If jr ges against ccc (1 Viewer)

wingy · Dec 2, 2013

Just a thought re the JR.

Put this in a thread where some wildly optimistic assumptions were being made over

a)Benefits to the club over income for the Club re:Construction of New Stadium.

b)The Widely assumed position of a CCC failure in the JR ,where all is lost and SISU pick up all for not a lot.

Given that upon completion of the RICOH ACL assumed the running on a rental basis @£900K. per an ,would they not be able to simply revert to that

arrangement.

Failing that and the RICOH or ACL were to be Sold ,where is It a given that SISU are the only Takers??

RoboCCFC90 · Dec 2, 2013

I would be interested to know the outcome of the JR going against CCC, but foresite is not one of my super powers

lordsummerisle · Dec 2, 2013

RoboCCFC90 said:
I would be interested to know the outcome of the JR going against CCC, but foresite is not one of my super powers

Most people on here do.

The appeal was laughed out of court by the judge last week wasn't it?

Nick · Dec 2, 2013

A few people on here were fairly sure it would be laughed out of court...

wingy · Dec 2, 2013

Nick said:
A few people on here were fairly sure it would be laughed out of court...

Of course and yet may still be.

Nick · Dec 2, 2013

I hope it isn't mainly so that more things will be out in the open. Whether it is how bad SISU are, how bad the council are etc.

RoboCCFC90 · Dec 2, 2013

lordsummerisle said:
Most people on here do.

The appeal was laughed out of court by the judge last week wasn't it?

Nick said:
A few people on here were fairly sure it would be laughed out of court...

The same people who believe the mess we are in 100% the current owners' fault's?

wingy · Dec 2, 2013

Nick said:
I hope it isn't mainly so that more things will be out in the open. Whether it is how bad SISU are, how bad the council are etc.

Not really what I meant Nick ,more the result now Its going ahead,whether the outcome opens out the Information who knows?

Ashdown1 · Dec 2, 2013

Nick said:
I hope it isn't mainly so that more things will be out in the open. Whether it is how bad SISU are, how bad the council are etc.

You think SISU would be pressing this to encourage an examination of themselves FFS !

RFC · Dec 2, 2013

Ashdown1 said:
You think SISU would be pressing this to encourage an examination of themselves FFS !

Have I missed CCC 'Appealing' ? If the JR goes ahead it will be at enormous cost to the Council & it's Council Tax Payers, who I'm sure will not be happy about it.

Personally would expect negotiations and a 'settlement' out of Court.

Whatever the outcome I'm sure the owners will bring the Club back to Coventry (Ryton or anther preferred site!).

bigfatronssba · Dec 2, 2013

RFC said:
Have I missed CCC 'Appealing' ? If the JR goes ahead it will be at enormous cost to the Council & it's Council Tax Payers, who I'm sure will not be happy about it.

Personally would expect negotiations and a 'settlement' out of Court.

Whatever the outcome I'm sure the owners will bring the Club back to Coventry (Ryton or anther preferred site!).

Eh no that isn't actually true. If the Jr goes ahead sisu have to pay for it (well we all know in reality it will be you six fields lot that will be paying), council will only have to pay in the unlikely event of losing. Council just have to cover their own legal costs for now.

Ryton isn't Coventry is it mate?

RFC · Dec 2, 2013

You obviously haven't noticed that's where the Training Ground is, so what's the problem?

bigfatronssba · Dec 2, 2013

RFC said:
You obviously haven't noticed that's where the Training Ground is, so what's the problem?

Relevance?

OyJimmy · Dec 2, 2013

What happens if CCC lose? In such circumstances I would expect the judge to order ACL to repay the debt to the council and find a new investor. Which could lead to Sisu buying the Ricoh cheap or to another party buying it. Do Sisu have the capital to buy the entire ACL venture?

Hobo · Dec 2, 2013

None of you will realise how dirty and vindictive SISU can be until after the JR.

James Smith · Dec 2, 2013

OyJimmy said:
What happens if CCC lose? In such circumstances I would expect the judge to order ACL to repay the debt to the council and find a new investor. Which could lead to Sisu buying the Ricoh cheap or to another party buying it. Do Sisu have the capital to buy the entire ACL venture?

