It could have been different ? (1 Viewer)

oldskyblue58 · Apr 19, 2012

I dont really buy into the bad luck theory because all teams can point to it and say they have had bad luck at some point. This is also not a finger pointing at AT or SISU - thats covered elsewhere.

But there are little things that add up over a season that with just a little application, work, intelligence, courage etc (call it what you will) mean it might have been different. Consider these (feel free to add to it)

- average number of home wins in the season presently 10 (rounded up) we have 8, just being average would have made a difference
- average number of away wins to date is 7 (rounded up) we have 1 - not being average but having the next worst number of away wins 3 would have made a difference
- we have had 9 penalties this season scored 5 - is it reasonable to assume we should have scored say 7 and possibly pocketed 4 more points ?
- Injuries, all teams have them but we seem to have picked up a lot, possibly more than we should - not good in such a small squad perhaps better attention to fitness and preparation would have helped?
- it seems increasingly common that players throw their dummy out and refuse to play but take the money. We couldnt afford that to happen for lots of reasons - thanks Freddy
- senior players in general having a poor season Baker, Bell, Clingan, McSheffery, McPake, etc. You would expect that to happen to some but not so many.
- the lack of clear leadership that drives a team through especially when the going gets tough

Yes there are major reasons centered on SISU, yes we can argue the merits or not of the manager but there are some very fine lines that we havent met that are very costly and some surely indicate under performance ?

When you look at it, small squad, lack of quality, inexperienced manager, little investment etc etc we were not far away from making it. Thats very frustrating

Otis · Apr 19, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
I dont really buy into the bad luck theory because all teams can point to it and say they have had bad luck at some point. This is also not a finger pointing at AT or SISU - thats covered elsewhere.

But there are little things that add up over a season that with just a little application, work, intelligence, courage etc (call it what you will). Consider these (feel free to add to it)

- average number of home wins in the season presently 10 (rounded up) we have 8, just being average would have made a difference
- average number of away wins to date is 7 (rounded up) we have 1 - not being average but having the next worst number of away wins 3 would have made a difference
- we have had 9 penalties this season scored 5 - is it reasonable to assume we should have scored say 7 and possibly pocketed 4 more points ?
- Injuries, all teams have them but we seem to have picked up a lot, possibly more than we should - not good in such a small squad perhaps better attention to fitness and preparation would have helped?
- it seems increasingly common that players throw their dummy out and refuse to play but take the money. We couldnt afford that to happen for lots of reasons - thanks Freddy
- senior players in general having a poor season Baker, Bell, Clingan, McSheffery, McPake, etc. You would expect that to happen to some but not so many.
- the lack of clear leadership that drives a team through especially when the going gets tough

Yes there are major reasons centered on SISU, yes we can argue the merits or not of the manager but there are some very fine lines that we havent met that are very costly and some surely indicate under performance ?

When you look at it, small squad, lack of quality, inexperienced manager, little investment etc etc we were not far away from making it. Thats very frustrating

Putting the off field problems aside we have contributed to our own downfall as you have alluded to OSB.

Bell, Clingan, Sheff, Freddy and to some degree Carl Baker, have all been a big let down, Clingan especially. When you have a small squad such as ours and only a sprinkling of good players you need those good players to be consistent. they have not. Only 2 players have shown any degree of consistency all season and they have been Keogh and Cranie.

To my mind to have any chance of doing anything in any division we need to get rid of the likes of David Bell who has just breezed his way through 3 years at the club (when he hasn't been injured).

There have been a number of games too where the players have failed to turn up and these games have funnily enough been when we have had a very good following behind us (Leshtur, Forest, Bristol).

We have also failed to capitalise on leads we have held and for the most part have seemingly tried to hold on to what we have got rather than go out and get a killer second goal.

