Interesting statistic (2 Viewers)

Astute · Jul 22, 2012

Astronomical interest rates? Still not seen any:thinking about:

Not disagreeing with a loan in place and interest being payable. I said nothing against that. You made out as though SISU were ripped off with interest charges. It was no Wonga loan. If you work out what you have put down, and I have no idea where it has come from, not interested either, tell me how you can go on about extortionate interest rates? What rate or above do you call extortionate? Should he have just said "Here is my money, give it me back when you have it? Don't want the interest I could get elsewhere"

Jack Griffin · Jul 22, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Since Thorn's been at the club, here's an analysis of transfers in, compared with transfers out (the latter including players released, etc.). Makes you realise how reliant we have become on bringing youngsters through the academy.

08/09: 8 players signed, 15 transferred out / released
09/10: 7 players signed, 16 transferred out / released
10/11: 9 players signed, 11 transferred out / released
11/12: 4 players signed, 14 transferred out / released

I can't be 100% sure of the numbers in any given season as sources via the Internet aren't always reliable, but names and numbers and the overall narrative looks about right. A such, it looks like 28 players coming in and 56 leaving. A ratio of 2:1 over a four-season duration

.. do remember that a large percentage of youth players get released every year, not only here, but at all clubs.

I agree the squad has been made smaller, but it is still going to be in the region of 20-25 professionals this season is it not.. not what we would like but all we can expect TBH.

lordsummerisle · Jul 22, 2012

Astute said:
Astronomical interest rates? Still not seen any:thinking about:

Not disagreeing with a loan in place and interest being payable. I said nothing against that. You made out as though SISU were ripped off with interest charges. It was no Wonga loan. If you work out what you have put down, and I have no idea where it has come from, not interested either, tell me how you can go on about extortionate interest rates? What rate or above do you call extortionate? Should he have just said "Here is my money, give it me back when you have it? Don't want the interest I could get elsewhere"

If RR could have got approx 16% interest(at a guess, you could have a go at working it out for yourself, but may be a bit too much work for you), on his loan from anywhere else, I'd love to hear where from?

Especially now Bernard Madoff has been put away for several lifetimes.

What exactly was the loan required for at the club? £1.5million wouldn't go too far into the bottomless pit he had mismanaged us into.

It was a loan placed merely to pay him rates of interest he couldn't get elsewhere, money which came out of the club, and into his back pocket.

Football clubs very prone to it,and doesn't do them any good, so much so the Parliamentary All Party Report on Football Governance has this to say

"Directors Loans
A further area of concern is the practice of new directors loaning the club money as an
investment instead of investing in shares. An investment in shares is a more stable
format of investment that also encourages the director to make sure the club is run
successfully or their investment will de-value. Whilst making a sizeable loan may be an
important source of income for a club in the short term, increasing debt cannot be a
long-term strategy and needs to be discouraged where the loan is unnecessary and
only focused on short-term gains. We recommend that the practice of directors
loaning money to clubs is considered as part of the reformed Fit and Proper
Persons Test in the same vein as the practice of debt leveraging"

Astute · Jul 22, 2012

Go back to school if you think it works out at 16%apr

lordsummerisle · Jul 22, 2012

Astute said:
Go back to school if you think it works out at 16%apr

If paid yearly interest on a £1.5million loan over 3 years at 16%, total interest paid wouild be £503,660, which as OSB has guessed at the last years interest to bring it down lower than previous years(possibly as the loan term cut short), then the £440,000 interest paid would be approximate to the 16% APR I came up with earlier.

What figure would you have it at?

Astute · Jul 22, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
If paid yearly interest on a £1.5million loan over 3 years at 16%, total interest paid wouild be £503,660, which as OSB has guessed at the last years interest to bring it down lower than previous years(possibly as the loan term cut short), then the £440,000 interest paid would be approximate to the 16% APR I came up with earlier.

What figure would you have it at?

