It's not Rocket Science (1 Viewer)

SIR ERNIE · Oct 22, 2014

On-field success in today’s football is almost entirely dependent on one major factor. Investment by the owners in quality players. Look through the leagues from Chelsea down to Eastleigh and you will see that there’s a direct correlation between money spent on players and games won.

Look at Bournemouth and compare with Blackpool. Look at Southampton and compare with Coventry.

Sacking the manager or changing formation are maybe short term fixes but they’re sticking plasters. There will never be anything other than decay and decline under these owners. Minimum £5m possibly £10m needs to be spent on players to get out of this crappy division fast. Not going to happen.

We’ve all been starved of any kind of success for decades and things are worse now than ever before and like everyone else I look with envy at Leicester, WBA, Saints, Stoke, even Forest and Derby. All clubs that we should be competing with. Changing the manager or formation isn’t going to achieve that.

Agreed, SISU aren’t responsible for all our problems. Previous owners played their part but the sharp decline in the last three years is due to SISU focussing on the freehold rewards of the Ricoh and abandoning any interest in football success.

Investment and therefore success will never happen under SISU.

stupot07 · Oct 22, 2014

Investment and therefore success will never happen under sisu - agreed

Investment and therefore success will also no happen whilst we are merely tenants, with little/no access to match day and 365 day year revenue.....oh wait

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Nick · Oct 22, 2014

So everyone above us has spent more? Don't expect world beaters with our squad but should be doing much better

skybluelee · Oct 22, 2014

Ernie - Yes 100% agree. Depressing, isn't it?

skybluelee · Oct 22, 2014

Nick said:
So everyone above us has spent more? Don't expect world beaters with our squad but should be doing much better

Not necessarily but how many have lost almost every single player of any genuine quality in the last few years and are left with pinning their hopes on 17 yo kids?

I think our strongest XI can compete in this league but the squad cannot as is being proven already.

Senior Vick from Alicante · Oct 22, 2014

The fact that Wilson has now scored 9 goals at a higher level is testament to the short sighted approach of the owners. If we had built on last season with 2 quality players we would have had a chance. The constant dismantling of the side every season is killing us.

Otis · Oct 22, 2014

Nick said:
So everyone above us has spent more? Don't expect world beaters with our squad but should be doing much better

Agree, Nick. In spite of everything, we should still be more competetive than we are. We still should be able to put out a side that at least doesn't get walked all over.

Deleted member 4439 · Oct 22, 2014

Senior Vick from Alicante said:
The fact that Wilson has now scored 9 goals at a higher level is testament to the short sighted approach of the owners. If we had built on last season with 2 quality players we would have had a chance. The constant dismantling of the side every season is killing us.

If there's one thing I don't blame SISU for it's the selling the Clarke: the price maybe, but not the act. FPP considerations aside, it seems that Wilson wanted off quite some time ago to better himself, and who would blame him for that. I wonder how much say Pressley had in taking the B'moth loanees? Step up Mr Waggot - you seem to have gone quiet over recent weeks.

Noggin · Oct 22, 2014

Nick said:
So everyone above us has spent more? Don't expect world beaters with our squad but should be doing much better

This is too simplistic a way to look at squad investment. While I don't believe everyone above us has spent more, I do believe we are the squad with the least investment.

We all know that free signings are in many cases a gamble in this league that most clubs have to take, however if you have very short contracts that prevent the successes paying off then thats a problem, if you try to bring in too many at once you can't be picky and have to desperation buy increasing the chance of failure, if you sell your successes and don't reinvest the money thats negative investment really. If we sold Haynes, Finch, Maddison tomorrow and not reinvested the money we'd have just massively negatively invested in the squad yet you would still be able to post with the same validity "so everyone above us has spent more?" you can't just look at our total wage budget and know how we stand compared to others (not that any of us know the number anyway) I don't believe the 2.7mill for a second, because had we not sold Wilson our squad would be significantly better but the wage spend would be similar (perhaps even less)

Which other teams had to try and replace 70% (excuse guessed number) of the squad over the summer

Noggin · Oct 22, 2014

dubed said:
If there's one thing I don't blame SISU for it's the selling the Clarke: the price maybe, but not the act. FPP considerations aside, it seems that Wilson wanted off quite some time ago to better himself, and who would blame him for that. I wonder how much say Pressley had in taking the B'moth loanees? Step up Mr Waggot - you seem to have gone quiet over recent weeks.