Lots of on field problems on top of everything else for sure.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 19, 2012

Really hits home how fortunate Bristol City have been when their survival is a result of Pompey's diabolical finances and our own cocktail of on and off field mismanagement. We've given them survival on a silver plate and that's very difficult to accept when we have dealt with handicaps not experienced by the rest of the division.

oldskyblue58 · Apr 19, 2012

three games that have been crucial to our season Forest away, Bristol away, Millwall home get anything at all from all those and we would have had a chance. Lose to Hull but beat Bristol and winning only one away from home wouldnt have hurt so much. Fine lines. Seems every time we had an important game some scandal or problem crawled out of the woodwork at CCFC - timing of things hit us and the players confidence. Little things add up over a season

rob9872 · Apr 19, 2012

Why is everyone so down on Clingan? The guy is not a leader but was playing with an injury and in my mind has been among our better recent performers. He just seems such an easy target. In a better side I think he would be better too and the quality around him is part of the problem imo.

crowsnest · Apr 19, 2012

oldskyblue58 said:
I dont really buy into the bad luck theory because all teams can point to it and say they have had bad luck at some point. This is also not a finger pointing at AT or SISU - thats covered elsewhere.

But there are little things that add up over a season that with just a little application, work, intelligence, courage etc (call it what you will) mean it might have been different. Consider these (feel free to add to it)

- average number of home wins in the season presently 10 (rounded up) we have 8, just being average would have made a difference
- average number of away wins to date is 7 (rounded up) we have 1 - not being average but having the next worst number of away wins 3 would have made a difference
- we have had 9 penalties this season scored 5 - is it reasonable to assume we should have scored say 7 and possibly pocketed 4 more points ?
- Injuries, all teams have them but we seem to have picked up a lot, possibly more than we should - not good in such a small squad perhaps better attention to fitness and preparation would have helped?
- it seems increasingly common that players throw their dummy out and refuse to play but take the money. We couldnt afford that to happen for lots of reasons - thanks Freddy
- senior players in general having a poor season Baker, Bell, Clingan, McSheffery, McPake, etc. You would expect that to happen to some but not so many.
- the lack of clear leadership that drives a team through especially when the going gets tough

Yes there are major reasons centered on SISU, yes we can argue the merits or not of the manager but there are some very fine lines that we havent met that are very costly and some surely indicate under performance ?

When you look at it, small squad, lack of quality, inexperienced manager, little investment etc etc we were not far away from making it. Thats very frustrating

Thats our 4 senior midfielders listed there - not one has even had an average season.

stupot07 · Apr 19, 2012

Clingan has been very good in the last 6-7 games. However we have not seen these levels of performances from him for the majority of the season. I think that's why people get on his back - we know he has ability Henry he's played in his comfort zone too many times this season. If he's been carrying an injury most of the season then that probably explains it.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 19, 2012

rob9872 said:
Why is everyone so down on Clingan? The guy is not a leader but was playing with an injury and in my mind has been among our better recent performers. He just seems such an easy target. In a better side I think he would be better too and the quality around him is part of the problem imo.

He has looked lethargic and disinterested all season long, barring a few flashes of ability. When he missed his penalty at Leicester he just didn't look at all fussed-and equally when he gifted Brighton their first goal at the Amex, he just stood staring at the goal. He has looked all season long a player who knows he will be leaving in the summer and can't wait for it to arrive; disgrace of a captain when the likes of Norwood, a loanee, show bags more passion and quality.

rob9872 · Apr 19, 2012

I agree Norwood probably shows more quality but that imo is because he possesses more quality. If he wants to make it at United or even in the PL that's a given. I don't get where this notion that he is more passionate though as is constantly repeated on here unless saying on twitter how much you care is what we are to benchmark it by. Clingan is not the reason we are where we are, in fact quite the opposite I believe. I agree he hasn't performed as well as he did last campaign, but it's probably easier to express himself with some of the players he had around him then. I think he is getting most of the criticism because everyone expects him to step up and be a leader, but he never was a leader and should never have been given the armband in the first place.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 19, 2012

rob9872 said:
I agree Norwood probably shows more quality but that imo is because he possesses more quality. If he wants to make it at United or even in the PL that's a given. I don't get where this notion that he is more passionate though as is constantly repeated on here unless saying on twitter how much you care is what we are to benchmark it by. Clingan is not the reason we are where we are, in fact quite the opposite I believe. I agree he hasn't performed as well as he did last campaign, but it's probably easier to express himself with some of the players he had around him then. I think he is getting most of the criticism because everyone expects him to step up and be a leader, but he never was a leader and should never have been given the armband in the first place.

