How big does a squad need to be? (3 Viewers)

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Feb 20, 2012

Let's try and keep this away from a Thorn bashing debate, shall we; but I was just wondering what the 'true' strength of our squad is?!?

The official CCFC site lists 32 current First Team squad players. One of these is Sky Blue Sam (although he might be worth a shout on current form - either as a player of manager before someone gets that one in!).

Wilson, ROD and McPake are out on loan - so if you take them away and factor in Sky Blue Sam until it's decided what his best role is - leaves 28 players.

Of the 28 players, Nimely and Norwood aren't ours and have only arrived in recent weeks in any case. So, a core of 26.

Of those 26, some players are either very young, or wholly untested at this level - these being Jordon Willis, Aaron Phillips, Joshua Ruffels, Geal Bigirimana, Lee Burge, Conor Thomas, Nathan Cameron, Cyrus Christie, Shaun Jeffers and Jordan Clarke. That's 10 youngsters.

As such, we have about 16 'seasoned professionals' - and I'm being very, very generous in that description given it includes Chris Hussey, Chris Dunn and Danny Ireland.

Struck me that we must be at least 3 or 4 players shy of what would be needed to compete; to compensate for injuries and loss of form over a season.

This isn't a thread meant to defend, or attack Thorn's stewardship - I hasten to add. I just wanted to truly understand what we had to play with, and frankly speaking was rather surprised at quite what a scant resource we have

Nick · Feb 20, 2012

It would be interested to see other squad counts from other teams to see what the average is.

stupot07 · Feb 20, 2012

I had a look at portsmouth's the other day, and they have only included one kid as part of their squad. I presume this has been done on purpose so that they can moan about only having a small number of first team players - it probably helps then persuade the football league to allow them emergency loans. However when we had bigi, ruffels and willis on the bench, they had Kitson, Moekena and Benjani.

Sick Boy · Feb 20, 2012

Anyone would think we are the only club playing 'kids' according to some on here. How about teams like Derby? They even had a 15 year old playing.

We don't really have that many 'kids' in the actual first-team, especially in comparison to other clubs in this league.

smileycov · Feb 20, 2012

It isn't just that though is it? On saturday as Baker pumped another useless cross out i looked at AT and thought for god's sake get him off!! Then i thought for who? Bell is hardly consistent and to be fair isn't great when he is! Freddie is unknown now (as in, will he or wont he try/be any good) so it is the strength in depth more than the lack of depth surely?

Sick Boy · Feb 20, 2012

smileycov said:
It isn't just that though is it? On saturday as Baker pumped another useless cross out i looked at AT and thought for god's sake get him off!! Then i thought for who? Bell is hardly consistent and to be fair isn't great when he is! Freddie is unknown now (as in, will he or wont he try/be any good) so it is the strength in depth more than the lack of depth surely?

Bell & Baker have both been singled out by Thorn as quality players and even offered contracts. Surly he is responsible for scouting them as well?

stupot07 · Feb 20, 2012

Sick Boy said:
Anyone would think we are the only club playing 'kids' according to some on here. How about teams like Derby? They even had a 15 year old playing.

We don't really have that many 'kids' in the actual first-team, especially in comparison to other clubs in this league.

Derby have a bigger and better squad than us, they have managed to sign 10 permanent and 5 loan players this season and have a wage bill which is nearly twice as big. Ours is about £5m, derby's is £9.6m.

Sick Boy · Feb 20, 2012

stupot07 said:
Derby have a bigger and better squad than us, they have managed to sign 10 permanent and 5 loan players this season and have a wage bill which is nearly twice as big. Ours is about £5m, derby's is £9.6m.

Have you got a link to these figures?

Colonel Mustard · Feb 20, 2012

stupot07 said:
Derby have a bigger and better squad than us, they have managed to sign 10 permanent and 5 loan players this season and have a wage bill which is nearly twice as big. Ours is about £5m, derby's is £9.6m.

They have borrowed against their stadium though, no? Something CCFC is unable to do.

smileycov · Feb 20, 2012

Sick Boy said:
Bell & Baker have both been singled out by Thorn as quality players and even offered contracts. Surly he is responsible for scouting them as well?

Why you twisting this into YET ANOTHER ANTI AT THREAD?

the point is we have a squad that is neither big enough or good enough!! so when the players play shit we can not mix it up as we have nothing on the bench either!!

Sick Boy · Feb 20, 2012

smileycov said:
Why you twisting this into YET ANOTHER ANTI AT THREAD?

the point is we have a squad that is neither big enough or good enough!! so when the players play shit we can not mix it up as we have nothing on the bench either!!

Sorry, just an observation. It wasn't necessarily anti-Thorn anyway.

smileycov · Feb 20, 2012

Okay.....

Very frustrating watching Saturday, Nimely superb but everyone about 2 moves behind him. Amazing what a bit of talent can do.Even he got frustrated so he tried to go it alone and lost his way.

