Fraud ? (1 Viewer)

rupert_bear · Jul 10, 2013

MP Bob Ainsworth has mentioned fraud as a possibility in the way sisu/otium/holdings have run their ccfc business over the last few years and that the directors Tim Fisher and Mark Labovitch have been warned and could face possible criminal proceedings if don't file accounts for ccfc Holdings. Also the House of Commons motion has called on ccfc directors to say how the assets of ccfc ltd were switched to ccfc Holdings ltd.

Perhaps I am clutching at straws but I wouldn't think Ainsworth would just come out with this without at the very least getting legal advice and even better know something is in the wind, Wouldn't it be nice if Fisher and Labovitch get nicked on the 21st of July, the day before the creditors meeting

Sky Blues · Jul 10, 2013

I said this yesterday and I'll remind anyone thinking of commenting on this thread today: Bob Ainsworth MP is afforded a degree of legal protection in a Parliamentary motion to say what he has that you may discover does not extend to you if you were to repeat it.

Nick · Jul 10, 2013

What would have been fraudulent?

Otis · Jul 10, 2013

Tim Fisher's hair for starters.

rupert_bear · Jul 10, 2013

Take your point skyblues what I have posted is in todays Coventry Telegraph, but yes as you say we have to be careful

BrisbaneBronco · Jul 10, 2013

Moff said:
Im interested in the point made in the Telgraph that,

The club continued to operate as Holdings, which held the players’ contracts, but the motion says that 108 players, football staff and employees were registered with CCFC Ltd when its accounts for the year ending May 31, 2011 were filed.
The motion also calls for clarification from the company’s auditors BDO on whether the accounts were signed off as correct, claiming that administrator Paul Appleton was unable to get an answer from the firm.

If this is the case, and I am quoting from the Telgraph here, then how can Appleton resolve the administartion when it is alleged he could not get correct clarification from the auditors BDO?

The Plot thickens!!!

cloughie · Jul 10, 2013

Quoting the telegraph

The club continued to operate as Holdings, which held the players’ contracts, but the motion says that 108 players, football staff and employees were registered with CCFC Ltd when its accounts for the year ending May 31, 2011 were filed.
The motion also calls for clarification from the company’s auditors BDO on whether the accounts were signed off as correct, claiming that administrator Paul Appleton was unable to get an answer from the firm.

Yet it also says that BDO claim they have co operated fully with the administrator, so it would appear that someone is economical with the truth.

The moving of assets will also be questionable

Let's hope the perpetrators of any fraudulent dealings are severely dealt with.

Sky Blues · Jul 10, 2013

Thanks for flagging the article RP. An interesting read. I certainly don't want to stiffle debate, I'm just urging everyone to be very careful how they discuss this issue if they do not want to run legal risks. I wouldn't be surprised if the Telegraph's lawyers reviewed the article before it was published.

SydneySkyBlue · Jul 10, 2013

It is interesting that details of the transfer of these assets have never been released.

We've seen on many occasions that these people will show off anything that makes them look good. Why, then, have they kept so quiet on this?

Voice_of_Reason · Jul 10, 2013

I have emailed a copy of the article in the Telegraph to members of the Football League Board and also to Nikki Sinclaire asking for their comments.

rupert_bear · Jul 10, 2013

Voice_of_Reason said:
I have emailed a copy of the article in the Telegraph to members of the Football League Board and also to Nikki Sinclaire asking for their comments.

Good thinking, I don't want to raise hope or expectation but I was told ages ago, that it's not a smoking gun more an exploding cannon at City, fingers crossed

Bennets Afro · Jul 10, 2013

The FL must of let the transfers happen. That's why Sisu have had them in their pocket. The FL messed up and we the fans are all paying for it

rupert_bear · Jul 10, 2013

Bennets Afro said:
The FL must of let the transfers happen. That's why Sisu have had them in their pocket. The FL messed up and we the fans are all paying for it

Could that make the FL open to a legal challenge. Would love an individual supporter to mount a legal challenge and sue the FL. The snowball affect from winning a case like that could cost the league thousands

The Prefect · Jul 10, 2013

Nick said:
What would have been fraudulent?

Between accounts being signed off in June 2012 and when the company went into administration CCFC Ltd's asset base was reduced to the extent that the administrator's report said there was no assets that were pledged i.e. owned by the company.

It is a legal duty of a director to report 'post balance sheet' events (events after the company's year ending) if they are significant enough to materially affect the way you would read the accounts. In CCFC Ltd's case nothing was said about the company 'ceasing to trade' in the year ending 31 May 2012- which should have been reported by the directors when they signed the accounts.