I don't use Twitter as a means to gauge a player's passion-I gauge it by what they do on the pitch and how they respond to what goes on around them. Norwood's celebrations after his goals at Cardiff and then against Pompey were more enthusiasm than I've seen from Clingan all season. Of course I don't blame him for our league position, that would be ludicrous-but as club captain he has fallen well, well short of expectation when in Keogh we have someone made for the role. Juke played with commitment right up to his departure, when we knew he was destined to leave for some time-in other words, he played as every professional should do. Clingan has let himself down big time in that department.

Otis · Apr 19, 2012

Clingan has only played well for the last few games.

Funny that with his contract up and him wanting to impress new clubs.

oldskyblue58 · Apr 19, 2012

Otis said:
Clingan has only played well for the last few games.

Funny that with his contract up and him wanting to impress new clubs.

Seem to remember a lot of forest fans saying that is what would happen

He has played well the last few games but I am still left with the impression overall this season he hasnt done that often enough.

pusbccfc · Apr 19, 2012

But should they be classed as senior?
Not one is over 30, and non have ever been any good anyway!

dadgad · Apr 19, 2012

pusbccfc said:
But should they be classed as senior?
Not one is over 30, and non have ever been any good anyway!

So true. Many have gone on about the team "under performing" but where is the evidence? There just isn't any, never has been.

oldskyblue58 · Apr 19, 2012

so in achieving the worst away record in the top 10 english divisions and being 2 wins behind the next worst in the division but doing significantly better at home we have performed to our abilities home and away then ? or have we surpassed ourselves ?

Were we capable of beating other teams away from home ? If so we under achieved and under performed. Start of the season no one expected us to win only one match away from home.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 19, 2012

dadgad said:
So true. Many have gone on about the team "under performing" but where is the evidence? There just isn't any, never has been.

How many away games lost in a row was it? If that was performing as expected, what isn't?

BurbageSkyBlues · Apr 19, 2012

I think all of this just highlights the fine line between success and failure.

Ultimately, the club needs a catalyst to inspire that extra 5-10% that would make the huge difference.

If you take the gap between the teams that just avoid relegation, and those that just miss out on play-off places, it is probably in the order of twenty points. That's just 7 wins between success and failure.......which, over a season of 46 games, is not a lot to achieve, let alone hope for. Maybe it all boils down to confidence and motivation, for that extra push, be it in the last few minutes of each game, or in the last few games of the season, or the effort put into training (by management and players).

Good post !

SydneySkyBlue · Apr 19, 2012

BurbageSkyBlues said:
I think all of this just highlights the fine line between success and failure.

Ultimately, the club needs a catalyst to inspire that extra 5-10% that would make the huge difference.

If you take the gap between the teams that just avoid relegation, and those that just miss out on play-off places, it is probably in the order of twenty points. That's just 7 wins between success and failure.......which, over a season of 46 games, is not a lot to achieve, let alone hope for. Maybe it all boils down to confidence and motivation, for that extra push, be it in the last few minutes of each game, or in the last few games of the season, or the effort put into training (by management and players).

Good post !

Precisely why, as AT said, you can't cut corners in this league. You sell your quality and you get found out, especially if you were already struggling before you sold those players.

It's that extra quality that wins matches and divides the top from the bottom.

If we'd been in the position to keep the likes of King, Westwood, Turner and Gunnarsson in the summer and built on that core of players we may well have been challenging at the other end.

dadgad · Apr 19, 2012

Brighton Sky Blue said:
How many away games lost in a row was it? If that was performing as expected, what isn't?

Doh! Smacks head.
Where is the evidence that City players are "under performing" when they have never ever delivered?
I know this has been difficult for some to get but our squad is full of very very average players with previous failure a constant theme. How, therefore, is it possible for anybody to reason that they have "under performed"?
Ludicrous.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Apr 19, 2012

The players bottled it, we had a decent run when we were adrift. As soon as we give our selves a chance of survival the players cracked under the pressure.

Godiva · Apr 19, 2012

Nobody mention this Herminator guy.
I think he could have been the new 'Wise' ... he certainly showed a lot of desire!
Did AT take him in to give the team a leader?

