Hillsborough fans unlawfully killed (1 Viewer)

clint van damme · Apr 26, 2016

my thorough admiration and respect to the families and their supporters who have campaigned for so long against lies, smears and collusion while trying to find the truth of what happened to their loved ones.

I hope this verdict helps them find some closure.

Whatever you think of LFC, (and personally I can't stand the club), it could have been any set of fans that this happened to and the authorities would have behaved the same because working class football supporters are vermin in their eyes.

Bumberclart · Apr 26, 2016

Agree with all the above.
Question is, what happens next. Does Duckenfield stand trial? Do his superiors stand trial for orchestrating the cover up?

clint van damme · Apr 26, 2016

Bumberclart said:
Agree with all the above.
Question is, what happens next. Does Duckenfield stand trial? Do his superiors stand trial for orchestrating the cover up?

files to be passed to the CPS.

rob9872 · Apr 26, 2016

Cover up a disgrace and police clearly at fault, should be held accountable. The only thing I cant understand is that the fans have been completely exonerated. Awful decision to open the gate, bad stadium design and horrible set of circumstances, but fans all pushing outside some without tickets, will surely have had some bearing on that.

Hopefully closure now for the families and their unwavering efforts. Will Kelvin McKenzie now apologise?

Moff · Apr 26, 2016

A rightful verdict, but sadly this was Football Policing in the 80's, poorly run, little training and poepl like Duckenfield who wasnt up to the task in charge.

Aside from the fact Duckenfiled and those above were incompetent, the FA are complicit in allowing the game to be at a stadium that wasnt up to it, whilst the Government who guide the Police a lot on what they should be doing, were obvioulsy happy to sit back and let Football Policing continue in that fashion without thought for the consequences.

This is more than about one mans ill judged actions, (although his controlling over the whole situation led to such tragic events) there should be thought into why wasnt he properly trained, where was the contingency planning, why wasnt the operation better planned etc, this goes well over and above Duckenfield to both the top echelons of South Yorkshire Police, the FA and the Home Office.

Macca · Apr 26, 2016

Moff said:
A rightful verdict, but sadly this was Football Policing in the 80's, poorly run, little training and poepl like Duckenfield who wasnt up to the task in charge.

Aside from the fact Duckenfiled and those above were incompetent, the FA are complicit in allowing the game to be at a stadium that wasnt up to it, whilst the Government who guide the Police a lot on what they should be doing, were obvioulsy happy to sit back and let Football Policing continue in that fashion without thought for the consequences.

This is more than about one mans ill judged actions, (although his controlling over the whole situation led to such tragic events) there should be thought into why wasnt he properly trained, where was the contingency planning, why wasnt the operation better planned etc, this goes well over and above Duckenfield to both the top echelons of South Yorkshire Police, the FA and the Home Office.

Agree with all of this, lets not forget the noble hooligan forms whose behaviour week in week out led to football being policed in such an over agressive manner

rob9872 · Apr 26, 2016

Noble firms like Liverpool themselves you mean Macca? The ones who stopped City having a European adventure in 87 due to Heysel? They don't seem to be banging on about justice for Heysel though.

clint van damme · Apr 26, 2016

rob9872 said:
Noble firms like Liverpool themselves you mean Macca? The ones who stopped City having a European adventure in 87 due to Heysel? They don't seem to be banging on about justice for Heysel though.

Has there ever been any suggestion that Liverpool supporters weren't responsible for Heysel? 26 people were charged with manslaughter.

A sizable amount of Liverpool supporters behaved disgracefully that night.

A sizable amount of the police, media and politicians involved in the Hillsborough cover up have behaved disgracefully for 27 years.

And lets remember, it was nearly us in 1987 at the quarter final, it was nearly Leeds in the 1987 semi final, don't you think they would have smeared us or Leeds and tried to cover it up in the same manner?

rob9872 · Apr 26, 2016

Not disputing anything you've said there (and I congratulated them higher up the thread), simply pointing out that two wrongs rarely make a right and that they are partially culpable for their own downfall (fences being installed) which is forgotten in all of this euphoria.

