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hell will freeze over... (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter torchomatic
  • Start date Jan 20, 2015
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Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #211
stupot07 said:
bad mouth ACL and here come's MMM :claping hands:

Click to expand...

If you read back I've been critical in this thread; but think you've got to choose your battles. I think this one is wrong. The link I put above is from the spring of 2014. Think about that and the context of the CCC loan
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #212
Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Into 2014, Lucas would be reliant upon and quoting this sort of data, no?

http://www.coventryobserver.co.uk/2...able-despite-football-club-turmoil-98783.html
Click to expand...

Yes but according to that article the profit was .75m which would have included a draw down from the escrow wouldn't it? Would also have included F&B from our games as we were still playing there. Could also have made an allowance for money owed by CCFC, not sure how that would have been accounted for as their must have been at least a suspicion it wouldn't be received. So how confidently on the basis of that could you state with absolute certainty that ACL would make a profit once we moved to Sixfields?

Just as well they had the bail out as even with us still playing there and the Olmypics taking place the accounts wouldn't have looked too healthy without it!
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #213
chiefdave said:
Yes but according to that article the profit was .75m which would have included a draw down from the escrow wouldn't it? Would also have included F&B from our games as we were still playing there. Could also have made an allowance for money owed by CCFC, not sure how that would have been accounted for as their must have been at least a suspicion it wouldn't be received. So how confidently on the basis of that could you state with absolute certainty that ACL would make a profit once we moved to Sixfields?

Just as well they had the bail out as even with us still playing there and the Olmypics taking place the accounts wouldn't have looked too healthy without it!
Click to expand...

The claim is that the Olympics hindered other events being held. Anyway. Let me ask you a question.

Were those accounts profitable?
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #214
Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
The claim is that the Olympics hindered other events being held. Anyway. Let me ask you a question.

Were those accounts profitable?
Click to expand...

So in March 2014, near enough the end of the 2013/14 financial year ACL's shareholders wouldn't have had any financial information for they financial year, and would use the 2012/13 accounts (when ccfc was there, profiting from F&B's, escrow payments, etc plus olympics, coldplay, etc) to state they ACL are thriving and profitable without the football club?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 22, 2015
  • #215
stupot07 said:
So in March 2014, near enough the end of the 2013/14 financial year ACL's shareholders wouldn't have had any financial information for they financial year, and would use the 2012/13 accounts (when ccfc was there, profiting from F&B's, escrow payments, etc plus olympics, coldplay, etc) to state they ACL are thriving and profitable without the football club?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
Click to expand...

Any politician will portray the situation in a positive light. ACL were being distressed by SISU, as judged in court, and in the face of this aggression, any politician will put a slant on it. In 2014, she's not lying to make reference to the last set of audited accounts if she believes it shows that ACL are standing up to SISU's aggression.

With regards the loan, agreed in January 13. The audited accounts would have been 11/12, which were good. The management accounts would have been those that latterly became engrossed in the 12/13, the performance of which is shown on the link. Again, decent. At the point in time of agreeing to the loan, the prognosis would have been decent. Which is exactly what the JR judge stated in his '40 year' summary. As such, nothing to moan about here either
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #216
Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Any politician will portray the situation in a positive light. ACL were being distressed by SISU, as judged in court, and in the face of this aggression, any politician will put a slant on it. In 2014, she's not lying to make reference to the last set of audited accounts if she believes it shows that ACL are standing up to SISU's aggression.

With regards the loan, agreed in January 13. The audited accounts would have been 11/12, which were good. The management accounts would have been those that latterly became engrossed in the 12/13, the performance of which is shown on the link. Again, decent. At the point in time of agreeing to the loan, the prognosis would have been decent. Which is exactly what the JR judge stated in his '40 year' summary. As such, nothing to moan about here either
Click to expand...

The reality is this company was liable to a loan, a substantial loan, which if it defaulted on would impact the taxpayer.

Frankly if she saw her duty to merely observe audited accounts annually it raises serious questions regarding her competence.

Given that key directors of the company are associated with the council it defies any credibility anyway this was the case.

