General Election (2 Viewers)

clint van damme said:

we currently have tho lowest corporation tax of all the major developed nations. Corbyns proposed rise will still see it lower than USA,France and Germany.

The latter have economies that are currently performing far better than ours.

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You see things like this I can get on board with when it comes to Corbyn. I don't dismiss everything he says and personally I welcome him as an opposition leader if for no other reason than he really is in opposition so it holds the Tories to account which is how it's supposed to work unlike the Tory light Labour we've seen of recent times. However on balance he's still looney left to me.

Assuming he loses the general election I personally hope he stays prominent in politics because holding the ruling government to task is only good for government in my opinion and drives policies forward for all parties by debate. Corporation tax policy is an example of that. At the very least the Tories have to explain it and don't get a free ride. If enough people are in agreement with Corbyn this could be enough to make the Tories rethink and maybe just maybe even change policy at some point. Maybe not as far as Corbyn might go but certainly a shift in that direction.

I mean it's not like we've seen the Tories adopt a labour policy they slated in the last general election for this general election. Or have we?

skybluetony176 said:

I really don't. I think you do though. The Danes may well be spending more of their GDP on health than us although to be honest I don't really know either way but the value for money is not a % of GDP it's the quality of care. In the form of shorter waiting lists, most hospitals operate private rooms not wards, the preventative medicine as in the example I've already given rather than waiting to see who suffers they take measures to make sure people don't get to that point, you don't get the waiting on trollies in corridors scandals we get here and you don't hear of nurse's relying on food banks to live. The NHS is just one example, the schools are better, you get a university grant you don't have to loan your way through university, the countries infrastructure is better and I could go on and on.

As I've said in my previous posts, a lot of this is to do with the population size of the country but a lot of it is to do with being heavily taxed at source.

The point I was making that the Danish mentality is that is OK so long as the system works for them giving them value for money. That is the Danish mentality. It works for them because of that. We on the other hand have a different mentality so when you get one person saying this is how they do it in Denmark why won't it work here and another person saying that they have a draconian tax system they have both failed to understand the full situation in Denmark. Ones took all the positives without understanding the negatives and the other has taken the negatives without understanding the positives. It's not as black and white as either poster is trying to make out.

The Danish way could work here. Not easily because of our demographics in comparison to Denmark's but the biggest hurdle I suspect would be our attitude compared to the Danes when it comes to paying taxes.

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The quality of care is higher because they spend more. It isn't a difficult concept. For what we spend we get something very good.

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fernandopartridge said:

The quality of care is higher because they spend more. It isn't a difficult concept. For what we spend we get something very good.

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Really? Growing waiting lists? People dying on trolleys in corridors? Nurses relying on food banks? Sounds like a NHS in decline if you ask me while investment rises, not much granted but spending has increased.

It's also not that much more. Here's some figures available online.

Current health expenditure in the UK was 9.78 per cent of GDP in 2015. This compares to 16.91 per cent in the USA, 11.08 per cent in Germany, 11.01 per cent in France, 10.76 per cent in the Netherlands, 10.59 per cent in Denmark, 10.16 per cent in Canada, 9.05 per cent in Italy and 9.00 per cent in Spain.
Current expenditure per capita (using the purchasing power parity) for the UK was $4,015 in 2015. This can be compared to $9,451 in the USA, $5,343 in the Netherlands, $5,267 in Germany, $4,943 in Denmark, $4,614 in Canada, $4,415 in France, $3,272 in Italy and $3,153 in Spain.

skybluetony176 said:

Really? Growing waiting lists? People dying on trolleys in corridors? Nurses relying on food banks? Sounds like a NHS in decline if you ask me while investment rises, not much granted but spending has increased.

It's also not that much more. Here's some figures available online.

Current health expenditure in the UK was 9.78 per cent of GDP in 2015. This compares to 16.91 per cent in the USA, 11.08 per cent in Germany, 11.01 per cent in France, 10.76 per cent in the Netherlands, 10.59 per cent in Denmark, 10.16 per cent in Canada, 9.05 per cent in Italy and 9.00 per cent in Spain.
Current expenditure per capita (using the purchasing power parity) for the UK was $4,015 in 2015. This can be compared to $9,451 in the USA, $5,343 in the Netherlands, $5,267 in Germany, $4,943 in Denmark, $4,614 in Canada, $4,415 in France, $3,272 in Italy and $3,153 in Spain.