I am at work tonight and in morning will be seeing off eldest son as he leaves to join army. Will then spend time with wife as she will be upset. Will then digest all info and maybe do a bit of digging. There is no way SISU will have paid so much in intetest. Did any payment include fees or profits from pro zone?

BTW less of the snide comments. I am not a little boy. Some people might not mind them. Do you want a sensible debate or yet another slanging match?

Grendel · Jul 22, 2012

Astute said:
I am at work tonight and in morning will be seeing off eldest son as he leaves to join army. Will then spend time with wife as she will be upset. Will then digest all info and maybe do a bit of digging. There is no way SISU will have paid so much in intetest. Did any payment include fees or profits from pro zone?

BTW less of the snide comments. I am not a little boy. Some people might not mind them. Do you want a sensible debate or yet another slanging match?

I think the general inference behind the rhetoric is that this was a way of ranson obtaining a significant additional "bonus" above whatever salary he received. This would be entirely plausible and would explain his desire to take the club on regardless of it's apparant issues.
I did a lot of work in Hampshire at the time and Southampton were the desired choice. They had already had a dose of Ken and were practically singing in the streets when they rejected them.

lordsummerisle · Jul 22, 2012

Astute said:
I am at work tonight and in morning will be seeing off eldest son as he leaves to join army. Will then spend time with wife as she will be upset. Will then digest all info and maybe do a bit of digging. There is no way SISU will have paid so much in intetest. Did any payment include fees or profits from pro zone?

BTW less of the snide comments. I am not a little boy. Some people might not mind them. Do you want a sensible debate or yet another slanging match?

The information on interest payments and other fees paid to RR are all on this site, as I pointed out to you. OSB has also done a good analysis on Pro-zone, which should change the commonly held view on how valuable to us it was.

Talking of snide, do i still need to go to school, or are my old teachers safe in their retirement?

Good luck to your son, spent 9 years in the forces myself, but thankfully out before any of the Afghanistan crap, got friends still in who've been out there a few times, and not at all nice by all accounts.

The cold war was so much easier back in the day, three years getting pissed on very cheap, very good German beer!

Still, all the girls love a man in uniform, so he'll find some compensations!

Astute · Jul 22, 2012

His best mate has just gone back to Afganistan. He wants to go and do his bit fir our country, although we shouldn't be there in ny view.

You still want to wipe my @rse? ;-)

lordsummerisle · Jul 22, 2012

Astute said:
His best mate has just gone back to Afganistan. He wants to go and do his bit fir our country, although we shouldn't be there in ny view.

You still want to wipe my @rse? ;-)

Just thought that you were being particularly lazy in demanding the facts and figures, and after being told where they were on this very website, still not looking for them yourself.

You may have misunderstood though that they were so easily accessible.

People not being willing to research background on things and just take things as read do annoy me a little though.

Generally the ones that scream blue murderthe loudest when the shit does hit the fan, when the facts have been available all along.

Besides that, good luck to your son.

Astute · Jul 22, 2012

I was getting ready for work and tryong to keep my 2 and 3 year olds happy as daddy had his work uniform on. They know what that means. They still want playtime. Everything comes second to my kids, even the wife

Astute · Jul 22, 2012

And cheers for messages for son. He is a big lad and can look after himself. Told wife it is better for us to let 1 of our kids go as we have 7, not like sone who lose their only child. It was only then she accepted it.

lordsummerisle · Jul 22, 2012

Astute said:
And cheers for messages for son. He is a big lad and can look after himself. Told wife it is better for us to let 1 of our kids go as we have 7, not like sone who lose their only child. It was only then she accepted it.

To be fair, that is a bit morbid!