ACL repay the debt I think, however they could just go to a commercial lender and get a loan for the money they need to pay back the council. They could do this before the end of the Judicial Review and in doing so they are then totally unaffected by the Judicial Review outcome. None of which is getting us home to Coventry which should be the priority.

RFC said:
Have I missed CCC 'Appealing' ? If the JR goes ahead it will be at enormous cost to the Council & it's Council Tax Payers, who I'm sure will not be happy about it.

Personally would expect negotiations and a 'settlement' out of Court.

Whatever the outcome I'm sure the owners will bring the Club back to Coventry (Ryton or anther preferred site!).

Personally I'm hoping it goes the distance - same as Nick, if this means we get a full investigation into both parties conduct. If the council lose then the taxpayers lose and we're still no closer to a return to the city. If Sisu lose then they and/or their investors and/or even CCFC will be out of pocket meaning less funds for the new stadium and we're still no closer to a return to the city.

Depressing stuff!

TurkeyTrot · Dec 2, 2013

James Smith said:
ACL repay the debt I think, however they could just go to a commercial lender and get a loan for the money they need to pay back the council. They could do this before the end of the Judicial Review and in doing so they are then totally unaffected by the Judicial Review outcome. None of which is getting us home to Coventry which should be the priority.

Personally I'm hoping it goes the distance - same as Nick, if this means we get a full investigation into both parties conduct. If the council lose then the taxpayers lose and we're still no closer to a return to the city. If Sisu lose then they and/or their investors and/or even CCFC will be out of pocket meaning less funds for the new stadium and we're still no closer to a return to the city.

Depressing stuff!

If CCC lose, it will be on a legal technicality I would imagine.
ACL repay CCC back the monies borrowed to them.
CCC pay back the loan.
CCC borrow the money again from the same source complying with the legal technicalities and loan the Money to ACL.
ACL pay CCC the loan with a little bit on top.
Everyone is happy.

skybluefred · Dec 2, 2013

RFC said:
You obviously haven't noticed that's where the Training Ground is, so what's the problem?

You obviously haven't noticed the training ground is not in Coventry.Further more it does not have and will not get
planning permission IMHO.

:blue:

James Smith · Dec 2, 2013

TurkeyTrot said:
If CCC lose, it will be on a legal technicality I would imagine.
ACL repay CCC back the monies borrowed to them.
CCC pay back the loan.
CCC borrow the money again from the same source complying with the legal technicalities and loan the Money to ACL.
ACL pay CCC the loan with a little bit on top.
Everyone is happy.

Except possibly RFC and true skyblue

Deleted member 5849 · Dec 2, 2013

skybluefred said:
You obviously haven't noticed the training ground is not in Coventry.Further more it does not have and will not get
planning permission IMHO.

You'll be reassured to know 3 massive warehouses just started going up on the spare land around the old Peugeot factory anyway, so not an option in the slightest.

swanageskyblue · Dec 2, 2013

Hobo said:
None of you will realise how dirty and vindictive SISU can be until after the JR.

Apologies if this has been discussed and dismissed elsewhere already, but I'll float my theory anyway of just what SISU's strategy is...
Their case for JR has 4 strands to it - most of the attention has been on the loan itself and how ACL would re-finance the loan if it is found to be improper, but the related arguments that SISU made were that this was a strategy to drive them out of Coventry...and it succeeded. So, if they win the JR, they will move on to the issue of compensation for the damages incurred as a result of being driven out of Coventry by the improper actions of CCC:

1. Loss of income - many threads have said 'do the maths, SISU, you are losing millions by playing at Northampton'. They are doing it, and the longer they are out of Coventry, the bigger the total. A shortfall of 10,000 fans a match is around 3-4 million a season, plus programme and shop sales, food and drink, car parking etc. So they may be racking up 5 million a season here, plus interest of course.
2. Curtailed performance - through the above loss of income, on-pitch performance is curtailed by the necessity of staying within FFP limits. It sounds tenuous but - say we miss out on promotion by a few points - a good lawyer could convincingly argue that, without the limitations imposed by CCC's actions - the squad would have been strengthened, improved results achieved and promotion obtained, and all the resultant additional revenues that would have followed from that. Plus more income from more TV appearances, more ticket sales etc.
3. Reputational damage - our once-proud and greatly-respected club has taken so many hits to its standing and reputation that they might even try this one, even though they have arguably been responsible for most of them! A brand has a value and ours has been diminished by being forced out of our home city.