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I haven't posted for a long time but this pathetic post des

fernandopartridge said:

The UK NHS is one of the most efficient health services in Europe. The government spends less as a % of GDP on it than the most of Europe. You need to reconsider what you mean by value for money.

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CCFC is efficient too...languishing between L1&2 forever more without speculative investment.

Are you seeing parallels?

There is too much money wasted on private contracts & managing them. If the NHS is so precious to us, even the car park attendant should be NHS employed & paid at least the going rate. Make NHS jobs something to firstly aspire to & secondly covet! Even Dr's & Nurses...pay them better & increase numbers & we might have an NHS that returns to become the envy of the world...because believe me - it isn't atm

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SkyblueBazza said:

CCFC is efficient too...languishing between L1&2 forever more without speculative investment.

Are you seeing parallels?

There is too much money wasted on private contracts & managing them. If the NHS is so precious to us, even the car park attendant should be NHS employed & paid at least the going rate. Make NHS jobs something to firstly aspire to & secondly covet! Even Dr's & Nurses...pay them better & increase numbers & we might have an NHS that returns to become the envy of the world...because believe me - it isn't atm

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Yep. Spoke to one of the security guards a couple of years back - he was on about £18K at the time but his company were charging us over £30K. Even taking into account paying towards his stamp, holiday pay etc. it would work out cheaper to employ him direct. Reason is, apparently, he can be laid off now without paying redundancy.

The bloke and his colleagues are still with us and have been a fixture for longer than I can remember - it must be over 15 years since the security lads were contracted out. FFS, he'd have "paid for himself" in less than a year. He struggles to make ends meet, we're paying over the odds...and an unseen 3rd party is making money for doing virtually fuck all.

RegTheDonk said:

Yep. Spoke to one of the security guards a couple of years back - he was on about £18K at the time but his company were charging us over £30K. Even taking into account paying towards his stamp, holiday pay etc. it would work out cheaper to employ him direct. Reason is, apparently, he can be laid off now without paying redundancy.

The bloke and his colleagues are still with us and have been a fixture for longer than I can remember - it must be over 15 years since the security lads were contracted out. FFS, he'd have "paid for himself" in less than a year. He struggles to make ends meet, we're paying over the odds...and an unseen 3rd party is making money for doing virtually fuck all.

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And probably taking the cash off-shore too

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skybluetony176 said:

Really? Growing waiting lists? People dying on trolleys in corridors? Nurses relying on food banks? Sounds like a NHS in decline if you ask me while investment rises, not much granted but spending has increased.

It's also not that much more. Here's some figures available online.

Current health expenditure in the UK was 9.78 per cent of GDP in 2015. This compares to 16.91 per cent in the USA, 11.08 per cent in Germany, 11.01 per cent in France, 10.76 per cent in the Netherlands, 10.59 per cent in Denmark, 10.16 per cent in Canada, 9.05 per cent in Italy and 9.00 per cent in Spain.
Current expenditure per capita (using the purchasing power parity) for the UK was $4,015 in 2015. This can be compared to $9,451 in the USA, $5,343 in the Netherlands, $5,267 in Germany, $4,943 in Denmark, $4,614 in Canada, $4,415 in France, $3,272 in Italy and $3,153 in Spain.

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As you may well know I have spent three months of 2017 in hospital and I can't complain. My care was exemplary as were the nurses, doctors and consultants who looked after me.


Problem is people only tend to comment on the bad news stuff.

I'll vote Corbyn then he said he'll sort everything out for everyone. People seem to forget that we plough more and more cash into the NHS every year but

CCFCSteve said:

I haven't posted for a long time but this pathetic post des

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Apologies, I had decided not to go on a rant but it still posted the start of the message so I may as well finish. The fact is the NHS needs major reform not just cash yet this is rejected every step of the way by unions, doctors etc. You just have to look at the mess of the junior doctors strikes to see what governments are up against. It's like the social care argument. The fact is the country can't afford what's needed due to us having an aging, longer living population (sad but a fact). A better alternative (for everyone) to what is currently in place is put forward in the Tories manefesto yet 'the public' is up in arms ?!!

