So, do they need to offer to clear the 12.4m or the 28m to make it saleable?
Structures are here
Sky Blue Trust - CCFC Company and Group Structures
Otium which trades as CCFC owe ARVO 12.4 in loans and interest. In addition to the ownership ordinary voting shares there are preference shares issued in Otium totalling 65m which are owned by ARVO 15m and SBS& L 50m (in round figures) - these shares are in reality clever accounting and worthless
SBS&L owes its investors 28m. (Otium does not owe SBS&L £28m which is a problem for SISU)
Any deal would have to include either wiping the debts or paying a significant portion of them at least I would have thought. Serious question, is there anything stopping SISU selling the club to lets say Hoffman, and then immediately calling in the debts for what's owed to them? Probably wouldn't do that because they know the club hasnt really got any money to pay it but could get a winding up order issued once they don't own it anymore as a big final up yours to the fans
That's why he's not trying to buy the club, he's just trying to buy the assets he wants. So he takes what we would class as the football club (golden share, players, Ryton) and places those assets in a new company leave behind Otium and the debt.Any deal would have to include either wiping the debts or paying a significant portion of them at least I would have thought. Serious question, is there anything stopping SISU selling the club to lets say Hoffman, and then immediately calling in the debts for what's owed to them?
You are looking at it from your view though. See it through their eyes and you trust yourself to turn it round. At the end of the day, these people have had success in business before and have massive ego's, so will back themselves to get a return whether we think they are right or wrong. They won't currently see this as a downward spiral as they have moved the club to a position where it is not making a loss. This for them is making things better. The relegation doesn't help them though, so now is hopefully a good time to strike with a decent offer. They over value the club though (which is there right as owners) so will need a good offer.
What Hoffman is doing is not bidding for either company. He is picking and choosing the assets & liabilities he takes on. He doesn't want any of the ARVO debt or the preference shares in Otium and the £28m is isolated in SBS&L a company he has no interest in acquiring at all. Out of choice he would only take the assets but FA /EFL do not permit you to not honour what they call "football debt"
That's the point really he isn't directly settling any of the borrowings up front and is providing a future promise of something or may be nothing
That is quite clearly going to be a problem for SISU & ARVO. For any deal to work then from their point of view the outstanding loans, especially ARVO, need to be dealt with by something more substantial than a promise to pay 50% of sales or transfers that may never happen
You would be a nice person to deal with if you had something to sell...I wouldn't need any money up front and you would trust to the fact I'll follow through and pay you later. That's alright then, deal done! Do you have a house for sale?So no difference to what's happening now then? Except that is that they might actually get something in a few years time
I find the whole setup of the bid... curious.What Hoffman is doing is not bidding for either company. He is picking and choosing the assets & liabilities he takes on. He doesn't want any of the ARVO debt or the preference shares in Otium and the £28m is isolated in SBS&L a company he has no interest in acquiring at all. Out of choice he would only take the assets but FA /EFL do not permit you to not honour what they call "football debt"
That's the point really he isn't directly settling any of the borrowings up front and is providing a future promise of something or may be nothing
That is quite clearly going to be a problem for SISU & ARVO. For any deal to work then from their point of view the outstanding loans, especially ARVO, need to be dealt with by something more substantial than a promise to pay 50% of sales or transfers that may never happen
What Hoffman is doing is not bidding for either company. He is picking and choosing the assets & liabilities he takes on. He doesn't want any of the ARVO debt or the preference shares in Otium and the £28m is isolated in SBS&L a company he has no interest in acquiring at all. Out of choice he would only take the assets but FA /EFL do not permit you to not honour what they call "football debt"
That's the point really he isn't directly settling any of the borrowings up front and is providing a future promise of something or may be nothing
That is quite clearly going to be a problem for SISU & ARVO. For any deal to work then from their point of view the outstanding loans, especially ARVO, need to be dealt with by something more substantial than a promise to pay 50% of sales or transfers that may never happen
The investments that I've got are worth ten times what I paid for them, so no I wouldn't be a nice person to deal with.You would be a nice person to deal with if you had something to sell...I wouldn't need any money up front and you would trust to the fact I'll follow through and pay you later. That's alright then, deal done! Do you have a house for sale?