If the argument is she believed it was profitable then again she has to face issues as to why she then conducted a sale significantly below the valuation in 2013.

Ultimately her position is indefensible either way.
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #217
Grendel said:
The reality is this company was liable to a loan, a substantial loan, which if it defaulted on would impact the taxpayer.

Frankly if she saw her duty to merely observe audited accounts annually it raises serious questions regarding her competence.

Given that key directors of the company are associated with the council it defies any credibility anyway this was the case.

If the argument is she believed it was profitable then again she has to face issues as to why she then conducted a sale significantly below the valuation in 2013.

Ultimately her position is indefensible either way.
Click to expand...

No. You are using retrospective wisdom to judge the decision made with the benefit of hindsight. Her view at the time was shared by the JR judge, who agreed with her prognosis.

As someone who asserted that SISU were the only game in town, scoffed at the idea of a rugby team playing a significant part in the Ricoh's fortunes, saw an Average League One rent as being the stumbling block to all ills, and described Fisher at the best CEO we'd had in years - I'd have thought you in anyone's would have more sympathy for those who's view of the world looks foolish when events move on...
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #218
Grendel said:
The reality is this company was liable to a loan, a substantial loan, which if it defaulted on would impact the taxpayer.

Frankly if she saw her duty to merely observe audited accounts annually it raises serious questions regarding her competence.

Given that key directors of the company are associated with the council it defies any credibility anyway this was the case.

If the argument is she believed it was profitable then again she has to face issues as to why she then conducted a sale significantly below the valuation in 2013.

Ultimately her position is indefensible either way.
Click to expand...


What happened to the grendull who didn't care about the tax payer when he thought SISU had a chance of getting the Ricoh at the expense of the taxpayer. All of a sudden it's all about the taxpayer. How times change.
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #219
Similar to Higgs. You and others were bleating about a poor charity and the little orphans that would lose out if we bought into the Arena, yet not a peep when London Wasps' Holdings bought it for a song.

Funny old world.

skybluetony176 said:
What happened to the grendull who didn't care about the tax payer when he thought SISU had a chance of getting the Ricoh at the expense of the taxpayer. All of a sudden it's all about the taxpayer. How times change.
Click to expand...
 

lordsummerisle

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #220
skybluetony176 said:
What happened to the grendull who didn't care about the tax payer when he thought SISU had a chance of getting the Ricoh at the expense of the taxpayer. All of a sudden it's all about the taxpayer. How times change.
Click to expand...

Changed the other way considerably too.

Not seeing the outrage at loss to local taxpayers and a local childrens charity that there was previously.
 

lordsummerisle

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #221
torchomatic said:
Similar to Higgs. You and others were bleating about a poor charity and the little orphans that would lose out if we bought into the Arena, yet not a peep when London Wasps' Holdings bought it for a song.

Funny old world.
Click to expand...


Beat me to it!

Outrage, whether over this, or "clubs being ripped from their fans and community", seems to be very mutable.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #222
torchomatic said:
Similar to Higgs. You and others were bleating about a poor charity and the little orphans that would lose out if we bought into the Arena, yet not a peep when London Wasps' Holdings bought it for a song.

Funny old world.
Click to expand...

Not at all like that. For it to be like that I'd have to be saying that Higgs got a great deal compared to what SISU offered. Only I haven't been saying that have I? Whereas your mate has gone from I don't care about the taxpayer to its all about the taxpayer. After months and months of telling everyone its a worthless white elephant you'd think he'd be applauding AL for getting as much as she did for a worthless white elephant. Yes, you're right. It is a funny old world.
 

Moff

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #223
skybluetony176 said:
you'd think he'd be applauding AL for getting as much as she did. Yes, you're right. It is a funny old world.
Click to expand...

Its a funny old world that someone can put in print that Ann Lucas the stupid bitch should be applauded. Yes lets applaud her for selling the stadium for a snip, I bet all the people at the Council who are losing jobs and the local residents who are suffering cuts to their local services will be arranging the street parties, bunting and flag's now, all in honour of good old Ann.
 
