How big a club are we? (4 Viewers)

Chinny_Hill · Sep 30, 2012

I was having a conversation with a Villa fan, and he said that most clubs never really move from their true level. He used Swindon as an example and said if you think of Swindon you generally think of the third tier. He said (and he wasn't trying to rub my nose in it) that we were a similar entity. Clearly I pointed out the error of his ways...but he went on to say if he imagined all the clubs in the football league he'd rank us about 28th. (Villa 7th..so clearly he's wrong there) Of course there are lots of things you can measure, gates, trophies, length in top flight, history, ground etc, etc.

Where do you think we sit....

I think about 17th or 18th

lordsummerisle · Sep 30, 2012

Chinny_Hill said:
I was having a conversation with a Villa fan, and he said that most clubs never really move from their true level. He used Swindon as an example and said if you think of Swindon you generally think of the third tier. He said (and he wasn't trying to rub my nose in it) that we were a similar entity. Clearly I pointed out the error of his ways...but he went on to say if he imagined all the clubs in the football league he'd rank us about 28th. (Villa 7th..so clearly he's wrong there) Of course there are lots of things you can measure, gates, trophies, length in top flight, history, ground etc, etc.

Where do you think we sit....

I think about 17th or 18th

He's probably not too far out to be fair.

Sick Boy · Sep 30, 2012

Chinny_Hill said:
I was having a conversation with a Villa fan, and he said that most clubs never really move from their true level. He used Swindon as an example and said if you think of Swindon you generally think of the third tier. He said (and he wasn't trying to rub my nose in it) that we were a similar entity. Clearly I pointed out the error of his ways...but he went on to say if he imagined all the clubs in the football league he'd rank us about 28th. (Villa 7th..so clearly he's wrong there) Of course there are lots of things you can measure, gates, trophies, length in top flight, history, ground etc, etc.

Where do you think we sit....

I think about 17th or 18th

When you consider the history of the club, you can understand why someone would claim that we were a smaller club punching above our weight for a long time. A lot of people have seen CCFC in the top flight for the majority of their lives, so they associate CCFC as a big club.

I would say we are around 25th...there is no way Villa would be 7th though!

Sky_Blue_Vickie · Sep 30, 2012

Agree with this. Think we would be around 23 to 24 and so our natural position should be high championship. Whilst it was obviously great we spent so long in the top flight we were punching above our weight and unfortunately as sickboy says think this means many associate CCFC as a big club.

We are clearly punching well below our weight at the moment and but hopefully robins is on way to turning this round.

Unfortunately villa are proabably just about in top ten.

Black6Osprey · Sep 30, 2012

If you look at history, size of fan base, honours etc he's probably been slightly generous to both but he is closer with his Villa estimate. They have won the league and european cup plus league cups & FA Cups, European Super Cup and the top quality Intertoto Cup and have finshed in the last 30 years, 12 times in the top 6, so a good return generally and a good 30 - 40k crowd average. Must put them in the top 10 for me. We have one FA Cup and a crowd average over the last 20 years of 15,000 - 17,000. Obviously going down more recently. I wouldn't put us in the top 30 to be honest more like about 35th.

hamil99 · Sep 30, 2012

Surely it should go on catchment area, cov's the 8th biggest city in England, with only one real team. We should not be in the third tier...

Grendel · Sep 30, 2012

It's such an open ended question. Based purely on league status and if it's measured friom when we had 4 competitive divisions we would be in the top 20.

Grendel · Sep 30, 2012

Black6Osprey said:
If you look at history, size of fan base, honours etc he's probably been slightly generous to both but he is closer with his Villa estimate. They have won the league and european cup plus league cups & FA Cups, European Super Cup and the top quality Intertoto Cup and have finshed in the last 30 years, 12 times in the top 6, so a good return generally and a good 30 - 40k crowd average. Must put them in the top 10 for me. We have one FA Cup and a crowd average over the last 20 years of 15,000 - 17,000. Obviously going down more recently. I wouldn't put us in the top 30 to be honest more like about 35th.

