Interesting series of Tweets regarding the finances of League One clubs (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter CovInEssex
- Start date
CovInEssex
Well-Known Member
Is that overall, not just players ,ours shows 83% but was realistically 45-50%.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Why do you say that wingy?
Kept tabs on it over the last four or five years fp .
Realistically that's is what our Player wages are as a percentage on turnover ,think it will be lower this year.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Without checking his figures I'd assume he's just taking what is listed as wages in each clubs accounts but that includes every employee of the club not just the players. The lower down the leagues you go the more significant it becomes as you could easily have chief execs earning a lot more than most players, not going to happen in the PL.
Not strictly my angle Dave
More about what our turnover would need to be to pay out 55or 60% on player salaries .
Not That we must ,what is the gap, where does it need to be to Achieve that .
Then how are we going to as it seems quite sizable, not sure matchday or Stadium ownership would do it?
AFCCOVENTRY
Well-Known Member
Looks like Coventry are technically on a more sustainable financial footing. Half those clubs are playing with fire.
AFCCOVENTRY
Well-Known Member
Also I'm no Sisu lover or Fisher fan, but as a business you can't spend more than you earn. It's financial suicide. Football has been ruined by money and clubs becoming unstable because of it. We have suffered for that very reason.
We've gone through a lot of pain as fans with our club but I do feel with a better footing than other clubs in the league (we don't have millions to spend on players) but a healthier business model means we can be more sensible. Getting out of L2 and with a bit of momentum it does feel like the club is turning this around.
In Fishers own words, "why would Sisu sell unless the club is on the up?"
We've gone through a lot of pain as fans with our club but I do feel with a better footing than other clubs in the league (we don't have millions to spend on players) but a healthier business model means we can be more sensible. Getting out of L2 and with a bit of momentum it does feel like the club is turning this around.
In Fishers own words, "why would Sisu sell unless the club is on the up?"
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Yes but as long as the likes of Bournemouth and Wolves can gamble and get away with it then there will always be some who keep trying. Time for an absolute cap on transfer/wage expenditure by division to keep this contained.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
That’s against EU legislation surely?
tisza
Well-Known Member
Doubt it. No business should be allowed to damage its employees by gambling with their future. It is not sound business practice to rely on shareholders loans. Been a couple of clubs got in a right mess when owner died and heirs didn't want to carry on and wanted the money back.
Sport does have certain leeway under EU law anyway. Also a grey area if you are deliberately spending more than you can afford. if you can't pay your creditors then in some EU countries that is considered fraud.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
They've had it in rugby for ages don't see any problem with it from a legal perspective.
HuckerbyDublinWhelan
Well-Known Member
Am I the only one shocked that our wage bill was £4.5 million and we were breaching the SCMP
speedie87
Well-Known Member
Might not have been breaking the salary cap as the wage figure may include players whose salaries don’t count, think its home grown players under 23 and the figure as someone else said may include exec pay
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
There’s a salary cap in Rugby. Don’t recall the EU getting involved at any point because it was against EU legislation.
skybluesam66
Well-Known Member
wont need to worry about that for too long then
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
How does that rugby salary cap work? Is it absolute or a % of turnover?
tisza
Well-Known Member
It's a bit of a mish-mash. There's a cap but there is an allowance for academy graduates and it seems you can exclude 2 players from the cap and seemingly pay them what you want.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Brighton suggested individual wage freezes and caps for individuals. That’s nothing like what rugby have which is more like FFP regulations
scottccfc
Well-Known Member
and you get a "rebate" back from the RFU for and English qualified players that have been selected to play for England. The cap in this country is around £4 million a year
Covstu
Well-Known Member
Hmm not so sure myself, look at those loans and with that is interest.... they have steadied the ship in terms of operating costs but we are still paying heavily for that £30M+ debt
Covstu
Well-Known Member
Villa being the recent example.... Gamble to get back in the prem and when that doesn't happen they are up shit creek.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Rugby salary cap is a flat rate (£7M as season IIRC) regardless of turnover. FFP is a percentage of turnover. So they’re nothing alike
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Interesting data but not really unexpected is it? .
CCFC should reasonably expect to be mid table next season when it comes to incomes, based on the 2017 (6.1m) turnover when we were last in L1. That bodes well in terms of competing in that division. It wasn't too far off the average for the division, get off to a good start and that can be achieved. But the figures get distorted by the big hitters and will do next season with Sunderland in there
Operating losses are only sustainable if a clubs owners are prepared to stump up or income from player sales is brought in to it. We still lost 1.1m (operating losses) but the actual full loss was 2.7m.