I do, the way the club was/is being run will have made players want to leave/not want to sign. Any player with any sense would have wanted out over the last couple of years if a similar deal or better came along.

Nick · Oct 22, 2014

Otis said:
Agree, Nick. In spite of everything, we should still be more competetive than we are. We still should be able to put out a side that at least doesn't get walked all over.

Exactly. I know we have limitations and while I would love for us to be hammering the league with millions of pounds invested but we have to be realistic.

Some will be on here shouting blame the owners because they haven't spent loads of money but looking at the league, how many teams have spent loads of money?

It is the reason Thorn got away with so much shit as well.

You just need to watch the team to know that the manager has to take some of the blame, you wouldn't even mind if the players came out like they were going to war and gave it their all.

mrtrench · Oct 22, 2014

Nick said:
So everyone above us has spent more? Don't expect world beaters with our squad but should be doing much better

It must be true that everyone above us has spent the same or more. Because I don't believe anyone in our squad cost anything. Am I missing someone?

italiahorse · Oct 22, 2014

stupot07 said:
Investment and therefore success will never happen under sisu - agreed

Investment and therefore success will also no happen whilst we are merely tenants, with little/no access to match day and 365 day year revenue.....oh wait

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

But to get those incomes you still have to invest in them.
Infrastructure for obtaining those incomes like catering equipment, supply logistics etc etc don't come for free.
Ask Compass and ACL.

Godiva · Oct 22, 2014

This article - and the link to the study - suggests there's a formula to calculate when a manager should be sacked. The formula takes into account injuries, suspensions, wage bill, transfer fee's and off-field disturbance.

The article:
http://www.sportingintelligence.com...ct-science-who-got-it-right-and-wrong-230401/

The study:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21649480.2013.768829#.VEdbhmd01hE

Two familiar managers are mentioned - Aidy Boothroyd (poor performance prior to his sacking at Watford) and Chris Coleman (good performance prior to his sacking at Fulham).

Although the formula is shown there's no link to a model to test Pressley's performance against the objective expectations.

So, it actually is science.
And maybe the performance should be expected when we take into account factors like injuries, suspension, wage bill, transfer fee's spent and off field matters.

Noggin · Oct 22, 2014

Nick said:
Some will be on here shouting blame the owners because they haven't spent loads of money but looking at the league, how many teams have spent loads of money?

again too simplistic, how many teams sold nearly all their best players including the vast majority of the goals in the squad and a great keeper and then didn't spend anything to replace them?

Nick · Oct 22, 2014

mrtrench said:
It must be true that everyone above us has spent the same or more. Because I don't believe anyone in our squad cost anything. Am I missing someone?

Yes, that we are in league one and that most signings are frees or loans. I am not saying some teams don't buy players as they do, but not as much as people make out.

ajsccfc · Oct 22, 2014

At some point the players and coaching staff have to be held somewhat responsible for losing several games of football.

Nick · Oct 22, 2014

Noggin said:
again too simplistic, how many teams sold nearly all their best players including the vast majority of the goals in the squad and a great keeper and then didn't spend anything to replace them?

We didn't sell most of our players did we? Their contracts expired and they went to teams in the league above bar Clarke and Wilson. I do agree we should have spent on a decent league one striker though.

SIR ERNIE · Oct 22, 2014

Senior Vick from Alicante said:
The fact that Wilson has now scored 9 goals at a higher level is testament to the short sighted approach of the owners. If we had built on last season with 2 quality players we would have had a chance. The constant dismantling of the side every season is killing us.