Incidentally how many (if any) of the fans were jailed for Heysel? According to what I could find only 14 of the 27 were convicted and at least half of those only suspended sentences.

clint van damme · Apr 26, 2016

rob9872 said:
Incidentally how many (if any) of the fans were jailed for Heysel? According to what I could find only 14 of the 27 were convicted and at least half of those only suspended sentences.

I'm not sure what relevance this has. They were tried and sentenced. If you're intimating that the sentences weren't severe enough I'd tend to agree but that is an issue for the Belgium justice system.

The Heysel victims families weren't lied to by the authorities, they weren't victims of a state cover up for 27 years which is what this is all about.

I reiterate, this could have happened to any clubs supporters and the response of the government, the police and the red tops would have been the same.

Grendel · Apr 26, 2016

clint van damme said:
I'm not sure what relevance this has. They were tried and sentenced. If you're intimating that the sentences weren't severe enough I'd tend to agree but that is an issue for the Belgium justice system.

The Heysel victims families weren't lied to by the authorities, they weren't victims of a state cover up for 27 years which is what this is all about.

I reiterate, this could have happened to any clubs supporters and the response of the government, the police and the red tops would have been the same.

I don't want to get embroiled in this but I have to ask - do you think the end was overcrowded and if so why?

clint van damme · Apr 26, 2016

Grendel said:
I don't want to get embroiled in this but I have to ask - do you think the end was overcrowded and if so why?

There's plenty of documentary footage available that covers it better than I can but some of the points proven in the inquest are:

No way of monitoring how many fans were entering the ground.

Fans herded into the centre pens when there was room in the side pens, (if we hadn't been allowed into the side pens in 1987 quarter final we'd have been fucked. I'm over 6 foot tall and was getting tossed around like a rag doll).

Opening the main gates ad allowing fans to surge in prior to kick off.

lifeskyblue · Apr 26, 2016

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/main-section/part-2/chapter-1/page-8/

Chapter 1 of the report focuses on the 1987 semi....and the lessons that were not learned from.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Macca · Apr 26, 2016

Anyone who was involved in the behaviour that caused fences to be erected and turned match days into a major police operation have to shoulder the blame. 87 was scarey for sure but so were many other games. Difficult to imagine standing bearly able to move these days

Macca · Apr 26, 2016

I imagine the first thought of everyone that day was that it was kicking off. Certainly what I thought at the time, so frequent was it. I can understand the mistakes made if not the cover up

chiefdave · Apr 26, 2016

Macca said:
I imagine the first thought of everyone that day was that it was kicking off. Certainly what I thought at the time, so frequent was it. I can understand the mistakes made if not the cover up

Exactly, its one thing to make mistakes. Its a whole other thing to start lying and covering it up. And even if then was there any need for the stuff about pickpocketing and similar.

Gazolba · Apr 27, 2016

clint van damme said:
[h=1]Hillsborough fans unlawfully killed[/h]

Can you lawfully kill someone in the UK?

1940oldfive · Apr 27, 2016

Moff said:
A rightful verdict, but sadly this was Football Policing in the 80's, poorly run, little training and poepl like Duckenfield who wasnt up to the task in charge.

Aside from the fact Duckenfiled and those above were incompetent, the FA are complicit in allowing the game to be at a stadium that wasnt up to it, whilst the Government who guide the Police a lot on what they should be doing, were obvioulsy happy to sit back and let Football Policing continue in that fashion without thought for the consequences.

This is more than about one mans ill judged actions, (although his controlling over the whole situation led to such tragic events) there should be thought into why wasnt he properly trained, where was the contingency planning, why wasnt the operation better planned etc, this goes well over and above Duckenfield to both the top echelons of South Yorkshire Police, the FA and the Home Office.