If SISU win this JR, and after loads more legal argument - not least about what is permissible to claim within the law - expect a big claim for damages against CCC, then a load more legal argument, more negotiation and eventually an agreement - "give us the Ricoh to settle our claims and we will let you off any further action".

Please tell me I am hallucinating, as I would really hate to see it turning out like this.

wingy · Dec 2, 2013

swanageskyblue said:
Apologies if this has been discussed and dismissed elsewhere already, but I'll float my theory anyway of just what SISU's strategy is...
Their case for JR has 4 strands to it - most of the attention has been on the loan itself and how ACL would re-finance the loan if it is found to be improper, but the related arguments that SISU made were that this was a strategy to drive them out of Coventry...and it succeeded. So, if they win the JR, they will move on to the issue of compensation for the damages incurred as a result of being driven out of Coventry by the improper actions of CCC:

1. Loss of income - many threads have said 'do the maths, SISU, you are losing millions by playing at Northampton'. They are doing it, and the longer they are out of Coventry, the bigger the total. A shortfall of 10,000 fans a match is around 3-4 million a season, plus programme and shop sales, food and drink, car parking etc. So they may be racking up 5 million a season here, plus interest of course.
2. Curtailed performance - through the above loss of income, on-pitch performance is curtailed by the necessity of staying within FFP limits. It sounds tenuous but - say we miss out on promotion by a few points - a good lawyer could convincingly argue that, without the limitations imposed by CCC's actions - the squad would have been strengthened, improved results achieved and promotion obtained, and all the resultant additional revenues that would have followed from that. Plus more income from more TV appearances, more ticket sales etc.
3. Reputational damage - our once-proud and greatly-respected club has taken so many hits to its standing and reputation that they might even try this one, even though they have arguably been responsible for most of them! A brand has a value and ours has been diminished by being forced out of our home city.

If SISU win this JR, and after loads more legal argument - not least about what is permissible to claim within the law - expect a big claim for damages against CCC, then a load more legal argument, more negotiation and eventually an agreement - "give us the Ricoh to settle our claims and we will let you off any further action".

Please tell me I am hallucinating, as I would really hate to see it turning out like this.

Lucid thinking ,but the reality Is different .Anyself respecting Landlord would have locked the gates .

Hobo · Dec 3, 2013

swanageskyblue said:
Apologies if this has been discussed and dismissed elsewhere already, but I'll float my theory anyway of just what SISU's strategy is...
Their case for JR has 4 strands to it - most of the attention has been on the loan itself and how ACL would re-finance the loan if it is found to be improper, but the related arguments that SISU made were that this was a strategy to drive them out of Coventry...and it succeeded. So, if they win the JR, they will move on to the issue of compensation for the damages incurred as a result of being driven out of Coventry by the improper actions of CCC:

1. Loss of income - many threads have said 'do the maths, SISU, you are losing millions by playing at Northampton'. They are doing it, and the longer they are out of Coventry, the bigger the total. A shortfall of 10,000 fans a match is around 3-4 million a season, plus programme and shop sales, food and drink, car parking etc. So they may be racking up 5 million a season here, plus interest of course.
2. Curtailed performance - through the above loss of income, on-pitch performance is curtailed by the necessity of staying within FFP limits. It sounds tenuous but - say we miss out on promotion by a few points - a good lawyer could convincingly argue that, without the limitations imposed by CCC's actions - the squad would have been strengthened, improved results achieved and promotion obtained, and all the resultant additional revenues that would have followed from that. Plus more income from more TV appearances, more ticket sales etc.
3. Reputational damage - our once-proud and greatly-respected club has taken so many hits to its standing and reputation that they might even try this one, even though they have arguably been responsible for most of them! A brand has a value and ours has been diminished by being forced out of our home city.