M

martcov

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #224
Moff said:
Its a funny old world that someone can put in print that Ann Lucas the stupid bitch should be applauded. Yes lets applaud her for selling the stadium for a snip, I bet all the people at the Council who are losing jobs and the local residents who are suffering cuts to their local services will be arranging the street parties, bunting and flag's now, all in honour of good old Ann.
Click to expand...

Yes, but you have taken that Part of Tony's post out of context. There is the argument, that so long as the loan repayments are met, she has off loaded a potential white elephant thus saving money for the poor taxpayers. It is too early to say that it was a snip, but under the circumstances there wasn't much room for manoeuvre. Whatever happens, it is not a question of a great achievement, but rather of a lesser disaster. If the repayments are at some time not met, then we have a problem, or rather the old problem comes back to haunt us.
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #225
My mate?! Jeez, Tony. As for the taxpayer thing, take it up with Grendel, he mentioned it not me. I was just pointing out the..erm..inconsistencies around these parts.

skybluetony176 said:
Not at all like that. For it to be like that I'd have to be saying that Higgs got a great deal compared to what SISU offered. Only I haven't been saying that have I? Whereas your mate has gone from I don't care about the taxpayer to its all about the taxpayer. After months and months of telling everyone its a worthless white elephant you'd think he'd be applauding AL for getting as much as she did for a worthless white elephant. Yes, you're right. It is a funny old world.
Click to expand...
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #226
lordsummerisle said:
Beat me to it!

Outrage, whether over this, or "clubs being ripped from their fans and community", seems to be very mutable.
Click to expand...

Selective 'community sport' outrage runs both ways. As a gent with a penchant for a spot of rugby, I lose count of the number of people who didn't 'give a fuck about egg-chasing' when I mentioned it as a Sixfields attendance alternative; who are now lecturing me on the issue. Brilliant!
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #227
Absolutely. She's given the whole shebang to a loss making company. Totally the opposite to what she said she would do. Then again, she's said a lot of things and meant/done the total opposite.

martcov said:
If the repayments are at some time not met, then we have a problem, or rather the old problem comes back to haunt us.
Click to expand...
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #228
torchomatic said:
Absolutely. She's given the whole shebang to a loss making company. Totally the opposite to what she said she would do. Then again, she's said a lot of things and meant/done the total opposite.
Click to expand...

Loss making? Now? I don't think so. Watch what happens with the Leinster game and Lucas will have every right to laugh in your face. You may not like it, but it's true
 

lordsummerisle

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #229
Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Selective 'community sport' outrage runs both ways. As a gent with a penchant for a spot of rugby, I lose count of the number of people who didn't 'give a fuck about egg-chasing' when I mentioned it as a Sixfields attendance alternative; who are now lecturing me on the issue. Brilliant!
Click to expand...

To be fair, there's more "both ways" action on here than on x-hamster.
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #230
I didn't realise one swallow made a summer. Let's not look short term, eh MMM. I'm sure you're now the kind of guy to do that. Let's see what happens over the next few years, eh?

Losses of £3M, yes good crowds now, but once those freebies run out...still you, the Trust and Italia will keep coming on here and telling us how wonderful they are. Look forward to it.

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Loss making? Now? I don't think so. Watch what happens with the Leinster game and Lucas will have every right to laugh in your face. You may not like it, but it's true
Click to expand...
 

lewys33

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #231
Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Loss making? Now? I don't think so. Watch what happens with the Leinster game and Lucas will have every right to laugh in your face. You may not like it, but it's true
Click to expand...

Yh the Irish are mad spenders torch. Soon the Ricoh seats will be real gold!
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #232
That'll be it then. The Land Of Milk And Honey Arena.

lewys33 said:
Yh the Irish are mad spenders torch. Soon the Ricoh seats will be real gold!
Click to expand...
 

Calista

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #233
Moff said:
Its a funny old world that someone can put in print that Ann Lucas the stupid bitch should be applauded. Yes lets applaud her for selling the stadium for a snip, I bet all the people at the Council who are losing jobs and the local residents who are suffering cuts to their local services will be arranging the street parties, bunting and flag's now, all in honour of good old Ann.
Click to expand...

