But if it was a white elephant nobody would have wanted to extend the lease. You cheered SISU on all the way. You couldn't see that it could all go badly wrong. You made out that the value didn't go down because of the rent strike. You said it was always overvalued. Now you say that values change.

Surely extending the leases changes the whole white elephant thing as they effectively have freehold now? The lease extension was agreed the same time as the council's sale of shares so would have been a condition of the sale I think.

Skyblueweeman · Jun 6, 2016

rupert_bear said:
It isn't just business man Derek Richardson behind Wasps, there are others one of whom I am lead to believe in the super rich bracket.

If one is super rich, why raise £32m in bonds when there's a risk of repayment?

oldskyblue58 · Jun 6, 2016

Deleted member 5849 said:
Same principle as when SISU bought us. Get us cheap, attempt to improve our profile to a position where something without value has a value. To that extent, you risk losing everything for the something.

In this case, you've got the proper hedge that you've taken over the main competitor for Wasps support (like it or not, they and we *are* fighting for the leisure time of people) so either, if they come to us, they still put cash into the main company, or you can ensure a lack of direct competition. You could even use CCFC to boost Waps' profile... and also that of the stadium. Even though we're at a low level naming, sponsorship... general awareness is easier with a football team.

Plus there's the psycholical angle. Wasps need to embed. Owning a traditional Coventry sporting team can help them do that. They care about the city, see, they are part of the city and it then becomes natural that Wasps are there.

Associate Wasps with CCFC and you also add extra hurdles to the traditional rgby team being able to cast its very long shadow.

Plus you've separated them all out, so if football team or Wasps goes bust, it doesn't affect the other... but if one goes bust, you still have the other for the stadium.

or if you really are that worried about the competition (not convinced they are to the degree some suggest here) and hard nosed you let CCFC go bust and that takes out CRFC too as competition. Without CCFC as partner I doubt CRFC can finance a ground expansion as suggested and without that they will not compete well enough in the Championship.

It would look to all intents and purposes to a lot of fans that the demise of CCFC was down to SISU/ARVO. Wasps would no doubt claim we tried but CCFC/SISU couldn't agree to anything and continued the legals. CRFC wouldn't have a partner and would take much longer to build up any head of steam and finance it. That time can be further used to embed Wasps in to the community - a task they seem to be achieving quite well so far. Cost and risk to Wasps not a lot

That leaves the possibility of a white knight picking up the club for nothing and Wasps then saying you know what we have capacity at the stadium and we can make you a long term deal on incomes. At which point Wasps although separate look like saviours/partners of CCFC. Long term agreement enhances incomes and value at stadium. Cost and risk to Wasps not a lot

They do not in the present circumstances need to do much, in fact doing nothing offering nothing works for them and do not need to own CCFC to achieve domination of the local sports scene

That leaves CCFC with hard and costly choices to make now for alternatives that will not come to fruition for 4,5 or 6 years. During which time Wasps will have the ground, the training facilities, the community programs, the infiltration of the local community, all financed and in place

really quite worrying/scary looking at it .....

Nick · Jun 6, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
That leaves CCFC with hard and costly choices to make now for alternatives that will not come to fruition for 4,5 or 6 years. During which time Wasps will have the ground, the training facilities, the community programs, the infiltration of the local community, all financed and in place

And the whole of Coventry will be forced to think it was all down to Tim Fisher!

torchomatic · Jun 6, 2016

Astute said:
Just one question. How can a value of fuck all plummet?

Yep, when you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose.

skybluetony176 · Jun 6, 2016

Nick said:
And the whole of Coventry will be forced to think it was all down to Tim Fisher!

Poor Tim. Diddums.

Nick · Jun 6, 2016

skybluetony176 said:
Poor Tim. Diddums.

Meanwhile Wasps are heros and they have saved the world.

Deleted member 5849 · Jun 6, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
and hard nosed you let CCFC go bust and that takes out CRFC too as competition.

That is indeed an option.

And we might be grateful for legal action continuing yet, as the deal with the devil that gives us some life support...

Deleted member 5849 · Jun 6, 2016

Skyblueweeman said:
If one is super rich, why raise £32m in bonds when there's a risk of repayment?

You don't get to stay super-rich without a thirst for making money.

rupert_bear · Jun 6, 2016

Skyblueweeman said:
If one is super rich, why raise £32m in bonds when there's a risk of repayment?

Because that's what rich business men do, and stay rich look at the Glazers at Man.Utd

Grendel · Jun 6, 2016

Astute said:
But if it was a white elephant nobody would have wanted to extend the lease. You cheered SISU on all the way. You couldn't see that it could all go badly wrong. You made out that the value didn't go down because of the rent strike. You said it was always overvalued. Now you say that values change.

Obviously values change at the extension of a lease.

The football club were offered a formula agreement which was £10
Million for half on 42 year remaining lease. At best the amount Higgs were prepared to deal seems over £6 million.

An offer of over £5 million was made which Mr West admitted was "well over market value"

The Higgs share in isolation was, as wasps identified, worthless - that's why the council purchase was made first. This is due to the power and influence held by owning the half share - in Higgs case nothing.

The club were at best expected initially before any lease extension was discussed to pay £6 million for half - or put it another way - £285,000 a year for the remaining lease if the total amount was £12 million.

Wasps paid £43,000 a year.

That's why leasehold extension matters.

I keep asking you why do you think the lease was never extended when ACL was founded as it would, as I've tried to explain in very basic terms, have made life a lot easier for all concerned.

Astute · Jun 6, 2016

Nick said:
Surely extending the leases changes the whole white elephant thing as they effectively have freehold now? The lease extension was agreed the same time as the council's sale of shares so would have been a condition of the sale I think.

So you disagree that the white elephant remarks were not aimed at nobody but CCFC being interested in the arena?

Grendel said:
Obviously values change at the extension of a lease.

The football club were offered a formula agreement which was £10
Million for half on 42 year remaining lease. At best the amount Higgs were prepared to deal seems over £6 million.

An offer of over £5 million was made which Mr West admitted was "well over market value"

The Higgs share in isolation was, as wasps identified, worthless - that's why the council purchase was made first. This is due to the power and influence held by owning the half share - in Higgs case nothing.

The club were at best expected initially before any lease extension was discussed to pay £6 million for half - or put it another way - £285,000 a year for the remaining lease if the total amount was £12 million.

Wasps paid £43,000 a year.

That's why leasehold extension matters.

I keep asking you why do you think the lease was never extended when ACL was founded as it would, as I've tried to explain in very basic terms, have made life a lot easier for all concerned.

Why is it that you won't answer questions with answers but just ask more questions?

The formula price you always mention was never asked for. The 6.5m asked for was when we were still paying rent. And did SISU ever ask for a lease extension?

italiahorse · Jun 6, 2016

oldfiver said:
Cough up - it already has planning for 13000

No the Sisu "plan" if I recollect is 18,000 with the ability to be extended.

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