Losses still have to be paid for somewhere down the line. We don't carry much in the way of assets so there is not a large depreciation charge that other clubs may have. So are we comparing like with like. Depreciation being an accounting adjustment and is not a movement of hard cash but it affects the overall profit or loss. Do all clubs have a Cat 2 academy - a net outlay of £600k + is a big outlay for any L2 club (but the otherside to that is the improved player sales revenue)
Always wary of comparing figures without looking at what lies beneath. For instance some clubs don't show transfer dealings separately like we do, its included in turnover and operating costs. Some clubs have large interest liabilities others do not
Walsall have broken even in every year in something like 20 years except one. The concern for Walsall is for the last couple of years at least is that they have had negative cash flow. Not sure why he thinks the Bantams accounts are the worst he has seen, haven't spent much time checking but they seem to comply with the law - perhaps it is because they don't give lots of information, which is because they filed abridged accounts and legally do not have to ......... oh and they actually show a total surplus year on year
Specific to CCFC I am not sure where he gets the following
- wages and weekly wages figures it isn't broken down in either Otium or SBS&L accounts but employee type is
- That we had no player purchases in the year ..... there was 75k (not a lot admittedly) looks like he corrected later
- the club is Otium so why include the loans SBS&L owe giving a total of 37m ............... total creditors are 19m with loans of £14m including interest...... there is no charge on Otium that means it has to pay SBS&L debts
- in any case using his figures total debt is £202m for L1 in total ....... which is scarey yes but also incorrect (see previous point)
- why the insistence on looking at operating profit...... yes Charlton had an operating loss of £14m but after player sales they made a profit for the year in total of 1.1m. Player trading is part of operating a football club isn't it?
The wages costs on his spread sheet are for the whole of Otium ....... including 129 players and management, 11 admin & commercial staff and 258 stewards
The biggest worries for most teams outside the Premier League is that the owners decide to stop supporting the club financially (or worse) and the cash flow available...... it isn't really about profit in the mad football world
The general points are fine ............... proper financial control in football is a nonsense I agree, most clubs are in trouble I agree, wage costs are the biggest danger I agree and the level of debt is only sustainable so long as owners do not call it in again I agree
The specific points ........... well I think you have to look behind the figures to get to proper comparatives between clubs....... certainly figures quoted for CCFC are misleading and that actually is not helpful
CCFC should reasonably expect to be mid table next season when it comes to incomes, based on the 2017 (6.1m) turnover when we were last in L1. That bodes well in terms of competing in that division. It wasn't too far off the average for the division, get off to a good start and that can be achieved. But the figures get distorted by the big hitters and will do next season with Sunderland in there
Operating losses are only sustainable if a clubs owners are prepared to stump up or income from player sales is brought in to it. We still lost 1.1m (operating losses) but the actual full loss was 2.7m.
Losses still have to be paid for somewhere down the line. We don't carry much in the way of assets so there is not a large depreciation charge that other clubs may have. So are we comparing like with like. Depreciation being an accounting adjustment and is not a movement of hard cash but it affects the overall profit or loss. Do all clubs have a Cat 2 academy - a net outlay of £600k + is a big outlay for any L2 club (but the otherside to that is the improved player sales revenue)
Always wary of comparing figures without looking at what lies beneath. For instance some clubs don't show transfer dealings separately like we do, its included in turnover and operating costs. Some clubs have large interest liabilities others do not
Walsall have broken even in every year in something like 20 years except one. The concern for Walsall is for the last couple of years at least is that they have had negative cash flow. Not sure why he thinks the Bantams accounts are the worst he has seen, haven't spent much time checking but they seem to comply with the law - perhaps it is because they don't give lots of information, which is because they filed abridged accounts and legally do not have to ......... oh and they actually show a total surplus year on year
Specific to CCFC I am not sure where he gets the following
- wages and weekly wages figures it isn't broken down in either Otium or SBS&L accounts but employee type is
- That we had no player purchases in the year ..... there was 75k (not a lot admittedly) looks like he corrected later
- the club is Otium so why include the loans SBS&L owe giving a total of 37m ............... total creditors are 19m with loans of £14m including interest...... there is no charge on Otium that means it has to pay SBS&L debts
- in any case using his figures total debt is £202m for L1 in total ....... which is scarey yes but also incorrect (see previous point)
- why the insistence on looking at operating profit...... yes Charlton had an operating loss of £14m but after player sales they made a profit for the year in total of 1.1m. Player trading is part of operating a football club isn't it?
The wages costs on his spread sheet are for the whole of Otium ....... including 129 players and management, 11 admin & commercial staff and 258 stewards
The biggest worries for most teams outside the Premier League is that the owners decide to stop supporting the club financially (or worse) and the cash flow available...... it isn't really about profit in the mad football world
The general points are fine ............... proper financial control in football is a nonsense I agree, most clubs are in trouble I agree, wage costs are the biggest danger I agree and the level of debt is only sustainable so long as owners do not call it in again I agree
The specific points ........... well I think you have to look behind the figures to get to proper comparatives between clubs....... certainly figures quoted for CCFC are misleading and that actually is not helpful
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
It is as it’s a total wage cap not a cap on individuals
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Happened to us after Coleman wasted his budget 2 years in a row.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant whole wage/transfer caps, just done on an absolute rather than % basis.