If SISU win this JR, and after loads more legal argument - not least about what is permissible to claim within the law - expect a big claim for damages against CCC, then a load more legal argument, more negotiation and eventually an agreement - "give us the Ricoh to settle our claims and we will let you off any further action".

Please tell me I am hallucinating, as I would really hate to see it turning out like this.

They have a number of options...the above
Buy the Ricoh turn it into something else and get rid of football team.
Buy Ricoh sell it with football team with debt to them
Relocate football team and develop new ground debt to them
Buy Ricoh develop team everyone is happy, but that doesn't get their money back so won't happen...they want a return on their investment.

Most options are depressing unfortunately. Nobody I have met seems very good at predicting SISUs strategy and they confuse it further with their own PR.

OyJimmy · Dec 3, 2013

How can it lead to damages? CCC would argue that at no point were the terms and conditions of the contract they had with limited changed. So no damage done there and at no point did ACL force the club to leave. There is nothing to say that the arrangement would have improved if ACL had new owners it's all hyperthetical and the law doesn't award damages for things that could have happened.

swisstony · Dec 3, 2013

Hobo,one of the biggest problems is sisu don't do PR.
That is what is so frustrating for the fans.

Hobo · Dec 3, 2013

swisstony said:
Hobo,one of the biggest problems is sisu don't do PR.
That is what is so frustrating for the fans.

Correction, they don't do the PR the fans would like. They have long periods of silence...but they do PR often to muddy the waters.

Warwickhunt · Dec 3, 2013

Nick said:
A few people on here were fairly sure it would be laughed out of court...

God help us poor taxpayers if the JR finds in Favour of SISU cos the council will be up shit street, ACL will go tits up

Warwickhunt · Dec 3, 2013

swanageskyblue said:
Apologies if this has been discussed and dismissed elsewhere already, but I'll float my theory anyway of just what SISU's strategy is...
Their case for JR has 4 strands to it - most of the attention has been on the loan itself and how ACL would re-finance the loan if it is found to be improper, but the related arguments that SISU made were that this was a strategy to drive them out of Coventry...and it succeeded. So, if they win the JR, they will move on to the issue of compensation for the damages incurred as a result of being driven out of Coventry by the improper actions of CCC:

1. Loss of income - many threads have said 'do the maths, SISU, you are losing millions by playing at Northampton'. They are doing it, and the longer they are out of Coventry, the bigger the total. A shortfall of 10,000 fans a match is around 3-4 million a season, plus programme and shop sales, food and drink, car parking etc. So they may be racking up 5 million a season here, plus interest of course.
2. Curtailed performance - through the above loss of income, on-pitch performance is curtailed by the necessity of staying within FFP limits. It sounds tenuous but - say we miss out on promotion by a few points - a good lawyer could convincingly argue that, without the limitations imposed by CCC's actions - the squad would have been strengthened, improved results achieved and promotion obtained, and all the resultant additional revenues that would have followed from that. Plus more income from more TV appearances, more ticket sales etc.
3. Reputational damage - our once-proud and greatly-respected club has taken so many hits to its standing and reputation that they might even try this one, even though they have arguably been responsible for most of them! A brand has a value and ours has been diminished by being forced out of our home city.

If SISU win this JR, and after loads more legal argument - not least about what is permissible to claim within the law - expect a big claim for damages against CCC, then a load more legal argument, more negotiation and eventually an agreement - "give us the Ricoh to settle our claims and we will let you off any further action".

Please tell me I am hallucinating, as I would really hate to see it turning out like this.

You are not far off the mark with this Swanage!

Warwickhunt · Dec 3, 2013

OyJimmy said:
How can it lead to damages? CCC would argue that at no point were the terms and conditions of the contract they had with limited changed. So no damage done there and at no point did ACL force the club to leave. There is nothing to say that the arrangement would have improved if ACL had new owners it's all hyperthetical and the law doesn't award damages for things that could have happened.

Taking CCFC to court to pay arrears and applying for Administration forced the club out of the Ricoh - you mean to say that ACL would continue to let City play at the RICOH when litigation had been applied for? Of course ACL drove the Club out of the RICOH how else could it make its claim stick "OOOOH they owe a shit load of money but they can still play here and carry on not paying" I would suggest that someone along the way said to TF if you dont pay what you owe then you cannot continue to play here!!!"