As this is a thread of 'it could all have been so very different if ...' I will go on and mention the away game against Palace. One nil up going into injury time and then lose two one.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 19, 2012

dadgad said:
Doh! Smacks head.
Where is the evidence that City players are "under performing" when they have never ever delivered?
I know this has been difficult for some to get but our squad is full of very very average players with previous failure a constant theme. How, therefore, is it possible for anybody to reason that they have "under performed"?
Ludicrous.

You 'under perform' when you deliver less than was expected of you-my reasoning is that nobody expected us to do things on the road like lose 11 in a row; I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the word

Stoppercurtis · Apr 19, 2012

How many games did we lose by one goal. How many games did we lose or draw in the last five mins or injury time. How many penalties did we miss?

Its all academic now. We didn't score enough goals (losing King is the reason why) adn the squad was simply not big enough.

Having supported this club since I was five (I'm now 63) we are now back where we started!

I'm gutted but I'll probably be there again next season!

Stopper

dadgad · Apr 19, 2012

Brighton Sky Blue said:
You 'under perform' when you deliver less than was expected of you-my reasoning is that nobody expected us to do things on the road like lose 11 in a row; I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the word

And most people expected precious little, everybody within the game, with a modicum of understanding of the game, of physics, the rules of nature and the economic law of diminishing returns knew we couldn't realistically expect to OVER-PERFORM.
And if you need an objective evaluation of the bleeding obvious have a look at the league table.

Godiva · Apr 19, 2012

Stoppercurtis said:
Having supported this club since I was five (I'm now 63) we are now back where we started!

Second childhood?

oldskyblue58 · Apr 19, 2012

You know what the whole thread was not a statement that it was clear evidence that the team under performed. The whole musing was that the measures between success and failure (staying up or relegation in this case) are and were actually quite small. It is all ifs buts and maybes and I made that clear. For a team of no hopers who never stood any chance according to some on here we were not actually too far short .... and with a little bit of fortune or application or nous or belief etc ..... who knows

realistically it was always going to be a struggle..... but it was not ordained from day one we would go down to League 1. In the end the margins have been close and could realistically have been better. Not saying lots better but it didnt need to be did it in the end. we were two or three wins away as it stands

Me, well I like to think I can always do better, I dont accept failure before I start, but if I have given it my best shot I can live with it happily. Glass half full I suppose. Could we have done better then yes in my opinion - would it have been enough, i dont know. The bottom half of the Championship was not great, not even good, the margin between success and failure has not been much. It was possible but it didnt happen, for some major reasons but also some much simpler easier fixed ones too

i think the club could have done better in a whole lot of things this season on and off the pitch. Have said before the only parts of this season I do not feel let down by are the youngsters who stepped up to the plate and the fans who kept the faith through thin and thinner. The rest in my opinion came up short

This club, its team and some of its supporters have become too accepting of failure, too used to under achieving. It has become a comfortable habit, a mindset to accomplish nothing

just my opinion

Paxman II · Apr 19, 2012

I think if we had a 'Dennis Wise' character in there this season we would have survived. That's the fine line we are talking about.

the table never lies and we are where we are deservedly for sure.

What's frustrating is that regardless of SISU and the clubs antics, small squad, playing kids etc we really should have bagged a we really should have scrapped by. Such anemic displays at Forest and Bristol alone cost us dearly.

That's down to the team on the pitch and the manager.

I guess SISU must be gutted but all I can say to them is "you reap what you sow".

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 19, 2012

dadgad said:
And most people expected precious little, everybody within the game, with a modicum of understanding of the game, of physics, the rules of nature and the economic law of diminishing returns knew we couldn't realistically expect to OVER-PERFORM.
And if you need an objective evaluation of the bleeding obvious have a look at the league table.

Suspect we're fundamentally arguing the same point-though insulting my intelligence doesn't add a lot to the debate. Nobody expected miracles.

bcfcjosh · Apr 19, 2012

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Really hits home how fortunate Bristol City have been when their survival is a result of Pompey's diabolical finances and our own cocktail of on and off field mismanagement. We've given them survival on a silver plate and that's very difficult to accept when we have dealt with handicaps not experienced by the rest of the division.