I've voted for both main parties in my lifetime and I honestly believe if you haven't or say never would, then there's no point even trying to debate. I'm not overly convinced by May but Corbyn is a joke. People have bought into a cultivated image of him but anyone who is genuinely intersted in politics only has to do some minor research to find out what the mans about.

If people still want to vote for him then that's their call but in my view he should be nowhere near being leader of the opposition let alone leading the country.

CCFCSteve said:

I'll vote Corbyn then he said he'll sort everything out for everyone. People seem to forget that we plough more and more cash into the NHS every year but


Apologies, I had decided not to go on a rant but it still posted the start of the message so I may as well finish. The fact is the NHS needs major reform not just cash yet this is rejected every step of the way by unions, doctors etc. You just have to look at the mess of the junior doctors strikes to see what governments are up against. It's like the social care argument. The fact is the country can't afford what's needed due to us having an aging, longer living population (sad but a fact). A better alternative (for everyone) to what is currently in place is put forward in the Tories manefesto yet 'the public' is up in arms ?!!

I've voted for both main parties in my lifetime and I honestly believe if you haven't or say never would, then there's no point even trying to debate. I'm not overly convinced by May but Corbyn is a joke. People have bought into a cultivated image of him but anyone who is genuinely intersted in politics only has to do some minor research to find out what the mans about.

If people still want to vote for him then that's their call but in my view he should be nowhere near being leader of the opposition let alone leading the country.

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this country is awash with money it just doesn't find it's way to here it's most needed.
Our overall spend on social services is low compared to many developed countries.

We are turning into a nasty, insular, selfish society who see looking after our most vulnerable as some sort of communist folly.

clint van damme said:

this country is awash with money it just doesn't find it's way to here it's most needed.
Our overall spend on social services is low compared to many developed countries.

We are turning into a nasty, insular, selfish society who see looking after our most vulnerable as some sort of communist folly.

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So you don't agree with the Tories social care policy that people who can afford it, pay everything other than £100k (which basically goes towards covering the cost of those that can't afford to pay anything i.e. Don't own a home etc) ?

That's the problem, people will argue blindly against whatever is suggested if it doesn't fit in with their ideology rather than trying to find workable solutions.

CCFCSteve said:

So you don't agree with the Tories social care policy that people who can afford it, pay everything other than £100k (which basically goes towards covering the cost of those that can't afford to pay anything i.e. Don't own a home etc) ?

That's the problem, people will argue blindly against whatever is suggested if it doesn't fit in with their ideology rather than trying to find workable solutions.

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is that what their policy actually is? Who knows, they've changed their mind that often.
If you look at the front page of the Conservative manifesto they have failed to deliver at lest 75% of their pledges in their last 7 years in office, why should people trust them to start delivering now?

clint van damme said:

is that what their policy actually is? Who knows, they've changed their mind that often.
If you look at the front page of the Conservative manifesto they have failed to deliver at lest 75% of their pledges in their last 7 years in office, why should people trust them to start delivering now?

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What's labours social care policy ? Free social care for all ? Just add it to the tab. As I said earlier, there's no point in having a debate. Even when people probably agree with certain polices they don't want to accept them because they are from the wrong party.

You talk about us being an insular, selfish country, I think on the whole we are anything but. My next door neighbour in her eighties had to go into a home recently, her son had to sell her house to pay for it. Yet I'm sure that's going towards not just her care but people who havent been able contribute through no fault of their own (and those that, through choice, haven't worked or saved all their lives to pass something onto their children - how would you deal with that ?)

CCFCSteve said:

What's labours social care policy ? Free social care for all ? Just add it to the tab. As I said earlier, there's no point in having a debate. Even when people probably agree with certain polices they don't want to accept them because they are from the wrong party.

You talk about us being an insular, selfish country, I think on the whole we are anything but. My next door neighbour in her eighties had to go into a home recently, her son had to sell her house to pay for it. Yet I'm sure that's going towards not just her care but people who havent been able contribute through no fault of their own (and those that, through choice, haven't worked or saved all their lives to pass something onto their children - how would you deal with that ?)

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I have had to deal with it recently with my in laws, I know exactly how it works at the moment.

An I do believe there should be free social care for all. I see money been wasted every day on things it shouldn't be spent on so I don't believe it's not affordable.
And I never said we are an insular or selfish country but that we are becoming one, and that saddens me but I see the evidence of it happening every day

clint van damme said:

I have had to deal with it recently with my in laws, I know exactly how it works at the moment.