Astute · Jul 22, 2012

She wouldn't let him join. He wouldn't go against her wishes. She has last say with kids. He may be 23 but all our kids been brought up to respect their elders and listen to yheir mother

Macca · Jul 22, 2012

Good luck to the lad as well from me. Couldn't disagree more with us being there but that's not the fault of the guys and girls doing the work

Astute · Jul 23, 2012

Cheers Macca. Will have to do his training first. That starts tomorrow. He won't be getting a ST with Motherwell this season and will miss out on their European games

dongonzalos · Jul 23, 2012

skybluedaze said:
He will get the team promoted, but i don't think he's the right man to take the club forward after that. I would accept second or even third spot after the first few months, but anything lower than that he's got to go. I don't think this will be the case, he'll be ideal for League 1.

I was been sarcastic, however you sincerely have this view. This is what you have to love about footey. Brings out do many different views

Astute · Jul 23, 2012

dongonzalos said:
I was been sarcastic, however you sincerely have this view. This is what you have to love about footey. Brings out do many different views

And it brings out the idiot in most of us in many different ways

Astute · Jul 24, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
Prozone Group has had NO trading activity in the years to 31/05 2009,2010 or 2011... so no profits there to contribute. Interestingly that company did owe £1,563,141 to SBS&L as at 31/05/11 the company and its debt were acquired on 07/06/11 by SUP SAS. That I take to mean that SUP repaid the £1.5m to SBS&L and took on the debt that Prozone Group owed themselves. The other side of this is £1,563,141 was then owed by SBS&L to Arley Group PLC (owned by RR)..... would guess this is the value of Prozone to RR when he brought it in to the party (debt matches a liability)

Prozone Sports Limited, appears to be the only trading entity. In 2009 it made £312k in 2010 £205K and in 2011 it lost £73k..... so no great positives to SBS&L there. At 31/05/11 PSL had accumulated £2m in tax losses. Which suggests it never was that profitable
At 31/05/11 PSL owed SBS&L £2.2m. That debt was also transferred to SUP on 07/06/11. I assume SBS&L received payment for this amount on the transfer
It provided £80K pa in sports analysis services to CCFC and CCFC owed PSL £93k at 31/05/11
It paid Arley Group PLC the following amounts for RR's services 2009 £69K 2010 £75k and 2011 £123k. During those same years Arley Group invoiced CCFC H for RR's services 2008 £169k 2009 £226K 2010 £228K 2011 No details given but guess at £190k

interest accrued on SBS&L debt to Arley Group (RR) 2009 £154K 2010 £156K 2011 £130k (guess because no details in 2011 accounts)

Thoughts .....

07/06/11 SBS&L shifted some debt on by transferring the PG £1.5m to someone else so that meant it either repaid Arley or SUP now owed Arley. Either way SBS&L lost an asset and an equal value liability from its balance sheet
07/06/11 it looks like SBS&L got repaid by or is owed by SUP £2.2m but it also means that of the £29.7m put into SBS&L by SISU that at least 2.2m went into PSL

RR or Arley have taken from the SBS&L Group (including CCFC) £1,080k for RR's services, £440K in interest and repaid £1.5m in just over 3 years.

Have seen it said that RR had the right idea..... but clearly he let the overheads build and losses mount. We never could have afforded to bring in the likes of Carroll, Henderson etc unless that brought immediate success which in turn enhanced the individual sell value..... that was not guaranteed and both players could have disappeared in the championship if with us.

Have seen it said that he based it on youth, maybe but it was bought in youth not from our academy. Our academy was decent enough long before he came and wasnt he considering shutting it at one point ? (might be wrong on that). It is great having a plan but it has to be affordable.

In the meantime it looks to me that RR was pretty well rewarded and that Prozone didnt actually bring that much to the group until we got the sales preceeds (and we cant be sure of that value).

Just how good was RR and his Board of Directors for CCFC?

Ok .... thats off my chest ..... back to the football [/INDENT]

I have much respect for OSB. But as he said it was an educated guess. I have been digging about, and there is nothing about interest payable anywhere. The only thing I can see is the amount of money said to be the interest payable is the same as the profit from Prozone in the 3 years stated where interest was payable. Now this couldn't be made by interest payments as 2011 was a loss of 73k. Just strange that RR brought Prozone to the club as his equity it seems, then walks away with his money plus the profits for the 2 1/2 years as stated.