Tim Fisher doesn’t seem to think it’s been sold for a snip. Here’s what David Conn’s Guardian article (23/12/14) says … “City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay.”

How does that fit in with the notion that CCC have given the stadium away? The idea, held by many on here, that SISU would have gladly have matched the Wasps deal if only they’d had the chance seems like pure fantasy to me.

In a nutshell, SISU have thought (or at least tried to argue) all along that ACL is worthless, whereas Wasps think it’s a money-spinner. Time will tell, but Wasps have already made far more imaginative use of the Ricoh than we ever did, and their investment looks like a good one to me. There is now top class sport in Coventry, and some of their games will be massive, bringing in international visitors and generating hotel and restaurant business. How the Council could have achieved a better outcome for the city I don’t know - it’s just sad for CCFC fans that we cut ourselves out of the picture.
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #234
torchomatic said:
I didn't realise one swallow made a summer. Let's not look short term, eh MMM. I'm sure you're now the kind of guy to do that. Let's see what happens over the next few years, eh?

Losses of £3M, yes good crowds now, but once those freebies run out...still you, the Trust and Italia will keep coming on here and telling us how wonderful they are. Look forward to it.
Click to expand...

Given how quickly the much discussed brittle Coventry fan disappeared after the Ricoh return, Wasps are doing well. Again, I wouldn't go, but what they are doing for the Leinster game is brilliant - extra beer and catering, live music to get people there early, other games streamed to thy big screens, etc. It will be brilliant. You have the Six Nations, with Wasps players featuring, then the fervour surrounding the World Cup to help boost season ticket sales. Look at what Eastwood did at the RFU - he really is no mug.

Taking the line that Wasps will be, or are a failure will lead you to disappointment in my view. Doesn't mean I'm pro-Wasps; just giving you my opinion as to the practical situation
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #235
The council's former 'Assistant Director - City Centre and Development Services' has been appointed to the ACL board. Given his background I assume some form of additional regeneration is on its way.
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #236
fernandopartridge said:
The council's former 'Assistant Director - City Centre and Development Services' has been appointed to the ACL board. Given his background I assume some form of additional regeneration is on its way.
Click to expand...

Now, this I'm with you on. Sickening cronyism. Like the leader of Rugby Borough Council. Jacks in his job as a plumber to become an estate agent (no conflict of interest with planning there, eh?), and had now been given an £80K a year job leading the Local Enterprise Partnership. On what criteria exactly?!?
 
K

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #237
Norman Lockhart said:
Tim Fisher doesn’t seem to think it’s been sold for a snip. Here’s what David Conn’s Guardian article (23/12/14) says … “City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay.”

How does that fit in with the notion that CCC have given the stadium away? The idea, held by many on here, that SISU would have gladly have matched the Wasps deal if only they’d had the chance seems like pure fantasy to me.

In a nutshell, SISU have thought (or at least tried to argue) all along that ACL is worthless, whereas Wasps think it’s a money-spinner. Time will tell, but Wasps have already made far more imaginative use of the Ricoh than we ever did, and their investment looks like a good one to me. There is now top class sport in Coventry, and some of their games will be massive, bringing in international visitors and generating hotel and restaurant business. How the Council could have achieved a better outcome for the city I don’t know - it’s just sad for CCFC fans that we cut ourselves out of the picture.
Click to expand...

Spot on, people keep going on about how ccfc wernt offered this deal by wasps well whether if that answer is a yes or a no the outcome is still the same. Sisu were not in a position or prepared to do that deal so it makes no difference.

Again with the love for wasps as I hate rugby and actual wasps they have made a seemingly good investment and top class sport in Coventry and now rugby in the West Midlands. They win and we lose. For now.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #238
Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Now, this I'm with you on. Sickening cronyism. Like the leader of Rugby Borough Council. Jacks in his job as a plumber to become an estate agent (no conflict of interest with planning there, eh?), and had now been given an £80K a year job leading the Local Enterprise Partnership. On what criteria exactly?!?
Click to expand...

