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Israel - Palestinian Conflict (5 Viewers)

  • Thread starter napolimp
  • Start date Oct 9, 2023
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duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,781
messiahrobins said:
No she did not. I have utterly embarrassed you which was not my intent, i just was seeking to educate you as to how lawyers operate.
Click to expand...

Direct quote from her website Suella Braverman MP :

"I worked at the Bar for 10years (sic), specialising in Planning Law and Judicial Review."

Is the problem that you can't read, or that you're too lazy to bother?

I'm not trying to embarrass you either. I don't think you're capable of that level of self-reflection - if you were you wouldn't post such unmitigated rubbish.
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,782
shmmeee said:
Being left wing is being authoritarian. There ain’t no invisible hand of economic justice.
Click to expand...

Probably not for this thread, but I think it's entirely possible to be left wing and broadly libertarian. Controlling the worst excesses of capitalism is more about regulation of business and redistributive policies than removing individual rights, surely.

The Political Compass website has a bit on this, from memory.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,783
duffer said:
Probably not for this thread, but I think it's entirely possible to be left wing and broadly libertarian. Controlling the worst excesses of capitalism is more about regulation of business and redistributive policies than removing individual rights, surely.

The Political Compass website has a bit on this, from memory.
Click to expand...

Business rights are individual rights on a base level. Being left wing is generally a belief that people need coercing by the state into universally beneficial actions, I agree with that generally. Greed is a powerful tool, but needs curbing. That goes beyond big business. The traditional left wing position on immigration is one of state control of borders to protect domestic worker wages. Sugar tax, smoking regulation, state education, all removing individual rights for the collective good.

We get around it by framing it as a freedom argument cos that’s popular, I can’t be free if you’re given untrammelled freedom sort of thing. But fundamentally the question is do we want to fix things with the law? If so you’re left wing by definition.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,784
'The Nazis were socialists' is one of the thickest takes ever posted on here.

I'd love to see this article by the 'balanced' Andrew Neil.
 
Reactions: Grendel and Ian1779

duffer

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,785
shmmeee said:
Business rights are individual rights on a base level. Being left wing is generally a belief that people need coercing by the state into universally beneficial actions, I agree with that generally. Greed is a powerful tool, but needs curbing. That goes beyond big business. The traditional left wing position on immigration is one of state control of borders to protect domestic worker wages. Sugar tax, smoking regulation, state education, all removing individual rights for the collective good.

We get around it by framing it as a freedom argument cos that’s popular, I can’t be free if you’re given untrammelled freedom sort of thing. But fundamentally the question is do we want to fix things with the law? If so you’re left wing by definition.
Click to expand...

Well argued, but I think where we differ is in the definition of authoritarian.

I think the typical definition of authoritarian goes way beyond sugar tax, for example and into the realms of suppressing democracy and individual rights. Taxing sugar, or cigarettes, or booze, isn't the same as saying you can't have them, and it's not just left wing governments that take those steps.

As an aside, I'm not sure that's necessarily a 'traditional' left wing view on immigration either - in my day we were accused of being internationalists, from memory.

Regardless, I accept we differ on this and don't want to divert the thread too much... (too late!).
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,786
duffer said:
Well argued, but I think where we differ is in the definition of authoritarian.

I think the typical definition of authoritarian goes way beyond sugar tax, for example and into the realms of suppressing democracy and individual rights. Taxing sugar, or cigarettes, or booze, isn't the same as saying you can't have them, and it's not just left wing governments that take those steps.

As an aside, I'm not sure that's necessarily a 'traditional' left wing view on immigration either - in my day we were accused of being internationalists, from memory.

Regardless, I accept we differ on this and don't want to divert the thread too much... (too late!).
Click to expand...

It’s very much the corbynite position on immigration.

I think you’re right, it’s become a word for the more extreme fringes but on a binary scale the majority of left wing positions are of a more authoritarian than libertarian persuasion. Even if it’s only slightly beyond center.