Mumford and Daughter · Feb 20, 2012

smileycov said:
Why you twisting this into YET ANOTHER ANTI AT THREAD?

the point is we have a squad that is neither big enough or good enough!! so when the players play shit we can not mix it up as we have nothing on the bench either!!

Who was twisting anything? Its true, we offered Bell and Baker extentions on there contracts...............,..... why? Surely the money could have been used better elsewhere.

stupot07 · Feb 20, 2012

Sick Boy said:
Have you got a link to these figures?

Telegraph estimating ours at £5m.

http://www.football.co.uk/coventry_city/dulieu_s_figures__do_they_add_up__rss1931698.shtml

Also fisher stating that our wage bill is now less than 70% of our turnover.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/co...here-has-all-the-money-gone-92746-30209621/2/

Article in the independent about forest says that clough's had to shave 40% off the wage bill which was £16m when he took over - £9.6m. Funnily enough it says that forest are losing £1m per month and last season their wage bill was 109% of their turnover.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...that-the-future-is-the-derby-way-6329938.html

smileycov · Feb 20, 2012

Didn't say that did i? I said lets not twist it into another anti at thread!! we are talking about a weak squad that has no depth,
try and read slowly you made yourself look very silly

Sick Boy · Feb 20, 2012

Mumford and Daughter said:
Who was twisting anything? Its true, we offered Bell and Baker extentions on there contracts...............,..... why? Surely the money could have been used better elsewhere.

Do you know how much they are on?

Mumford and Daughter · Feb 20, 2012

smileycov said:
Didn't say that did i? I said lets not twist it into another anti at thread!! we are talking about a weak squad that has no depth,
try and read slowly you made yourself look very silly

how have i made myself look silly?

money is tight as we know yet offer Bell new contract. its madness.

we have to look at the bigger picture. we offer contracts to rubbish players but dont offer contracts to the better players.

Mumford and Daughter · Feb 20, 2012

Sick Boy said:
Do you know how much they are on?

where did i say how much there on???

i said why offer EXTENSIONS to contracts?

i havent been on here for a while and the memembersd have become idotic. i thought half term was last week :facepalm:

Sick Boy · Feb 20, 2012

Mumford and Daughter said:
where did i say how much there on???

i said why offer EXTENSIONS to contracts?

i havent been on here for a while and the memembersd have become idotic. i thought half term was last week :facepalm:

What is your problem? You originally agreed with me, so I asked you a straightforward question?

Mumford and Daughter · Feb 20, 2012

Sick Boy said:
What is your problem? You originally agreed with me, so I asked you a straightforward question?

no problem lad, how would i know how much there on? i'd say at a guess 5k a week

all i know is they shouldnt have been offered extensions.

operationprem · Feb 20, 2012

It desperately needed changing Saturday, baker was the obvious one and Sheff wasn't on his game. The difference was forest can bring on players like Blakstock and the best we have is David Bell who's been shit all season, a load of kids that will never change a game an fat Freddy. Forests manager had choices to make if our first 11 arnt doing it we don't

smileycov · Feb 20, 2012

Mumford and Daughter said:
how have i made myself look silly?

money is tight as we know yet offer Bell new contract. its madness.

we have to look at the bigger picture. we offer contracts to rubbish players but dont offer contracts to the better players.

Beacuse Einstein, you said who is twisting it then went on about the contracts!! My original point was we are talking about squad sizes and depths, not who has been offered extensions/ who shouldnt, money spent else where, AT is shit blah blah blah.....i said don't twist it into ANOTHER ANTI AT thread....just like you appear to be doing. Is that plain enough or will you carry on OFF TOPIC?

smileycov · Feb 20, 2012

Operationprem, exactly!! just so frustrating seeing chance after chance wasted beacuse we can not deliver a ball correctly or control midfield, yet looking at the bench doesn't offer any options at all! When players like sheffers (who has done alright lately) are off the boil and baker is struggling we suffer badly. realy noticed it saturday, reckon 1 goal would have deflated em....bit like us after there's

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Feb 20, 2012

Sick Boy said:
Have you got a link to these figures?

I posted a comparative wages thread about two weeks ago after exhaustive reading of club's accounts and other references. Thrilling homework!!

It clearly showed that we are operating within the bottom three clubs in the league with regards wage budget

stupot07 · Feb 20, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
I posted a comparative wages thread about two weeks ago after exhaustive reading of club's accounts and other references. Thrilling homework!!

It clearly showed that we are operating within the bottom three clubs in the league with regards wage budget

Can you post the link please?

Sick Boy · Feb 20, 2012

stupot07 said:
Can you post the link please?

I would like to see it as well.

Remember though, the wage budget does not always equal how well/badly you will perform in the league. Leicester spent 10million one season and went down.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Feb 20, 2012

Nick said:
It would be interested to see other squad counts from other teams to see what the average is.