Therefore... I have to ask, just why this particular bid has been made, in this way? What purpose does it serve?
If it wasn't just dipping a toe in the water to see how ready to sell SISU are then I'm struggling to see that it served any purpose other than a PR stunt as the terms offered were always going to be derisory from SISU's point of view.I find the whole setup of the bid... curious.
It seems to be a lose/lose.
Our owners won't be keen as it's a promise of nothing.
If, however, it were something, it would handicap our club going forward, to a degree potentially more than at present, as we'd be giving away the jackpot that would allow the foundations to be rebuilt.
Therefore... I have to ask, just why this particular bid has been made, in this way? What purpose does it serve?
On the face of it without any information with just the headlines it looks good. Especially when it's paired with "SISU only paid £1".
or bad when compared to the "£70m investment" at the other end of the reporting spectrum......... neither comparison being helpful, useful, factual or correct
I don't disagree with that.or bad when compared to the "£70m investment" at the other end of the reporting spectrum......... neither comparison being helpful, useful, factual or correct
I don't disagree with that.
I don't, really, even expect a newspaper to do the in-depth analyses you do, but ome things are a little... extreme and provocative, atm.
On the face of it without any information with just the headlines it looks good. Especially when it's paired with "SISU only paid £1".
To me this points to one of two things: -What Hoffman is doing is not bidding for either company. He is picking and choosing the assets & liabilities he takes on. He doesn't want any of the ARVO debt or the preference shares in Otium and the £28m is isolated in SBS&L a company he has no interest in acquiring at all. Out of choice he would only take the assets but FA /EFL do not permit you to not honour what they call "football debt"
That's the point really he isn't directly settling any of the borrowings up front and is providing a future promise of something or may be nothing
That is quite clearly going to be a problem for SISU & ARVO. For any deal to work then from their point of view the outstanding loans, especially ARVO, need to be dealt with by something more substantial than a promise to pay 50% of sales or transfers that may never happen
To me this points to one of two things: -
1. Their own tangled, clever-cock web constructed with the administrator's collusion has caught up with them...they can't afford to sell
2. There is something which makes it attractive to them/their investors in keeping saddled with the debt - the structure they have created makes it virtually impossible to get a good deal from buying the club
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It's the perfect time for a freelance journo to nip in and be in the middle and just report facts.
Hmm - facts alone are just 'dots'. We need someone who can connect the dots.
Not long ago reports of mediation popped up - that's a dot. Then loud pleas not to buy ST's - that's another dot. Now this take-over offer - that's the latest dot.
Do the dots connect?
There are plenty of dots and plenty of co-incidences aren't there?
You can only cut cost till you go bust. If you dont invest you get less customers less money. At some point they will have to sell or put money in becsuse the customer base is constantly reducing to a point where there will not be enough money to pay rent,bills, wages ect. Then what ??They don't have to sell, they will just cut costs until it ticks over and breaks even on it's own.
1,000 ST sales, they will just slash budgets accordingly or sell players.
Surely the buyer would sort that at the same time?
A slashed budget will invariably weaken the side,which will drive even more fans away. I'm not sure there will be a queue of clubs clamouring to sign players ,who helped get us relegated weeks before the season's end. But the biggest weakness for SISU, is we still don't have a ground to play at,in just over 12 months. The clock is ticking,and they can't put this issue off for very much longer.They don't have to sell, they will just cut costs until it ticks over and breaks even on it's own.
1,000 ST sales, they will just slash budgets accordingly or sell players.
Opening gambit.I find the whole setup of the bid... curious.
They don't have to sell, they will just cut costs until it ticks over and breaks even on it's own.
1,000 ST sales, they will just slash budgets accordingly or sell players.
Exactly...they don't want to sell for a reason. The only other thing I can possibly think of is the ongoing court case over the RicohThey don't have to sell, they will just cut costs until it ticks over and breaks even on it's own.
1,000 ST sales, they will just slash budgets accordingly or sell players.
or because the offer isn't very goodExactly...they don't want to sell for a reason. The only other thing I can possibly think of is the ongoing court case over the Ricoh
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or because the offer isn't very good
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