Had £20 at 37/1 CW top scorer in championship on Befair pre season.

Gynnsthetonic · Oct 22, 2014

SISU won't and do not want to invest anymore, Fisher has stated it is not viable for us to be promoted so what's the fucking point going up to support our team with that ambition. I went to the first 3 games back at the Ricoh and will not be going any more till SISU are gone. My first game by the way Arsenal at home 1978 stood on the west terrace on a beer crate my dad took in, this club is a shambles and am smashed to be supporter of this once proud club.

zigojacko · Oct 22, 2014

I can play with Coventry City on FIFA and easily compete for promotion. It's definitely possible.

Don't know what's wrong with the players, managers, coaches etc!?

Noggin · Oct 22, 2014

Nick said:
We didn't sell most of our players did we? Their contracts expired and they went to teams in the league above bar Clarke and Wilson. I do agree we should have spent on a decent league one striker though.

The fact they went to the league above proves the point I'm trying to make but I'm not convinced you understand, we needed to invest in order not to go backwards because our best players were leaving. You can't say well we spent nothing and X team spent nothing and X team is doing better than us thus we are underperforming and it's the managers fault.

Rather than saying we spent nothing you could make an argument that we spent minus 4 million and minus 1 million in wages (obviously speculated figures) and not only have we done that but we had to bring in far more new gambles than anyone else, mostly on short contracts so they can't pay off whatever happens and we had to attract these players while in a terrible situation off the pitch.

Nick · Oct 22, 2014

Noggin said:
The fact they went to the league above proves the point I'm trying to make but I'm not convinced you understand, we needed to invest in order not to go backwards because our best players were leaving. You can't say well we spent nothing and X team spent nothing and X team is doing better than us thus we are underperforming and it's the managers fault.

Rather than saying we spent nothing you could make an argument that we spent minus 4 million and minus 1 million in wages (obviously speculated figures) and not only have we done that but we had to bring in far more new gambles than anyone else, mostly on short contracts so they can't pay off whatever happens and we had to attract these players while in a terrible situation off the pitch.

I am not saying everything is 100% Pressley's fault. We are in League One, the league is made up of free transfers and loans apart from a couple of clubs that will buy players. We lost Wilson and Clarke which were a big loss and we should have spent some of the money on a proven goalscorer at least. We have signed strikers though haven't we, we have signed midfielders and defenders. Surely Simeon Jackson should be better than Danny Philliskirk? Look at the Oldham team last night.

A good manager will get the best out of what they have wouldn't they? Yes, we may have lost players but they have been replaced haven't they? I am not questioning quality wise how they have performed since they signed for us as it is quite clear McQuoid isn't like for like for Wilson, so then you have to look at the manager don't you for signing them (or Waggot) and managing them

zigojacko · Oct 22, 2014

Can't understand why we didn't try and get a proven goalscorer in the wake of CW leaving.

The likes of Paddy Madden and Top Pope spring to mind (there are plenty more). Coventry would have been a much more attractive club to have joined instead of Scunthorpe and Port Vale providing that we could display just a smidgen of ambition (I would have thought)!

Instead, we end up with a mix of (reject) loanees, offcasts and youth players and can't even maintain any kind of consistency in team selection as we can't figure out who wants this the most and will perform well (granted, injuries can't be helped).

We are losing to everyone we play in the league now, even those struggling at the bottom. I can't really see who in the team can turn this around, hitting the back of the net is just one issue of many. I think we could be closer to relegation to the 4th tier this season than ever before...

Noggin · Oct 22, 2014

Nick said:
I am not saying everything is 100% Pressley's fault. We are in League One, the league is made up of free transfers and loans apart from a couple of clubs that will buy players. We lost Wilson and Clarke which were a big loss and we should have spent some of the money on a proven goalscorer at least. We have signed strikers though haven't we, we have signed midfielders and defenders. Surely Simeon Jackson should be better than Danny Philliskirk? Look at the Oldham team last night.