I think we talk too much about social issues that really are outside the remit of parliamentary politics and yeah on these most progressive positions are liberal. But left wing for me is an economic descriptor, and in economics trends towards government intervention over liberalism by definition.
 
Reactions: duffer

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,787
PVA said:
'The Nazis were socialists' is one of the thickest takes ever posted on here.

I'd love to see this article by the 'balanced' Andrew Neil.
Click to expand...

Was the Chinese communist party under Chairman Mao socialist?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,788
Grendel said:
Was the Chinese communist party under Chairman Mao socialist?
Click to expand...
It was totalitarian
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,789
Grendel said:
Was the Chinese communist party under Chairman Mao socialist?
Click to expand...

Oh of course Mr Contrarian thinks the Nazis were Socialists. Obviously.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,790
PVA said:
Oh of course Mr Contrarian thinks the Nazis were Socialists. Obviously.
Click to expand...

i don’t think I’ve past judgement but I’d be fascinated to know how you would define socialism
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,791
Brighton Sky Blue said:
It was totalitarian
Click to expand...

As are every anti capitalist societies - Mussolini was considered by many historians to be a socialist
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,792
Grendel said:
i don’t think I’ve past judgement but I’d be fascinated to know how you would define socialism
Click to expand...

Hope this helps
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,793
Grendel said:
As are every anti capitalist societies - Mussolini was considered by many historians to be a socialist
Click to expand...
Mussolini and Hitler for that matter were both famously pro capitalism as they believed it to be the driving force of industry and technology. Mussolini wasn’t the least bit interested in class war and the only person who considered him a socialist was himself. Like the Nazis it was window dressing and a faux claim to be socialist because they wanted to appeal to the working classes while trying to gain power.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,794
PVA said:
Hope this helps
Click to expand...

Not really as I asked in your view what defines socialism. There is only really one fundamental difference between the two

The funny thing is socialism is ideologically opposed to federal conglomerate states such as the EU

So sorry you made a comment and cannot back it up.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,795
Grendel said:
As are every anti capitalist societies - Mussolini was considered by many historians to be a socialist
Click to expand...
He was a literal fascist which anyone would consider to be far right.
 
Reactions: PVA

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,796
Brighton Sky Blue said:
He was a literal fascist which anyone would consider to be far right.
Click to expand...

There is little difference to actual socialism which is far left. Socialism has principally only one real difference.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,797
Grendel said:
So sorry you made a comment and cannot back it up.
Click to expand...

That Nazis weren't socialists?

I mean that doesn't really take much backing up.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,798
PVA said:
That Nazis weren't socialists?

I mean that doesn't really take much backing up.
Click to expand...

No I am asking you what is the principle definition of socialism - not a wiki link but what is it?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,799
Grendel said:
No I am asking you what is the principle definition of socialism - not a wiki link but what is it?
Click to expand...
Where the state controls the means of production
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,800
Grendel said:
No I am asking you what is the principle definition of socialism - not a wiki link but what is it?
Click to expand...

So I haven't made a statement that I can't back up. Glad we agree.

The Nazis were not socialists and neither was Mussolini (when in power). That's really all there is to it.

Every sane person in history agrees. Obviously you disagree.

I'm not carrying on an argument where someone disagrees that the Nazis weren't socialists, it's absurd, so I'll leave you to it.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,801
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Where the state controls the means of production
Click to expand...

Exactly - which is a denouncement of capitalism and therefore essentially is authoritarian

The only real difference between actual socialism and fascism is that the fascist ideology does not control the means but does control the private ownership of capital through state control, anti

Both are anti capitalist and anti democracy as democracy would mean potential change
 
M

messiahrobins

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,802
duffer said:
Direct quote from her website Suella Braverman MP :

"I worked at the Bar for 10years (sic), specialising in Planning Law and Judicial Review."

Is the problem that you can't read, or that you're too lazy to bother?