James Smith · Dec 3, 2013

Warwickhunt said:
God help us poor taxpayers if the JR finds in Favour of SISU cos the council will be up shit street, ACL will go tits up

Why would ACL go tits up? PWKH said (and we only have his word for this*) that they're in much better shape and making more money, if that's true then why wouldn't they just go to a commercial lender again. They'd be able to borrow the money to pay the council back and then be free of the council loan. Alternatively the appeals by whoever wins the Judicial Review might give them enough time to pay off the loan and be debt free. Or the Higgs might in a moment of madness, step in and buy the loan although that's about as likely as us playing at the Ricoh this season.

*but he hasn't told us any 'innaccuracies' to the bet of my knowledge

None of which is getting us any closer to playing Coventry.

bigfatronssba · Dec 3, 2013

Warwickhunt said:
God help us poor taxpayers if the JR finds in Favour of SISU cos the council will be up shit street, ACL will go tits up

Really wish you would stop presenting opinion as fact.

You have nothing to support the "fact" that acl will go tits up. Much more likely is they will get a commercial loan in that unlikely event.

tisza · Dec 3, 2013

How would they prove that they were forced out of the Ricoh?
They were made an improved rental offer which they declined. They decided they wanted to move and had been threatening to do so before administration and the "bailout".
If they had accepted the improved rental offer they would be better off now in terms of net income - other matchday revenue issues aside.
They decided it was to be the freehold or nothing.
I'm sure there was an earlier posting recently that under the freedom of information act the council said it had not received an offer for the freehold.

sky blue john · Dec 3, 2013

swanageskyblue said:
Apologies if this has been discussed and dismissed elsewhere already, but I'll
float my theory anyway of just what SISU's strategy is...
Their case for JR has 4 strands to it - most of the attention has been on the loan itself and how ACL would re-finance the loan if it is found to be improper, but the related arguments that SISU made were that this was a strategy to drive them out of Coventry...and it succeeded. So, if they win the JR, they will move on to the issue of compensation for the damages incurred as a result of being driven out of Coventry by the improper actions of CCC:

1. Loss of income - many threads have said 'do the maths, SISU, you are losing millions by playing at Northampton'. They are doing it, and the longer they are out of Coventry, the bigger the total. A shortfall of 10,000 fans a match is around 3-4 million a season, plus programme and shop sales, food and drink, car parking etc. So they may be racking up 5 million a season here, plus interest of course.
2. Curtailed performance - through the above loss of income, on-pitch performance is curtailed by the necessity of staying within FFP limits. It sounds tenuous but - say we miss out on promotion by a few points - a good lawyer could convincingly argue that, without the limitations imposed by CCC's actions - the squad would have been strengthened, improved results achieved and promotion obtained, and all the resultant additional revenues that would have followed from that. Plus more income from more TV appearances, more ticket sales etc.
3. Reputational damage - our once-proud and greatly-respected club has taken so many hits to its standing and reputation that they might even try this one, even though they have arguably been responsible for most of them! A brand has a value and ours has been diminished by being forced out of our home city.

If SISU win this JR, and after loads more legal argument - not least about what is permissible to claim within the law - expect a big claim for damages against CCC, then a load more legal argument, more negotiation and eventually an agreement - "give us the Ricoh to settle our claims and we will let you off any further action".

Please tell me I am hallucinating, as I would really hate to see it turning out like this.

I agree with you on the angle sis are looking into claiming damages if they win the Jr.
The only floor i see is that they were never evicted from the Ricoh they left of their own free will.

fernandopartridge · Dec 3, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
Really wish you would stop presenting opinion as fact.

You have nothing to support the "fact" that acl will go tits up. Much more likely is they will get a commercial loan in that unlikely event.

Commercial loan to cover repayment of another loan? Do you think that's feasible?

bigfatronssba · Dec 3, 2013

fernandopartridge said:
Commercial loan to cover repayment of another loan? Do you think that's feasible?

Why not? Businesses restructure their debt all the time.

If ACL is doing as well as PKWH says then they should be able to find a willing lender.

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