Well, statistics and their interpretation reign supreme here. I like to debate from a position of research, and therefore I looked at Derby as they've been discussed on here of late.

Overall, their average squad member age is higher. Ours at 24.2 and theirs at just over 25. However, there are two underlying issues here...

First off, they have a strong body of more proven pros in the 24 to 28 age bracket. Their clutch of youngsters is half the size ours is, and of course, some at 15 skew the statistics to make their overall squad closer to ours than reality it is. If you remember mean, median and mode from school days you'll know what's mean when I say the overall profile of their players is much higher than the linear statistics suggest.

The other issue is that they haven't been as reliant on these youngsters. For example, Christie and Thomas at 19 and 18 years of age have - between them - played over 50 games so far his season. So it's not just the per se age of our kids that's the relative issue; it's our reliance upon them. Hence the desperation that currently prevails at our left back position

Sick Boy · Feb 20, 2012

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Hence the desperation that currently prevails at our left back position

I thought we spent money on getting a LB in on loan for the rest of the season?

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Feb 20, 2012

stupot07 said:
Can you post the link please?

Mon plesir...

http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/14421-Comparative-wages

smileycov · Feb 20, 2012

Sick Boy said:
I thought we spent money on getting a LB in on loan for the rest of the season?

He got injured and is now out!! Fate can be a cruel mistress!!

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 20, 2012

Oh, and by the way:

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/p...ls_for_football_league_common_sense_1_3540793

'Common sense' eh Appleton?

Nonleagueherewecome · Feb 20, 2012

Mumford and Daughter said:
how have i made myself look silly?

money is tight as we know yet offer Bell new contract. its madness.

we have to look at the bigger picture. we offer contracts to rubbish players but dont offer contracts to the better players.

SISU, asset value, balance sheets. Sod all to do with football!

Nonleagueherewecome · Feb 20, 2012

smileycov said:
Operationprem, exactly!! just so frustrating seeing chance after chance wasted beacuse we can not deliver a ball correctly or control midfield, yet looking at the bench doesn't offer any options at all! When players like sheffers (who has done alright lately) are off the boil and baker is struggling we suffer badly. realy noticed it saturday, reckon 1 goal would have deflated em....bit like us after there's

Agreed entirely. Simply by having another player of almost or the same quality of the player he's replacing, other teams have an option we don't. Even someone like Simpson now would be a massive strengthening of our options as someone like that can make an impact. I really don't think we can put Eastwood in that class any more (zero goals as sub at CCFC, say no more).

The same goes for playing when not fit (eg Jordan) or out of position (Jordan..) Rather than calling him "shite", maybe we should bemoan the weak squad that has left us with him as the only available option for that role? He was knackered after brilliantly keeping Snodgrass quiet Tuesday, but it was too much to ask him to do it again so soon with no core fitness behind him. Same goes for the likes of Platt-he's a rotation player, he's never done it 2-3 times a week apart from his season in L2 with MK Dons when he was a lot younger! No chance of any rotation with our squad, is there? It comes down to Baker or Bell and that's about it.

johnwillomagic · Feb 20, 2012

I think going back to the original thread a squad of about 30 should be sufficient inclusive of youngsters and we are not too far off that.

3 Goalies (2 experienced, one young) - Murphy, Dunn, Ireland......sort of there would like a better no 2 but there you go

10 defenders (6-7 experienced, 2/3 young) - Crainie, Wood, Keogh, McPake, Herman, Clarke, Hussey, Cameron - all experienced
Christie gaining experience the hard way! ......so overall not far off

10 midfielders (6-7 experienced, 2/3 young) - Clingan, Baker, Bell, McSheffrey, Deegan all ralatively experienced.
Thomas gaining experience the hard way!, Bigi, Norwood young players......a couple short maybe but maybe not

6 Forwards (4 experienced, 2 raw and hungry) - Platt, Eastwood, McDonald, O'Donovan all experienced.......Nimely young raw premiership talent.

Forwards to me are where we are shortest....however not really on squad numbers.

I still do not believe our wage bill is lower than some teams but regardless of this as you can only name 16 in matchday squad I think a squad of around 30 should be ample.

Also with FFP coming in we have to accept our revenue streams coming in are piss poor - we do not own our own ground and our sources of revenue are reduced as a result, our average attendance is fairly modest as well by championship standards.

I think overall squad number is about right just need to replace some senior squad members with other ones.......in my opinion Thorn dropped a huge ricket in offering Bell & Baker new deals.......at present cannot see that many senior players going.......or not the ones we need to go anyhow!

Nonleagueherewecome · Feb 20, 2012

The big problem with that Willo is that you've counted players that aren't here at the same time! EG Nimely/Herman/Norwood AND ROD/McPake.

How big does a squad need to be? (3 Viewers)

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