Sorry, Bristol City fan here, I know I have no real place on these boards but we have had worse injury problems than perhaps all teams in the division apart from maybe yourselves. When you add in the horrendous financial state that we are in following the disastrous Steve Coppell era it doesn't look so rosy after all.

And regarding Portsmouth, if we win against Barnsley we move above them and are safe even with Pompey having 10 points deducted, and you can only play against the field which you are given...

Sorry that you look like you're down, as I really wanted Barnsley and Forest to drop a little further...

georgehudson · Apr 19, 2012

i'm not a thorn apologist, neither am i in any way happy at the position the club finds itself in,
to me it still beggars belief at the way our owners have conducted themselves,
paxman's comment on sisu 'you reap what you sow' is spot on,
surely by now the invisible sisu investors must be asking questions ?
further to which, confidentiality clauses removed, (which will not be the case), there would be one hell of a book on their antics

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 19, 2012

bcfcjosh said:
Sorry, Bristol City fan here, I know I have no real place on these boards but we have had worse injury problems than perhaps all teams in the division apart from maybe yourselves. When you add in the horrendous financial state that we are in following the disastrous Steve Coppell era it doesn't look so rosy after all.

And regarding Portsmouth, if we win against Barnsley we move above them and are safe even with Pompey having 10 points deducted, and you can only play against the field which you are given...

Sorry that you look like you're down, as I really wanted Barnsley and Forest to drop a little further...

Ourselves and Portsmouth have the smallest squads, and we have been operating with ours all season long. The telling statistic was that you were able to call in 6 players to freshen up your team before Easter Monday, and were able to make further additions before the loan window shut. By contrast, we played a few players carrying knocks and have been at the bare bones stage practically all season long. It simply is not comparable-and if things are not looking so rosy, might I ask why you're building a new stadium? Appreciate it looks like I'm playing down your survival, but it seems clear to me-a properly run CCFC would be above you in the table.
All irrelevant anyway-we are where we are and that's that.

oakey · Apr 19, 2012

rob9872 said:
Why is everyone so down on Clingan? The guy is not a leader but was playing with an injury and in my mind has been among our better recent performers. He just seems such an easy target. In a better side I think he would be better too and the quality around him is part of the problem imo.

Agree. The criticism of Clingan has both baffled and angered me this season. Way too much has been expected of him. I, for one, think he has had lots of good games and few poor ones. I watch him and don't see what people want from him. Consider the facts:
He has been surrounded by kids
He has, I think, a rather erratic and impetuous, back 4 to protect
He has no consistent wide players making intelligent runs
He has the most difficult role in the team as he is expected to protect the back 4, break up opponents attacks, cover erratic wide midfielders, start every attack. On top of this he gets criticised if he is not popping up on the edge of their box and shooting.
Too much for one man. Too much criticism of our senior players. There are simply not enough of them.
Our lack of numbers has been one of the most crucial factors in our poor season. The kids have, quite rightly, escaped much criticism as they are raw and lack experience. But it follows that it is harsh to blame the handful of experienced players for the shortcomings of the squad.

dadgad · Apr 20, 2012

Good post, coupled with all of the above he hasn't looked 100% fit for much of season.
Another case of unreasonable expectations, I'm afraid.

bcfcjosh · Apr 22, 2012

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Ourselves and Portsmouth have the smallest squads, and we have been operating with ours all season long. The telling statistic was that you were able to call in 6 players to freshen up your team before Easter Monday, and were able to make further additions before the loan window shut. By contrast, we played a few players carrying knocks and have been at the bare bones stage practically all season long. It simply is not comparable-and if things are not looking so rosy, might I ask why you're building a new stadium? Appreciate it looks like I'm playing down your survival, but it seems clear to me-a properly run CCFC would be above you in the table.
All irrelevant anyway-we are where we are and that's that.

We aren't. Gone to a third judicial review. Rumours that our backer is pulling out and that would leave us high and dry. I'm not going to compare situations but we got players back before Easter, and that coupled with some outstanding loan moves is the only reason why we stayed up.

Recyclops · Apr 22, 2012

dont know if you realised but we're already in league one mate

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