An I do believe there should be free social care for all. I see money been wasted every day on things it shouldn't be spent on so I don't believe it's not affordable.
And I never said we are an insular or selfish country but that we are becoming one, and that saddens me but I see the evidence of it happening every day

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I agree, we waste ridiculous amounts of money but, as I said earlier, nobody ever accepts reform and savings, it's seen as 'cuts' ! I would also love to see free social care for all (selfishly it would probably save my family a fortune) but it's not feasible/deliverable so I accept that I will ultimtely pay not just for me but for others less fortunate.

torchomatic said:

As you may well know I have spent three months of 2017 in hospital and I can't complain. My care was exemplary as were the nurses, doctors and consultants who looked after me.


Problem is people only tend to comment on the bad news stuff.

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Which is great. But it doesn't mean all the issues I've listed haven't happened and don't continue to happen because they did happen and continue to happen. I spent 8 hours stood next to my elderly grandmother while she was lying on a trolley in a corridor a couple of years ago in walsgrave after she was rushed there as an emergency. The care she received from all the healthcare professionals was as you say exemplary. However it doesn't change the fact that she spent 8 hours in a corridor on a trolley. Hopefully you haven't had to experience this. It isn't pleasant regardless of how exemplary the healthcare professionals are. It added a great deal of stress to an already stressful situation. Not just for the patient but also for the exemplary health care professionals.

So 3 campaigning days to go - what's the outcome?

I'm going to stick my neck out and say 60+ majority for the Tories.

Grendel said:

So 3 campaigning days to go - what's the outcome?

I'm going to stick my neck out and say 60+ majority for the Tories.

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I thought these attacks would help May but from reading Twitter it doesn't seem like that. If Twitter is anything to go by labour are in with a shout but I hope not

Liquid Gold said:

Normally you'd expect the right to get more support after this but May can't really defend anything when she's been cutting police all over the place.

New usurpation poll has it at 1 point lead.

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Polls are pointless. They offer knee jerk reactions and the assumptions behind them often fail

Without the idiotic "youth" vote - who show the failing of the education system through their unqualified ignorance on such matters -Mr Corbyn would already be rehearsing his Quick step and Jive.

ccfchoi87 said:

I thought these attacks would help May but from reading Twitter it doesn't seem like that. If Twitter is anything to go by labour are in with a shout but I hope not

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Problem is she comes out and says things have to change when she's been home secretary for 6 years prior to becoming Prime Minister. So what she's saying is she has failed at her job.

Wiki said:

The Home Secretary is responsible for the internal affairs of England and Wales, and for immigration and citizenship for the United Kingdom. The remit of the Home Office also includes policing in England and Wales and matters of national security, as the Security Service, MI5, is directly accountable to the Home Secretary.

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And then you have members of the police force directly placing the blame at Mays door due to police cuts. In the case of GMP there's video of May personally being told the cuts she was making would leave the city more vulnerable to terrorist attacks.

"Intelligence has dried up. There aren't local officers, they don't know what's happening. They're all reactive, there's no proactive policing locally. That is the reality ma'am.
Neighbourhood policing is critical to dealing with terrorism. We run the risk here of letting communities down, putting officers at risk and ultimately risking national security and I would ask you to seriously consider the budget and the level of cuts over the next five years.”

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And former Met Chief Inspector Peter Kirkham saying things like

"The only thing police have got, once they get to the point of kids carrying knives, is stop and search, and the government's been beating the police up constantly over the last few years saying 'don't do stop and search'.
Stop and search has plummeted, knife crime has gone up, we all knew it was going to happen, we've been warned about it, the government, and Theresa May personally, has not listened. In fact, quite the contrary, she's told us we're crying wolf and we're scaremongering.
We haven't got enough cops to actually put people on the street, that's the main problem really, the streets have been lost. And I would put it as strongly as that.
The streets of London have been lost because there are not police officers patrolling. Why? Because police officers have been cut, not many numbers in relation to London, but those that have have been lost off the front line."

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Grendel said:

Without the idiotic "youth" vote - who show the failing of the education system through their unqualified ignorance on such matters -Mr Corbyn would already be rehearsing his Quick step and Jive.