What about the bitch that had the fences built? does she have to carry any of the blame,also the people who died at Bradford. All this because of her hatred for the working classes. Hope she rots in hell.

clint van damme · Apr 27, 2016

Gazolba said:
Can you lawfully kill someone in the UK?

the police can, but in this case they killed them unlawfully.

Macca · Apr 27, 2016

1940oldfive said:
What about the bitch that had the fences built? does she have to carry any of the blame,also the people who died at Bradford. All this because of her hatred for the working classes. Hope she rots in hell.

What came first, hooliganism or fences?

clint van damme · Apr 27, 2016

Macca said:
What came first, hooliganism or fences?

so the fact that hooliganism caused fences to be erected means police incompetence and the ensuing cover up were justified.

What a simple world you live in.

Pipehitterz · Apr 27, 2016

my take

worst thing that could happen to all parties happened to all parties

people losing lives

badly designed statia

inexperience in policing and government task forces

police covering each others backs , equally supporters blinding the truths of their own past actions

this was the culmination of years and years of unease in football, nobody really knew what would happen next, and nobody really came out of this smelling of roses,

if my dad had been a policeman back then, im sure he would have been taking orders and been very scared, the man or men at the top were only doing what they thought would help, the pressure was there to see and disaster struck

i for one do not want to see anyone , in their 70's , get put in jail, what would be the point right?

families should be rewarded through criminal payouts, and a line should be drawn under it snd we can all pray it doesnt happen anywhere again

clint van damme · Apr 27, 2016

"i for one do not want to see anyone , in their 70's , get put in jail, what would be the point right?"

I tend to agree. Duckenfield was out of his depth but his superiors shouldn't have put him in that position, (the semi final was the first event he supervised at Hillsborough which is madness as it was the biggest that year).

I might feel different if I was a victims family member though.

crowsnest · Apr 27, 2016

clint van damme said:
"i for one do not want to see anyone , in their 70's , get put in jail, what would be the point right?"

I tend to agree. Duckenfield was out of his depth but his superiors shouldn't have put him in that position, (the semi final was the first event he supervised at Hillsborough which is madness as it was the biggest that year).

I might feel different if I was a victims family member though.

Agree with you about being the wrong person in charge.
But why did the council / FA hold the game there when there was no safety certificate (same in 87)
Why did Sheff Wed not spend money on the safety measures required to get the safety certificate, that would of possibly changed the outcome.

However, he should face charges for the massive cover up after the event knowing that he opened the gate - it was not broken down by supporters.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Apr 27, 2016

crowsnest said:
However, he should face charges for the massive cover up after the event knowing that he opened the gate - it was not broken down by supporters.

Correct.....He fucking knew full well he dropped a massive bollock immediately, but instead of trying to rectify it, re-arrange the ample man-power he had at his disposal etc. & actually try & save some fucking lives, He chose the lying cowards way out & instantly spoke to the press, while fans were still dying, blaming those fans for forcing a gate......

He was not just incompetent & grossly negligent.....he was a devious lying cowardly c**t & should face the full weight of the law....hopefully resulting in a prison term....preferably in HMP Walton.

Justice for 96!

Moff · Apr 27, 2016

1940oldfive said:
What about the bitch that had the fences built? does she have to carry any of the blame,also the people who died at Bradford. All this because of her hatred for the working classes. Hope she rots in hell.

If you read my post, it also criticises the government.

fernandopartridge · Apr 27, 2016

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Correct.....He fucking knew full well he dropped a massive bollock immediately, but instead of trying to rectify it, re-arrange the ample man-power he had at his disposal etc. & actually try & save some fucking lives, He chose the lying cowards way out & instantly spoke to the press, while fans were still dying, blaming those fans for forcing a gate......

He was not just incompetent & grossly negligent.....he was a devious lying cowardly c**t & should face the full weight of the law....hopefully resulting in a prison term....preferably in HMP Walton.

Justice for 96!