Bearing in mind that the company's accounts were not signed off by auditors until SISU gave guarantees there is an argument that the Company has been insolvent for some significant time - although I accept that it wouldn't be insolvent with SISU guarantees.

An administrator looks carefully at the transfer of assets out of a company ahead of administration to ensure that those assets were transferred at a proper price. Transferring assets out of a company prior to administration could be regarded as detrimental to creditors. In CCFC Ltd's case the directors will have to explain how a company with a turnover of more than £10m up to 31 May 2011 ends up with no sales and (almost) no assets in less than a year. The silence from the company's auditors is understandable as their competence would be under investigation also.

Ainsworth is protected by parliamentary rules so can say these things openly. From the last filed accounts and the administrator's report there seems to be a case to answer regarding how CCFC Ltd lost its turnover and assets so quickly.

Step up all directors and shadow directors of CCFC Ltd and provide answers.

rupert_bear · Jul 10, 2013

If there was a case to answer, when could that be proceeded with and exactly who would have to answer any charges. Could arrests be imminent, I would think an arrest alone even if it wasn't proceeded with could put the FL in a bit of a pickle when judging "fit and proper"

RegTheDonk · Jul 10, 2013

rupert_bear said:
Could that make the FL open to a legal challenge. Would love an individual supporter to mount a legal challenge and sue the FL. The snowball affect from winning a case like that could cost the league thousands

Bit like the Bosman ruling I suppose? Would need a fairly wealthy fan to take on the FL, but would love to see those ivory tower idiots sh*t themselves.

duffer · Jul 10, 2013

The way that CCFC Ltd suddenly seems to have no (or few) tanglible assets whilst having massive debts is very interesting to me.

I wouldn't for a moment suggest that anything untoward has occurred, but just out of interest here's a definition of fraudulent practice from the Serious Fraud Office:

What is asset stripping?

Asset stripping is taking company funds or assets of value while leaving behind the debts.

Company directors transfer only the assets of one company to another and not the liabilities. The result is a dormant company with large liabilities that cannot be met and it has to be put into liquidation

http://www.sfo.gov.uk/fraud/what-is-fraud/corporate-fraud/asset-stripping.aspx

I wouldn't think our owners could ever be involved in such a thing. I'm sure the accounts are simply a 'mess', as TF states.

Perhaps for everyone's peace of mind it's time that someone looked into it properly though, just to stop any scurrilous accusations that might otherwise start floating around on the internet.

I note that there's a link to a reporting form on that page.

rupert_bear · Jul 10, 2013

RegTheDonk said:
Bit like the Bosman ruling I suppose? Would need a fairly wealthy fan to take on the FL, but would love to see those ivory tower idiots sh*t themselves.

Well there are a few well heeled fans who as a goup could financially back a "man of straw" test case, often happens. When I win the Euro Friday that "man of straw" will be me.

procdoc · Jul 10, 2013

So if I were to say Tim Fisher is a crook could I technically be done for that?

true sky blue · Jul 10, 2013

i think Mr Ainsworth may have just signed his own political career to wastebin. libel, slander, harassment are just some things that come to mind. if what he said was anywhere near the truth the owners of city are out ! and that will be that. Fraud at the club? with the involvment of the football league? my god hes lost the plot

chiefdave · Jul 10, 2013

true sky blue said:
i think Mr Ainsworth may have just signed his own political career to wastebin. libel, slander, harassment are just some things that come to mind. if what he said was anywhere near the truth the owners of city are out ! and that will be that. Fraud at the club? with the involvment of the football league? my god hes lost the plot

why do you assume everything he says is untrue. do you have access to information that shows what he says isn't true? to me what he has said makes more sense than anything Fisher has come out with.

true sky blue · Jul 10, 2013

duffer said:
The way that CCFC Ltd suddenly seems to have no (or few) tanglible assets whilst having massive debts is very interesting to me.

I wouldn't for a moment suggest that anything untoward has occurred, but just out of interest here's a definition of fraudulent practice from the Serious Fraud Office:

http://www.sfo.gov.uk/fraud/what-is-fraud/corporate-fraud/asset-stripping.aspx

I wouldn't think our owners could ever be involved in such a thing. I'm sure the accounts are simply a 'mess', as TF states.

Perhaps for everyone's peace of mind it's time that someone looked into it properly though, just to stop any scurrilous accusations that might otherwise start floating around on the internet.

I note that there's a link to a reporting form on that page.

but sisu are a hedge fund. they dont own the club in essence they fund it. therefore it is normal for a hedge fund to open up many limited companies and distribute... its not a loophole its not illegall.. its big bad bob grasping at straws.... whilst boosting his public profile

bigfatronssba · Jul 10, 2013

<p>

procdoc said:
So if I were to say Tim Fisher is a crook could I technically be done for that?