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What you have them do? Work out the profit margin on a weapons deal with Yemen or Saudi Arabia?

Grendel said:

Polls are pointless. They offer knee jerk reactions and the assumptions behind them often fail

Without the idiotic "youth" vote - who show the failing of the education system through their unqualified ignorance on such matters -Mr Corbyn would already be rehearsing his Quick step and Jive.

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What a stupid and condescending comment.

It will be close I think. Certainly closer than people would have believed when the election was called.

One interesting aspect could be what happens with the labour party if they don't get in. If Corbyn performs better than Miliband last time round they may have trouble trying to force a leadership change and I can't see Corbyn volunteering to go.

I expect the Tories will get back in but with a reduced majority. I think things will also get very difficult for May and she won't survive Brexit. Once the effects of it become even more profound, more and more will turn on her.

Grendel said:

Polls are pointless. They offer knee jerk reactions and the assumptions behind them often fail

Without the idiotic "youth" vote - who show the failing of the education system through their unqualified ignorance on such matters -Mr Corbyn would already be rehearsing his Quick step and Jive.

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What a moronic thing to say.

I'm gonna stick my neck out and call it a hung parliament.

Ian1779 said:

I'm gonna stick my neck out and call it a hung parliament.

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Starting to suspect your neck won't be out that far.

skybluetony176 said:

Starting to suspect your neck won't be out that far.

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That said if Labour hadn't fucked up Scotland....

50-70 majority for the Conservative and Unionst party I hope.

Ian1779 said:

That said if Labour hadn't fucked up Scotland....

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True. But as I said earlier in this thread I wouldn't be surprised if the SNP took a hit. I suspect it will be the Scottish Tories and Lib Dems who will get the most benefit from that if it happens but you never know. Labour could have a major come back in Scotland.

May has successfully managed to push those who previously had reservations about Corbyn into voting for him. She is utterly useless.

skybluetony176 said:

True. But as I said earlier in this thread I wouldn't be surprised if the SNP took a hit. I suspect it will be the Scottish Tories and Lib Dems who will get the most benefit from that if it happens but you never know. Labour could have a major come back in Scotland.

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It would also be interesting to see if there will be any wide-scale tactical voting... as in getting the Tories out of seats by whatever means necessary.

Sick Boy said:

What a stupid and condescending comment.

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No it's not. The left are desperate to reduce the voting age to 16 as they can brainwash the youth. They believe in togetherness and slogans and totally lack individual thought and are frightened of deviation from the "in movement"

I remember when I was a student in the 80's. I cannot remember the details but I ended up at representing my faculty in a student union political meeting. I sat through this stupid meeting at which various "protests" were discussed. At the time their was some curious obsession with Barclays Bank and apartheid. I could have pointed out the naivety of whatever they were arguing if they thought that banking and commerce in general didn't support the gold industry. I could have asked if they checked gold sources before wearing it. I couldn't me bothered and decided to frequently visit the bar

Next was some obscure images of people assassinated in a South American country - id guess Chile. Of course Cuba was far far worse but hey they were cool so I kept stum.

Now this was in Nottingham so we ended up with the real issue - the miners strike. Funds for miners, the struggle, protests and marches.

Anyway in the end someone asked me why I was there and did I have any ideas. So I said yes I've and idea let's organise a collection for the police who are facing a Marxist anarchic mob and that this is a class war which if the government loses all you and your children will suffer the consequences.

I think it dropped a few jaws - I was apparantly a Nazi and told to leave.

Ultimately the youth talky to causes and act like lemmings.

They wear silky T shirts with that man with the frank spencer hat. A man who along with his successor killed more than the man from chile and a man who wanted to intern gays and called blacks inferior. But he's cool he's left wing so I've got the T Shirt.

We saw on the question time programme some giggling idiot who said "I don't want to kill millions of people" with no understanding of the debate.

We have the left wing youth crying over Brexit who are so stupid they don't even know about Corbyn, the SWP and the Communist parties' utter abhorrence to the EU. They've never heard of the foot Benn era who in their manifesto demanded to leave.

They are easy pickings for Corbyn. Like the man with the funny hat they think he's cool, they think he's on their side. They are so dumb they don't realise he stands for everything their idealism would repell if they showed individual thought.