There is a website somewhere that gives a league position based on attendees going back to the 50's. We are about 18th.

theprince · Sep 30, 2012

I think a successful Aston Villa would be 7th or 8th. They have a huge fan base but like us in a way haven't really achieved anything like their potential for years and with the arabs and oligarts throwing money at certain clubs they are pushed downwards. Chelsea and Man City have leap frogged them but if Villa had a team like either of those two Villa park would be a sell out every match you can't say that at Chelski or Man City.
I remember Villa in division three and division two getting 50000 crowds regular, that was in the mid 70s.

Order of clubs in my opinion would be :
Manchester United
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham
Chelski
Manchester City
Aston Villa
Newcastle
Everton
Sunderland

pusbccfc · Sep 30, 2012

Weren't we like 16th or something in terms of how many premier league points.
That's got to be a big factor.

pusbccfc · Sep 30, 2012

In fact we're 18th

Diehard Si · Sep 30, 2012

Define size?

Size of stadium? Well we don't own one.

If you're only as big as your fanbase and at the moment judging attendance's we're probably 35th if I'm flattering us.

If its potential fan base then probably early 20's. Maybe upper championship.

Nonleagueherewecome · Sep 30, 2012

Nah, loads of clubs move from their "true level". Just watch The Big Match Revisited on ITV4 every week and you'll see plenty of evidence. This week we had Luton battling clear from the top flight relegation zone (thanks partly to a cracking assist by Kirk Stephens ), whilst Chelsea dropped into the drop-zone in the third tier (L1 in modern parlance). Luton are now in the BSP, Chelsea at the top of the Premiership. I'd say that Chelsea's "true level" is lower half of the top-flight; Luton's is mid-table Championship.

And don't get me started on Fulham, Wigan, Reading, etc.

Nonleagueherewecome · Sep 30, 2012

Although I will agree with the OP that Swindon's true level is L1: I lived with a Swindon fan at Uni, he said that they always won L2 whenever they were relegated to it, but there was a 50/50 chance of relegation or promotion whenever in L1, they rarely stayed in it. Kinda the anti-Coventry in terms of dynamism..

Black6Osprey · Sep 30, 2012

If you look at crowd averages for 2011/12 there were 29 teams in England that averaged over 19000. I remember this being about our average in the last few seasons of the Premier League so if I'm being generous we could squeeze into the top 30 if we were getting our highest level of support, but how many other teams who got around 15,000 last season would get well over 20,000 if they got to the Premier? So I still say about 35th seems right to me.

the_ferret · Sep 30, 2012

Black6Osprey said:
If you look at crowd averages for 2011/12 there were 29 teams in England that averaged over 19000. I remember this being about our average in the last few seasons of the Premier League so if I'm being generous we could squeeze into the top 30 if we were getting our highest level of support, but how many other teams who got around 15,000 last season would get well over 20,000 if they got to the Premier? So I still say about 35th seems right to me.

35th? My there is some nonsense in this thread. Somebody please close it and put it out its misery. We averaged nearly 22000 in the championship just a few seasons ago. Highest level of support? How far do you want to go back? 67/68 we averaged 34,000 - that's more people than the Ricoh can hold.

Swindon? They are on a massive upwards spiral, we are at our lowest ebb in decades and we still get more than them. There are at least 6 clubs in the PL who we would get higher averages than if we were there.

If attendances are the true gauge of size (not saying it is btw), then you have to take a look over a long period, not take a silly snapshot and draw meaning from it.

The all time list:

Sick Boy · Sep 30, 2012

I can remember attendances of 9000 in the mid 90's at Highfield Road.

We are certainly not one of the 20 biggest clubs in the country. Pre-Jimmy Hill we certainly were not, this is why many people say we punched above our weight for so long.

lordsummerisle · Sep 30, 2012

How accurate is that attendences list, and when does it go up to, and when from?

Bit surprised, no matter how long it is to find Forest, Derby and Ipswich below us on that.

Always been well supported fairly consistently as long as I can remember.