Agreed; Manslaughter and perverting the course of justice. I am very suspicious about the length of time it is taking the police to investigate the police.......

fernandopartridge · Apr 27, 2016

Pipehitterz said:
my take

worst thing that could happen to all parties happened to all parties

people losing lives

badly designed statia

inexperience in policing and government task forces

police covering each others backs , equally supporters blinding the truths of their own past actions

this was the culmination of years and years of unease in football, nobody really knew what would happen next, and nobody really came out of this smelling of roses,

if my dad had been a policeman back then, im sure he would have been taking orders and been very scared, the man or men at the top were only doing what they thought would help, the pressure was there to see and disaster struck

i for one do not want to see anyone , in their 70's , get put in jail, what would be the point right?

families should be rewarded through criminal payouts, and a line should be drawn under it snd we can all pray it doesnt happen anywhere again

All that does, it tells a copper it's OK to lie under oath as you'll get away with it. The taxpayer (i.e. including the victims' families) will cover the bill.

Covstu · Apr 27, 2016

For me, he needs to face the music regardless of his age. The cover up is inexcusable and for many years these poor fans were given a bad name. Thankfully their names have been cleared.

eastwoodsdustman · Apr 27, 2016

I think the fact that He's lied and covered up evidence is disgusting and he should be prosecuted for this and not for the deaths of the fans that died.
The disaster itself was was a perfect storm scenario with a poorly designed ground, thousands piling in late and poor coordination from the police. No one knew what would unfold when the gates were opened. I'm fairly sure that had the gates not been opened then people would have been crushed outside the ground or at best a riot ensuing and so the office in charge probably did so with the best intentions.
Mistakes were made and steps taken to prevent it happening again. It was different times and I really can't see how modern logic and attitudes being applied to stuff that took place a long time ago is going to help.Time to move on now I think.

Joy Division · Apr 27, 2016

Duckenfield also had the power to delay the kick off but refused to do so.

Houchens Head · Apr 27, 2016

Pipehitterz said:
i for one do not want to see anyone , in their 70's , get put in jail, what would be the point right?

So you disagree with the sentencing of people like Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris and (if he'd been alive,) Jimmy Saville? They're all over 70. What would you like to see? A fifty quid fine and a slap on the wrist? And don't say, it's a different crime.
Justice is blind to age. If it takes 20, 30 or 40 years to be seen to be done, then the punishment should fit the crime.

Pipehitterz · Apr 27, 2016

dont talk wet

Pipehitterz · Apr 27, 2016

eastwoodsdustman said:
I think the fact that He's lied and covered up evidence is disgusting and he should be prosecuted for this and not for the deaths of the fans that died.
The disaster itself was was a perfect storm scenario with a poorly designed ground, thousands piling in late and poor coordination from the police. No one knew what would unfold when the gates were opened. I'm fairly sure that had the gates not been opened then people would have been crushed outside the ground or at best a riot ensuing and so the office in charge probably did so with the best intentions.
Mistakes were made and steps taken to prevent it happening again. It was different times and I really can't see how modern logic and attitudes being applied to stuff that took place a long time ago is going to help.Time to move on now I think.

the inquest didnt prove this
equally it couldnt prove anyone was drunk

they had to deal in facts, and the fact is, the police opened the gates, and thats why theyre blamed

there are 2 private investigations thats covering the cover ups, but these will never be resolved imo because of nil proof

fernandopartridge · Apr 27, 2016

Pipehitterz said:
the inquest didnt prove this
equally it couldnt prove anyone was drunk

they had to deal in facts, and the fact is, the police opened the gates, and thats why theyre blamed

there are 2 private investigations thats covering the cover ups, but these will never be resolved imo because of nil proof

Duckinfield himself admitted to the investigation that he'd lied in his earlier account where he'd stated that fans forced the gates open.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-31821211

I hope he's convicted and gets a spell in jail, hopefully an uncomfortable one too for a 'man' of his age.

Hillsborough fans unlawfully killed (1 Viewer)

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