Ah yes I read about that cowboy in Rugby, think it might have even made the Private Eye.

These LEPs are all full of local authority staff appointed without competition.
 

Mary_Mungo_Midge

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #239
fernandopartridge said:
Ah yes I read about that cowboy in Rugby, think it might have even made the Private Eye.

These LEPs are all full of local authority staff appointed without competition.
Click to expand...

Yes. He's the monkey who got pinged for driving without insurance, and then pinged again driving to the Police station to present documents - still without insurance....
 
A

AndreasB

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #240
Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Given how quickly the much discussed brittle Coventry fan disappeared after the Ricoh return, Wasps are doing well. Again, I wouldn't go, but what they are doing for the Leinster game is brilliant - extra beer and catering, live music to get people there early, other games streamed to thy big screens, etc. It will be brilliant. You have the Six Nations, with Wasps players featuring, then the fervour surrounding the World Cup to help boost season ticket sales. Look at what Eastwood did at the RFU - he really is no mug.

Taking the line that Wasps will be, or are a failure will lead you to disappointment in my view. Doesn't mean I'm pro-Wasps; just giving you my opinion as to the practical situation
Click to expand...


Sickening isnt it? These Wasps games feel like a real event and that couldnt be more different to the atmosphere at CCFC games that feel like just going through the motions.

Do you think Wasps could/would buy us? Is that the only realistic strategy now? There clearly isnt a white knight out there.
 

Moff

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #241
Norman Lockhart said:
Tim Fisher doesn’t seem to think it’s been sold for a snip. .
Click to expand...

Its funny how people believe what Fisher says is true when it backs up their argument, but when it doesn't he is lying.
 

Moff

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #242
martcov said:
Yes, but you have taken that Part of Tony's post out of context. There is the argument, that so long as the loan repayments are met, she has off loaded a potential white elephant thus saving money for the poor taxpayers. It is too early to say that it was a snip, but under the circumstances there wasn't much room for manoeuvre. Whatever happens, it is not a question of a great achievement, but rather of a lesser disaster. If the repayments are at some time not met, then we have a problem, or rather the old problem comes back to haunt us.
Click to expand...

Oh so when it suits it was a potential white elephant, but when Grendel said it was everyone slagged him off saying it cant have been as wasps wanted it. Jeez the hypocricy stinks!
 

Moff

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #243
Mary_Mungo_Midge said:
Loss making? Now? I don't think so. Watch what happens with the Leinster game and Lucas will have every right to laugh in your face. You may not like it, but it's true
Click to expand...

Bloody hell, I take you to be intelligent but don't let the excitement cloud your judgement. One game will make it all a huge success...I have heard it all now.

Lets see what the numbers are over the next few seasons before we get all confident about it shall we....I mean as you run a business I don't think you told all and sundry that you were a profit making success after your first sale/invoice did you?
 

lordsummerisle

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #244
torchomatic said:
That'll be it then. The Land Of Milk And Honey Arena.
Click to expand...

If it was The Land of Milfs and Honeys Arena it would be packed out every night.
 

lewys33

Well-Known Member
  • Jan 23, 2015
  • #245
Norman Lockhart said:
Tim Fisher doesn’t seem to think it’s been sold for a snip. Here’s what David Conn’s Guardian article (23/12/14) says … “City’s chief executive, Tim Fisher, insists they do not regret failing to buy the Ricoh, saying they could not agree to taking it on, as Wasps have done, not only for £5.4m but with the council’s £14m loan on the stadium still to pay.”

How does that fit in with the notion that CCC have given the stadium away? The idea, held by many on here, that SISU would have gladly have matched the Wasps deal if only they’d had the chance seems like pure fantasy to me.
Click to expand...

Well £5.4 million = £2.7 million each (CCC and Higgs). Joy offered Higgs £2 million for their share did she not? Everyone said that wasn't enough (me included). So why does everyone think 0.7 million more from a Wycombe based rugby club is acceptable (I certainly don't)? Was all the pr costs, and losses worth the 0.7 million?
 
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