A good manager will get the best out of what they have wouldn't they? Yes, we may have lost players but they have been replaced haven't they? I am not questioning quality wise how they have performed since they signed for us as it is quite clear McQuoid isn't like for like for Wilson, so then you have to look at the manager don't you for signing them (or Waggot) and managing them

I realise that and don't disagree that many of the league rely on free transfers, you and many others believe that means that the way we have acted puts us on a par investment wise with the other clubs who are only buying frees. I don't agree with that at all. no one else had to try and rebuild the squad like we did in the summer with frees and kids.

and no I don't agree that we replaced our lost players, for the most part we replaced proven players with players that were big gambles, either injury prone, or not performing. Everytime we did this there was worry but the same reply comes out but but but David McGoldrick.

It is possible that it's Pressleys fault but I don't really believe he got the players he wanted, I believe he was recruiting under impossible circumstances and there was almost no way he could keep the squad the same quality as last year (which already wasn't good enough) Do we really think he picked the 3 players from Bournemouth for instance? I believe they just came along from the Wilson deal and just having to do what he can with what he can get. You can't build a team when you are having to change so many players and you arn't even getting the resources to pick what you need.

I think we are just going to be even worse off if we sack him, we'll have to pay out a 4 year contract, still have the same shitty squad and need to attract a manager whose willing to work with no resources at a club thats only headed one way.

Nick · Oct 22, 2014

Noggin said:
I realise that and don't disagree that many of the league rely on free transfers, you and many others believe that means that the way we have acted puts us on a par investment wise with the other clubs who are only buying frees. I don't agree with that at all. no one else had to try and rebuild the squad like we did in the summer with frees and kids.

and no I don't agree that we replaced our lost players, for the most part we replaced proven players with players that were big gambles, either injury prone, or not performing. Everytime we did this there was worry but the same reply comes out but but but David McGoldrick.

It is possible that it's Pressleys fault but I don't really believe he got the players he wanted, I believe he was recruiting under impossible circumstances and there was almost no way he could keep the squad the same quality as last year (which already wasn't good enough) Do we really think he picked the 3 players from Bournemouth for instance? I believe they just came along from the Wilson deal and just having to do what he can with what he can get. You can't build a team when you are having to change so many players and you arn't even getting the resources to pick what you need.

I think we are just going to be even worse off if we sack him, we'll have to pay out a 4 year contract, still have the same shitty squad and need to attract a manager whose willing to work with no resources at a club thats only headed one way.

So how aren't we on par because we got rid of Wilson and Clarke for example, not every other team in the league had a Wilson or Clarke to get rid of? Surely it means last season when we had Wilson and Clarke he was underperfoming even more?

I don't disagree if we spent £3m on players we would be a lot higher in the league.

There will always be managers applying for the job here. The "nobody would want the job" theory went out of the window when Thorn left.

Noggin · Oct 22, 2014

Nick said:
So how aren't we on par because we got rid of Wilson and Clarke for example, not every other team in the league had a Wilson or Clarke to get rid of? Surely it means last season when we had Wilson and Clarke he was underperfoming even more?

I don't disagree if we spent £3m on players we would be a lot higher in the league.

There will always be managers applying for the job here. The "nobody would want the job" theory went out of the window when Thorn left.

I didn't say no one would apply for the job, there will be dozens of applicants of course there will. I said I think we will be worse off if we sack him and I do think we'll struggle to attract someone better.

As for the rest of the post I give up, I'm obviously not explaining my point properly because you are no where near it.

Houdi · Oct 22, 2014

stupot07 said:
Investment and therefore success will never happen under sisu - agreed

Investment and therefore success will also no happen whilst we are merely tenants, with little/no access to match day and 365 day year revenue.....oh wait

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

The trouble is, that sentence 2 is directly related to sentence 1, they are not mutually exclusive. The reason we haven't got match day revenues and 365 day/year revenues,is precisely because of what has happened in sentence 1.

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