I'm not trying to embarrass you either. I don't think you're capable of that level of self-reflection - if you were you wouldn't post such unmitigated rubbish.
Click to expand...
Judicial Law isn't an area of law lol, it is part of Public Law which she specialises in. It is like saying a contract lawyer specialises in Consideration lol. Meaningless.
 
M

messiahrobins

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,803
Sick Boy said:
Apart from you actually said “you either support Israel or Nazis.” Obviously he doesn’t support Hamas but he doesn’t support Israel; so what is he?
Click to expand...
Woke. It is a binary choice, there is no fence sitting. Pick a side.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,804
PVA said:
So I haven't made a statement that I can't back up. Glad we agree.

The Nazis were not socialists and neither was Mussolini (when in power). That's really all there is to it.

Every sane person in history agrees. Obviously you disagree.

I'm not carrying on an argument where someone disagrees that the Nazis weren't socialists, it's absurd, so I'll leave you to it.
Click to expand...

Well you cannot answer as you do not comprehend the ideology of socialism. Do you consider Chairman Mao a socialist?
 
Reactions: messiahrobins
M

messiahrobins

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,805
Ian1779 said:
I think messiahrobins may be Marjorie Taylor Greene in the real world.
Click to expand...
I love her. I genuinely asked her for a date on X. Yet to have a reply. She hot as well, added bonus.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,806
Grendel said:
Exactly - which is a denouncement of capitalism and therefore essentially is authoritarian

The only real difference between actual socialism and fascism is that the fascist ideology does not control the means but does control the private ownership of capital through state control, anti

Both are anti capitalist and anti democracy as democracy would mean potential change
Click to expand...
I agree it’s anti capitalist, I disagree that there is only one difference between it and socialism.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,807
Grendel said:
The only real difference between actual socialism and fascism is that the fascist ideology does not control the means but does control the private ownership of capital through state control
Click to expand...

We're not talking about the difference between socialism and fascism, it's the difference between socialism and the Nazis.

And clearly there is more than just that one difference between the two ffs.


Utterly absurd.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,808
PVA said:
We're not talking about the difference between socialism and fascism, it's the difference between socialism and the Nazis.

And clearly there is more than just that one difference between the two ffs.


Utterly absurd.
Click to expand...

So how did the Mao and the Stalin administrations differ from the Nazi administration?

Was Oswald Moseley a Nazi?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,809
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I agree it’s anti capitalist, I disagree that there is only one difference between it and socialism.
Click to expand...

Would you say Michael Foot was in reality a Socialist in principal but operating in a capitalist society?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,810
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I agree it’s anti capitalist, I disagree that there is only one difference between it and socialism.
Click to expand...

Both operate on a nationalist doctrine, are isolationist and anti immigration
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,811
"The Nazis were not socialist"

"but but Stalin, Mao, Mussolini. And Michael Foot. I am clever."
 
Reactions: Grendel

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,812
messiahrobins said:
Judicial Law isn't an area of law lol, it is part of Public Law which she specialises in. It is like saying a contract lawyer specialises in Consideration lol. Meaningless.
Click to expand...
Judicial law doesn't even make sense, what are you on about?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: messiahrobins

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,813
PVA said:
"The Nazis were not socialist"

"but but Stalin, Mao, Mussolini. Michael Foot. I am clever."
Click to expand...

I have asked what is the difference and why you believe you are more knowledgeable than Andrew Neil
 
Reactions: PVA
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,814
Grendel said:
Would you say Michael Foot was in reality a Socialist in principal but operating in a capitalist society?
Click to expand...
Honest enough to say I don’t know enough about him.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Apr 9, 2024
  • #3,815
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Honest enough to say I don’t know enough about him.
Click to expand...

I think he was

Michael Foot: Ninety six years in the life of a passionate English radical

An incorrigible rebel, the former Labour leader failed politically but always followed his mighty heart
www.theguardian.com
 
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