I can't say on an open forum what I would like to, but it looks like something fishy went on there.

lordsummerisle · Jul 24, 2012

Astute,

The interest on the £1.5million loan to RR(through his Arley group)was shown in the previous years accounts for 2009 and 2010, think OSB only took a guess at the 2011 figure.

Think that the loan is seperate to Pro-zone, in fact RR(through Arley group), was getting paid by both SBS@L, and Prozone(through SBS@L), and the club was also paying £80,000 a year to Pro-zone for it's services! He seemed to be able to get paid several times over, whilst the club got deeper and deeper in debt, and less and less competitive on the field as a consequence.

Must have more money than I have thought, as well as being able to "loan" £1.5million to us, at the same time he was able to loan £3.5million to one of our Championship rivals to buy players!

Loans. Much is discussed about the SISU and other loans. Here are the facts as have so far been made available. On takeover the net liabilities of the group were discounted down by £35m leaving net debts of £8m for SISU to fund plus £3m losses from takeover until 31/05/08. By 31/05/08 they had provided a loan of £11m, this money loaned to the company to pay its debts. During the year to 31/05/09 these loans to SBS&L had risen by £12.4m to £23.4m. A further £700k was provided in 2010. Not all of that cash came to CCFC some would have covered the June 2008 acquisition of Prozone Group and funding its liabilities. Bear in mind that the funding SISU investors provide are loans to SBS&L that doesnt mean it all filters down to CCFC Ltd although because of cash flow difficulties much will have. RR was able to say we dont owe any banks but neglected to make clear we sure as hell owed SISU – we were never debt free as claimed. In fact there was £1.5m owed to RR’s own company Arley Group PLC in addition to SISU loans. The SISU loans do not charge interest those from Arley Group PLC did £153745 (2009) £310059 (2010)

wingy · Jul 24, 2012

Am of the opinion that RRs history at Leeds and elsewhere may have implications on how our transfer activity was funded .When LUFC spent their £60M. under Ridsdale and O'leary Our mate was heavily involved enabling them To borrow back their initial outlay against those players,like a lease back ,which has implications as to third party ownership.This has had me speculating over similar third party involvement re;City players to Cardiff .Now Lord,OSB is it Concievable that those interest payments could relate to that kind of affair

lordsummerisle · Jul 24, 2012

wingy said:
Am of the opinion that RRs history at Leeds and elsewhere may have implications on how our transfer activity was funded .When LUFC spent their £60M. under Ridsdale and O'leary Our mate was heavily involved enabling them To borrow back their initial outlay against those players,like a lease back ,which has implications as to third party ownership.This has had me speculating over similar third party involvement re;City players to Cardiff .Now Lord,OSB is it Concievable that those interest payments could relate to that kind of affair

Don't think so, as didn't notice any mention of Sports Asset Capital which is Ray Ranson's Cayman Islands Hedge Fund which made the loan to Cardiff.

Strangely enough Ranson resigned as Coventry Chairman around the same time that the Football league started looking into his dealings with Cardiff whilst still being Chairman of one of their rivals.

Though some would have it that he resigned just because of Sisu not "backing the plan and the man".

wingy · Jul 24, 2012

Yeah I'm with you on that one Lord,But as the SAC thing and its existence came up at around the time of his exit ,without knowing the ins and outs of Arley or a subsidory ? It could explain such high interest payments,And the anomoly of him appearing to take interest while Sisu did'nt

lordsummerisle · Jul 24, 2012

wingy said:
Yeah I'm with you on that one Lord,But as the SAC thing and its existence came up at around the time of his exit ,without knowing the ins and outs of Arley or a subsidory ? It could explain such high interest payments,And the anomoly of him appearing to take interest while Sisu did'nt

Possibly just nodded through by his fellow board members, along with other remuneration packages.

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