Evans020 · Sep 30, 2012

Coventry city lie 16 the in a table of overall top flight points..above sheff utd and sheff Wednesday..the table I seen goes back to WW2..that's 67 years .I think a lot of our fans under estimate how big ccfc are really.and with succes we potentially could be a pretty big club.
Theirs 320,000 people in Coventry lying in wait to support a good successful local team..
Sad but true

the_ferret · Sep 30, 2012

Sick Boy said:
I can remember attendances of 9000 in the mid 90's at Highfield Road.

We are certainly not one of the 20 biggest clubs in the country. Pre-Jimmy Hill we certainly were not, this is why many people say we punched above our weight for so long.

We only ever got one league attendance of less than 10,000 from 92/93 onwards. Some people have terrible memories. Oh, and in 1993/94 Chelsea had a gate of 8000 in the Premier League (against us actually). Quoting shit gates from a time when shit gates were common everywhere is pointless.

In 1990 Manchester United had a crowd of 23000 against Wimbledon. Different times.

Baginton · Sep 30, 2012

saw this on wiki, quite an acheivement ... Most consecutive games without scoring: 11, Coventry City (Second Division, 1919–20)

Evans020 · Sep 30, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
How accurate is that attendences list, and when does it go up to, and when from?

Bit surprised, no matter how long it is to find Forest, Derby and Ipswich below us on that.

Always been well supported fairly consistently as long as I can remember.

Coventry had very big gates in the 50s and 60s

skyblueinBaku · Sep 30, 2012

Evans020 said:
Coventry had very big gates in the 50s and 60s

Yeah. In those days, you could tell when we scored from the noise the crowd made - and this from outside our house in Harper Road; quite a way from the Highfield Road ground.

lordsummerisle · Sep 30, 2012

Evans020 said:
Coventry city lie 16 the in a table of overall top flight points..above sheff utd and sheff Wednesday..the table I seen goes back to WW2..that's 67 years .I think a lot of our fans under estimate how big ccfc are really.and with succes we potentially could be a pretty big club.
Theirs 320,000 people in Coventry lying in wait to support a good successful local team..
Sad but true

Unfortunately points don't make prizes, only finished in the top 6 once in the last 45 or so years whichever League we've been playing in.

In our entire existence we have had one FA Cup win to our name, plus some lower league wins.

Attendences, points averages, mean nothing if no silverware to go with it.

That is why we're in the mid-ranks of clubs.

Willy waving about who's the biggest club means nothing to me anyway, still my club, but a bit more realism and humility from some of our supporters might make it a bit more of an enjoyable experience for all, rather than harking after a return to some lost days of glory that never existed anyway.

the_ferret · Sep 30, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
How accurate is that attendences list, and when does it go up to, and when from?

Bit surprised, no matter how long it is to find Forest, Derby and Ipswich below us on that.

Always been well supported fairly consistently as long as I can remember.

The list is not 100% accurate because attendance records go back further for certain clubs, but it is a good guide.

Forest had some barren spells - in the 50s Notts County were better supported. Derby County have had very up and down support over the years. About the time we were averaging 34,000 they were averaging 15,000. Ipswich have never been well supported apart from a couple of purple patches. Our average is definitely boosted by late 60s early 70s though.

Evans020 · Sep 30, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
Unfortunately points don't make prizes, only finished in the top 6 once in the last 45 or so years whichever League we've been playing in.

In our entire existence we have had one FA Cup win to our name, plus some lower league wins.

Attendences, points averages, mean nothing if no silverware to go with it.

That is why we're in the mid-ranks of clubs.

Willy waving about who's the biggest club means nothing to me anyway, still my club, but a bit more realism and humility from some of our supporters might make it a bit more of an enjoyable experience for all, rather than harking after a return to some lost days of glory that never existed anyway.

Staying in the top flight for 34 years has to mean something.because we won nothing means nothing..we were unlucky to not get to 2 league cup finals .either way we stayed their.I hear people say reading, Cardiff, Southampton are bigger than Cov..personally none of these teams are.either way people should be proud of our history..only 5-6 teams had top flight stints longer than us..and in regards to fan base I think the 45 year no top 6 stat explains that.

Sick Boy · Sep 30, 2012

the_ferret said:
We only ever got one league attendance of less than 10,000 from 92/93 onwards. Some people have terrible memories. Oh, and in 1993/94 Chelsea had a gate of 8000 in the Premier League (against us actually). Quoting shit gates from a time when shit gates were common everywhere is pointless.

