How much would it cost to purchase the club? (Any debts to take on factored in as well) (1 Viewer)

slowpoke · Feb 11, 2022

So could they for example attract another investor for example a Mike Ashley type or similar to be a major investor rather than out and out owner at the beginning at least, who also builds on investments then sells and moves on, I mention Ashley just as an example we know because that’s what he does and eventually did at Newcastle took time and I know Toon army fell out with him. Certainly no expert in the practicalities but looking at things I can’t see how we are at the moment being able to realistically contemplate the prem as a business model with its large wages, transfer fees etc wage budget alone could be over £40 million a year.contracts for the best players being three years plus. transfer fees millions.

SlowerThanPlatt · Feb 11, 2022

slowpoke said:
So could they for example attract another investor for example a Mike Ashley type or similar to be a major investor rather than out and out owner at the beginning at least, who also builds on investments then sells and moves on, I mention Ashley just as an example we know because that’s what he does and eventually did at Newcastle took time and I know Toon army fell out with him. Certainly no expert in the practicalities but looking at things I can’t see how we are at the moment being able to realistically contemplate the prem as a business model with its large wages, transfer fees etc wage budget alone could be over £40 million a year.contracts for the best players being three years plus. transfer fees millions.

The owners are happy to keep things ticking over as a Championship club that is clear

slowpoke · Feb 11, 2022

Very depressing, this uplift in form and hope won’t last for ever

SlowerThanPlatt · Feb 11, 2022

slowpoke said:
Very depressing, this uplift in form and hope won’t last for ever

Indeed, I’m not of the opinion a couple of loans will have got us to the play offs but if the season peters out to 14th/15th then next season STs are a hard sell

slowpoke · Feb 11, 2022

SlowerThanPlatt said:
Indeed, I’m not of the opinion a couple of loans will have got us to the play offs but if the season peters out to 14th/15th then next season STs are a hard sell

But O’Hara, Gyo, Sheaf and Hamer won’t be.

Colin Steins Smile · Feb 11, 2022

fernandopartridge said:
Even though ownership has passed to Mel Morris' company, the leases that DCFC have to use the training ground and Pride Park are mortgaged to an investment company backed by a Caymen Islands fund. Whoever buys Derby would need to settle those charges first really and I suspect that's what is holding things up.

That's my understanding of the ground situation. The one positive element for Derby is their rent is deemed relatively low.

Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon · Feb 11, 2022

The mammoth sum Coventry City owners Sisu would need to walk away without loss - CoventryLive (coventrytelegraph.net)

I think this might have been what I was thinking of when I talked about SISU needing a figure much higher than the current debt plus assets. Obviously it's from the CET and several years old so possibly not relevant. However I still can't see the owners walking away without being paid a very, very substantial amount. I believe the Hoffman bids were rumoured to be in the region of £20m but that was inclusive of various performance related add-ons.

The Philosopher · Feb 11, 2022

Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon said:
The mammoth sum Coventry City owners Sisu would need to walk away without loss - CoventryLive (coventrytelegraph.net)

I think this might have been what I was thinking of when I talked about SISU needing a figure much higher than the current debt plus assets. Obviously it's from the CET and several years old so possibly not relevant. However I still can't see the owners walking away without being paid a very, very substantial amount. I believe the Hoffman bids were rumoured to be in the region of £20m but that was inclusive of various performance related add-ons.

Having read the article, the key is the 61m of debt converted to shares. A chunk of the “debt” there was the Robinson loan (£30m?) and similar moved over from the original SISU deal I believe. Anyone know different? That money was to be repaid upon return to the PL but I can’t recall if there was a time limit on such.

Whether or not that 61m is “real” liability now I don’t know.

I’ll stick to 60m they need to walk away.

Joy Division · Feb 11, 2022

Want to get rich enough to buy the club? Just click here

oldskyblue58 · Feb 11, 2022

Just my opinion but

- why would anyone buy their high interest debt ? Surely you would only buy the assets. Thats a problem for SISU because someone buying all or part of the debt actually deflates the total amount they could take out over say the next 5 to 10 years because any such sale deal would seek to discount what the owners are owed and/or decrease annual interest due to investors
- i wouldnt think selling the assets and paying down their own debt from the proceeds is particularly palatable either, it does not give them maximum return
- is it even for sale, when SISU have not yet extracted worth from their investment. Never lose sight that it is all about maximising the investors return before the needs of the clubs supporters

I still think that the plan that commenced pre pandemic is to build value in to the playing squads, which will mean high value players being sold regularly, SISU will take a slice each year of those sales to pay down the accumulating interest and the capital they have put in to Otium, once that pay down is done then that is when they could look to sell a largely debt free football club with reasonably highly valued playing squad. That way they will maximise the return on revenue and capital investment in Otium.

However SBS&L have 28m owed to them by Otium (but not secured) so that will need paying down too. So that complicates things and could easily delay timescales to get part or all of that settled too if they choose. They are not going to be walking away from those debts debts in Otium & SBS&L in a rush to sell, and no one in their right mind would take the debt on.

Dont forget about the preference shares both ARVO & SBS&L own that are accruing something like 9% dividends once their are distributable profits too.

Also dont forget, increased value to the club, accruing or paying interest results in SISU itself taking a slice from its investors as investment managers of the relevant investment funds

They are not putting money in to the club each year as far as we know so they are not exactly struggling with it or pressured to sell in that sense. Between 2018 accounts and 2020 accounts their net investment was £36k hardly massive sums. 2021 & 2022 might be different but not sure yet. If they have put funds in they will be looking to extract those emergency funds asap

They have not been able to milk the club to get their money back (except in 2019 when they took out 1.7m - had to pay back in 2020) ....... but they will

How much would a mid championship debt free football club be worth ? presently they wouldn't look at anything below £50m for the club in that position imo............... but it is not for sale for a while yet. But they will eventually have taken much more than that in total if it all goes to plan in the way i believe

shmmeee · Feb 11, 2022

Joy Division said:
Want to get rich enough to buy the club? Just click here

That website is fucking hilarious

shmmeee · Feb 11, 2022

oldskyblue58 said:
Just my opinion but

- why would anyone buy their high interest debt ? Surely you would only buy the assets. Thats a problem for SISU because someone buying all or part of the debt actually deflates the total amount they could take out over say the next 5 to 10 years because any such sale deal would seek to discount what the owners are owed and/or decrease annual interest due to investors
- i wouldnt think selling the assets and paying down their own debt from the proceeds is particularly palatable either, it does not give them maximum return
- is it even for sale, when SISU have not yet extracted worth from their investment. Never lose sight that it is all about maximising the investors return before the needs of the clubs supporters

I still think that the plan that commenced pre pandemic is to build value in to the playing squads, which will mean high value players being sold regularly, SISU will take a slice each year of those sales to pay down the accumulating interest and the capital they have put in to Otium, once that pay down is done then that is when they could look to sell a largely debt free football club with reasonably highly valued playing squad. That way they will maximise the return on revenue and capital investment in Otium.

However SBS&L have 28m owed to them by Otium (but not secured) so that will need paying down too. So that complicates things and could easily delay timescales to get part or all of that settled too if they choose. They are not going to be walking away from those debts debts in Otium & SBS&L in a rush to sell, and no one in their right mind would take the debt on.

Dont forget about the preference shares both ARVO & SBS&L own that are accruing something like 9% dividends once their are distributable profits too.

Also dont forget, increased value to the club, accruing or paying interest results in SISU itself taking a slice from its investors as investment managers of the relevant investment funds

They are not putting money in to the club each year as far as we know so they are not exactly struggling with it or pressured to sell in that sense. Between 2018 accounts and 2020 accounts their net investment was £36k hardly massive sums. 2021 & 2022 might be different but not sure yet. If they have put funds in they will be looking to extract those emergency funds asap

They have not been able to milk the club to get their money back (except in 2019 when they took out 1.7m - had to pay back in 2020) ....... but they will

How much would a mid championship debt free football club be worth ? presently they wouldn't look at anything below £50m for the club in that position imo............... but it is not for sale for a while yet. But they will eventually have taken much more than that in total if it all goes to plan in the way i believe

What sort of timescales are we talking here? Slicing off player profits on current form would take decades.

Nick · Feb 11, 2022

shmmeee said:
That website is fucking hilarious

Billionaire......

oldskyblue58 · Feb 11, 2022

shmmeee said:
What sort of timescales are we talking here? Slicing off player profits on current form would take decades.

Depends what they can get out of player sales doesnt it. Bought Gyokeres for £1m if he continues his improvement then could sell over £10m. Now we are back in Coventry match income better, EFL distributions better etc ...... could allow SISU to take £3m out and still leave MR with a better pot to use than in previous years. Start repaying in those terms and the Otium debt comes down quicker which decreases interest charge and maintains profitability or lower losses. Because they dont as far as we know put funds in then even if we got relegated we wouldnt be in a position to do a fire sale of players if we got relegated and player value would not be so hard hit.