In 1990 Manchester United had a crowd of 23000 against Wimbledon. Different times.

Can you tell me what the one game was?

Sick Boy · Sep 30, 2012

Evans020 said:
Coventry city lie 16 the in a table of overall top flight points..above sheff utd and sheff Wednesday..the table I seen goes back to WW2..that's 67 years .I think a lot of our fans under estimate how big ccfc are really.and with succes we potentially could be a pretty big club.
Theirs 320,000 people in Coventry lying in wait to support a good successful local team..
Sad but true

There is no way we are the 16th biggest club in the country. In 10 years time when our stint in the topflight is an more distant memory, people will certainly not consider CCFC as a big club.

Nonleagueherewecome · Sep 30, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
Unfortunately points don't make prizes, only finished in the top 6 once in the last 45 or so years whichever League we've been playing in.

In our entire existence we have had one FA Cup win to our name, plus some lower league wins.

Attendences, points averages, mean nothing if no silverware to go with it.

That is why we're in the mid-ranks of clubs.

Willy waving about who's the biggest club means nothing to me anyway, still my club, but a bit more realism and humility from some of our supporters might make it a bit more of an enjoyable experience for all, rather than harking after a return to some lost days of glory that never existed anyway.

If it's all about what we've won, are we therefore a bigger club than any club that has never won the F.A. Cup or League Title? So we're still bigger than Wigan?

lordsummerisle · Sep 30, 2012

Evans020 said:
Staying in the top flight for 34 years has to mean something.because we won nothing means nothing..we were unlucky to not get to 2 league cup finals .either way we stayed their.I hear people say reading, Cardiff, Southampton are bigger than Cov..personally none of these teams are.either way people should be proud of our history..only 5-6 teams had top flight stints longer than us..and in regards to fan base I think the 45 year no top 6 stat explains that.

45 years no top 6 explains why we're not a big club.

Can't see why we can't just enjoy and support the club regardless of where we are.

As some said above used to have some very big crowds in the 50's and 60's, but no expectation of winning anything particularly, and had never been in the top flight before 1967.

Just enjoy it whatever the level and don't get hung up on the fact that we hung on by our bootstraps to top flight status without really leaving a mark except for longevity.

Skybluefaz · Sep 30, 2012

these things are organic aren't they? Swansea, Fulham and Wigan and Reading all find themselves as top flight clubs when I was a lad they were 2nd and 3rd division clubs. We are what we are.

the_ferret · Sep 30, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
If it's all about what we've won, are we therefore a bigger club than any club that has never won the F.A. Cup or League Title? So we're still bigger than Wigan?

And Leicester and Birmingham is we're judging it on FA Cup and League titles.

lordsummerisle · Sep 30, 2012

Nonleagueherewecome said:
If it's all about what we've won, are we therefore a bigger club than any club that has never won the F.A. Cup or League Title? So we're still bigger than Wigan?

Obviously bigger than Wigan, but many teams such as Huddersfield, Blackpool and Preston way above us on honours, but doubt many would place us above them on here.

The Royal Engineers and Old Etonians were shit hot too.

stupot07 · Sep 30, 2012

theprince said:
I think a successful Aston Villa would be 7th or 8th. They have a huge fan base but like us in a way haven't really achieved anything like their potential for years and with the arabs and oligarts throwing money at certain clubs they are pushed downwards. Chelsea and Man City have leap frogged them but if Villa had a team like either of those two Villa park would be a sell out every match you can't say that at Chelski or Man City.
I remember Villa in division three and division two getting 50000 crowds regular, that was in the mid 70s.

Order of clubs in my opinion would be :
Manchester United
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham
Chelski
Manchester City
Aston Villa
Newcastle
Everton
Sunderland

What have villa done to be above Everton?

the_ferret · Sep 30, 2012

Sick Boy said:
Can you tell me what the one game was?

It was against Wimbledon in the early to mid 90s. Can't remember the year off the top of my head.

How big a club are we? (4 Viewers)

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