5 to 10 years i would think is target but is a pure guess - certainly not soon in my opinion

chiefdave · Feb 11, 2022

shmmeee said:
What sort of timescales are we talking here? Slicing off player profits on current form would take decades.

About 50 years reading that! Being stuck with SISU as owners for the rest of my lifetime isn't a depressing thought at all.

Joy Division · Feb 11, 2022

Nick said:
Billionaire......

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oldskyblue58 · Feb 11, 2022

chiefdave said:
About 50 years reading that! Being stuck with SISU as owners for the rest of my lifetime isn't a depressing thought at all.

was a depressing thought that went through my mind as well when writing it. But if they could show repayments, value, worth etc that adds a premium to any sale. Hold on too long and the value could fall (fishers top of the cycle ?) Show that Otium allows owners to take out £2m or £3m pa by the way it is run with no big debt at point of sale would be a good selling feature wouldnt it?

Samo · Feb 11, 2022

So, are we saying that SISU will probably own the club for as long as they exist and all we have to look forward to is hoping that a poorly funded Championship club can miraculously continue to over-achieve?
If not, what is the end game and when does it arrive?

shmmeee · Feb 11, 2022

My biggest concern is how long will Robins last and what happens when he goes TBH.

The Philosopher · Feb 11, 2022

oldskyblue58 said:
Just my opinion but

- why would anyone buy their high interest debt ? Surely you would only buy the assets. Thats a problem for SISU because someone buying all or part of the debt actually deflates the total amount they could take out over say the next 5 to 10 years because any such sale deal would seek to discount what the owners are owed and/or decrease annual interest due to investors
- i wouldnt think selling the assets and paying down their own debt from the proceeds is particularly palatable either, it does not give them maximum return
- is it even for sale, when SISU have not yet extracted worth from their investment. Never lose sight that it is all about maximising the investors return before the needs of the clubs supporters

I still think that the plan that commenced pre pandemic is to build value in to the playing squads, which will mean high value players being sold regularly, SISU will take a slice each year of those sales to pay down the accumulating interest and the capital they have put in to Otium, once that pay down is done then that is when they could look to sell a largely debt free football club with reasonably highly valued playing squad. That way they will maximise the return on revenue and capital investment in Otium.

However SBS&L have 28m owed to them by Otium (but not secured) so that will need paying down too. So that complicates things and could easily delay timescales to get part or all of that settled too if they choose. They are not going to be walking away from those debts debts in Otium & SBS&L in a rush to sell, and no one in their right mind would take the debt on.

Dont forget about the preference shares both ARVO & SBS&L own that are accruing something like 9% dividends once their are distributable profits too.

Also dont forget, increased value to the club, accruing or paying interest results in SISU itself taking a slice from its investors as investment managers of the relevant investment funds

They are not putting money in to the club each year as far as we know so they are not exactly struggling with it or pressured to sell in that sense. Between 2018 accounts and 2020 accounts their net investment was £36k hardly massive sums. 2021 & 2022 might be different but not sure yet. If they have put funds in they will be looking to extract those emergency funds asap

They have not been able to milk the club to get their money back (except in 2019 when they took out 1.7m - had to pay back in 2020) ....... but they will

How much would a mid championship debt free football club be worth ? presently they wouldn't look at anything below £50m for the club in that position imo............... but it is not for sale for a while yet. But they will eventually have taken much more than that in total if it all goes to plan in the way i believe

Having read all that, I’ll repeat my earlier assertions:

They need 60m to walk away.

They’ll take 60m since it plugs their hole in their investment portfolio and CCFC is a risky debt. Imagine MR leaves and we get relegated.

Remember Fisher talking about “bottom of cycle”. At the moment we are at a good point in the cycle. An investor might think that 60m for 30m of assets of a business that creates 10m / year revenue (back of fag packet figures) and a fair chance of promotion (after significant investment) is worth a punt.

stevefloyd · Feb 11, 2022

Harries11 said:
Tea & Busquets OUT!

its started

stevefloyd · Feb 11, 2022

Mike Ashley went to Newcastle, initially hailed as the new coming bringing back Keegan then seemed to lose the plot, so 1 piece of advice don't bring back any previous managers and shaft them ...especially Slade and Venus, when you raise enough pocket money to take over

Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon · Feb 11, 2022

The Philosopher said:
Having read the article, the key is the 61m of debt converted to shares. A chunk of the “debt” there was the Robinson loan (£30m?) and similar moved over from the original SISU deal I believe. Anyone know different? That money was to be repaid upon return to the PL but I can’t recall if there was a time limit on such.

Whether or not that 61m is “real” liability now I don’t know.

I’ll stick to 60m they need to walk away.

Yeah i don't think £60m is a bad guess (and lets face it we're all guessing here as SISU would have lot's of info we're never going to see when it comes to setting a price they'd take). The worst part of all this for me is that the figure required for a change of ownership appears prohibitive to any sensible investor coming in for us. You never know, but i fear they'd want so much money as to make it highly unlikely to find a buyer. As osb details in his posts they could, in theory, continue to run us in the same way for quite some time yet with no real downside to themselves....so they aren't going to sell us in a hurry or on the cheap.

Happy fucking Friday everyone.

Liquid Gold · Feb 11, 2022

Actually thinking about it if someone came in with an offer of £51,987.35p that definitely wasn't a publicity stunt they jump at it.

Grendel · Feb 11, 2022

Lol whose going to pay £30m alone £60m for a club with zero assets and a tiny lease to a private landlord

stay_up_skyblues · Feb 12, 2022

shmmeee said:
That website is fucking hilarious

Featured on the BBC…. Yeah BBC news when he was exposed as an imposter after his CCFC “bid” iirc. What a thing to put on your CV.

Also I like the endorsement from Blam websites, who incidentally made the website and appear to have hosted a YouTube video interview with him. His mate then.

What a clown.

13th_choice_seamer · Feb 12, 2022

What happened to Hoffman and his "consortium" as prospective bidders? Now he has resigned from his day job, is he going to get the band back together? Or did that ship sail with his "welcoming Dale Evans" to his group?

slowpoke · Feb 12, 2022

I’m sure they are still around and probably know a lot more than we do GH will certainly know contacts but it’s been very quiet from that consortium for ages.

13th_choice_seamer · Feb 12, 2022

Coventry City: Gary Hoffman consortium has third offer rejected

The consortium of Coventry businessmen has made three bids to buy the Sky Blues off the London hedge fund owners

www.coventrytelegraph.net

If the above is to be believed, his third/highest bid was nothing like some of the numbers mentioned in this thread.

stay_up_skyblues · Feb 12, 2022

Can’t bear trying to navigate the Covtel website but from memory the bid was something like £3m up front, a half share future transfer fees received and then a top up to £20m odd upon promotion to the Champ and then Premier.

Based on those numbers I can’t imagine they had the funds to give the manager a warchest. Would they keep the profits made on player sales in the club? Maybe, but 50% of the sales would have been turned over to Sisu. In practice I struggle to see how we’d have been better off had they got their hands on the club.

I wanna see the back of the current owners as much as the next fan but I don’t think that consortium was the answer.

oldskyblue58 · Feb 12, 2022

13th_choice_seamer said:
Coventry City: Gary Hoffman consortium has third offer rejected

The consortium of Coventry businessmen has made three bids to buy the Sky Blues off the London hedge fund owners

www.coventrytelegraph.net

If the above is to be believed, his third/highest bid was nothing like some of the numbers mentioned in this thread.

Was never ever going to happen for all sorts of reasons..... the bids and structure of them were rejected out of hand. The consortium didn't have the finances to make any bid that might have tempted sisu at the time.

Given the club needs transfer fees to survive giving away 50% of those fees doesn't make any sense to me at all

slowpoke · Feb 12, 2022

Think it was a case of getting rid of sisu being the priority we’ll never know if we’d gone on to develop as we have.

SlowerThanPlatt · Feb 13, 2022

slowpoke said:
I’m sure they are still around and probably know a lot more than we do GH will certainly know contacts but it’s been very quiet from that consortium for ages.

Contacts such as Dale Evans

Covkid1968# · Feb 14, 2022

Harries11 said:
Tea & Busquets OUT!

To avoid a painful 12 page new song thread We can only get this to work if we use abbreviations and remove the &

We want TB out say we want TB out

I think we’re stuck with our Joy!!

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 15, 2022

Covkid1968# said:
To avoid a painful 12 page new song thread We can only get this to work if we use abbreviations and remove the &

We want TB out say we want TB out

I think we’re stuck with our Joy!!

Perhaps you could set up a BrightonSkyBlue-Covkid1968#-Grendel consortium to get rid of him?

How much would it cost to purchase the club? (Any debts to take on factored in as well) (1 Viewer)

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