Yes. Put the word allegedly in front of it and its ok then.

true sky blue · Jul 10, 2013

Mr Fisher is a man of integrity, a good person fighting all corners, he has a job to do and is not mr popular. but neither are coppers, dentists, solicitors and administrators but they have a job to do. why is it Mr Fisher gets the crap all the time, how about starting on the players who have let us down over the years? the fans who do not turn up? the owners in london - go to there offices protest properly not in 10s and 20s but in your thousands. this poor fella walks out to a lynch mob every time and tries to speak... he then gets lambasted for repeating himself or being coy... that business all businessmen act like that. he isnt a monster guys - give the guy a break after all he is a human being like the rest of us

rupert_bear · Jul 10, 2013

true sky blue said:
i think Mr Ainsworth may have just signed his own political career to wastebin. libel, slander, harassment are just some things that come to mind. if what he said was anywhere near the truth the owners of city are out ! and that will be that. Fraud at the club? with the involvment of the football league? my god hes lost the plot

You sound as if you will be disappointed if untrue.

As for Bob's political career he's standing down at the next election.
I have no idea where this will go but I am certain a lot of ground has been covered probably many times over so Bob was obviously not shooting from the hip. Our issue to my knowledge has been brought up in Parliament 4 times, doesn't mean sisu have a case to answer but it would have been before all sorts of legal eagles

Sisued · Jul 10, 2013

true sky blue said:
Mr Fisher is a man of integrity, a good person fighting all corners, he has a job to do and is not mr popular. but neither are coppers, dentists, solicitors and administrators but they have a job to do. why is it Mr Fisher gets the crap all the time, how about starting on the players who have let us down over the years? the fans who do not turn up? the owners in london - go to there offices protest properly not in 10s and 20s but in your thousands. this poor fella walks out to a lynch mob every time and tries to speak... he then gets lambasted for repeating himself or being coy... that business all businessmen act like that. he isnt a monster guys - give the guy a break after all he is a human being like the rest of us

. Nice one you're a funny guy :facepalm:

WiganSkyBlue · Jul 10, 2013

:facepalm: Dear oh dear - it's called parliamentary privilege and he won't get done. As I suspected all along, things are happening behind the scenes and this is by no means over yet. And yes, nothing in this saga would surprise me any more.

true sky blue said:
i think Mr Ainsworth may have just signed his own political career to wastebin. libel, slander, harassment are just some things that come to mind. if what he said was anywhere near the truth the owners of city are out ! and that will be that. Fraud at the club? with the involvment of the football league? my god hes lost the plot

wingy · Jul 10, 2013

Having read the whole article It Is'nt just the Laudible efforts of of the Honourable Bob Is It ?

Companies house now chasing Fisher and Labovitch ,also pressure on PA and BDO.God help Hearts as the are the Administrator there !!

WiganSkyBlue · Jul 10, 2013

true sky blue said:
Mr Fisher is a man of integrity, a good person fighting all corners, he has a job to do and is not mr popular. but neither are coppers, dentists, solicitors and administrators but they have a job to do. why is it Mr Fisher gets the crap all the time, how about starting on the players who have let us down over the years? the fans who do not turn up? the owners in london - go to there offices protest properly not in 10s and 20s but in your thousands. this poor fella walks out to a lynch mob every time and tries to speak... he then gets lambasted for repeating himself or being coy... that business all businessmen act like that. he isnt a monster guys - give the guy a break after all he is a human being like the rest of us

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Jul 10, 2013

procdoc said:
So if I were to say Tim Fisher is a crook could I technically be done for that?

You must concentrate on your spelling I presume you meant cook and yes he is one of those does a mean barberque the dog loves the scraps. Hope that helps

bigfatronssba · Jul 10, 2013

<p>

true sky blue said:
Mr Fisher is a man of integrity, a good person fighting all corners, he has a job to do and is not mr popular. but neither are coppers, dentists, solicitors and administrators but they have a job to do. why is it Mr Fisher gets the crap all the time, how about starting on the players who have let us down over the years? the fans who do not turn up? the owners in london - go to there offices protest properly not in 10s and 20s but in your thousands. this poor fella walks out to a lynch mob every time and tries to speak... he then gets lambasted for repeating himself or being coy... that business all businessmen act like that. he isnt a monster guys - give the guy a break after all he is a human being like the rest of us

Tim Fisher is a liar. End of.

Sisued · Jul 10, 2013

Did he tell you that?

Noggin · Jul 10, 2013

true sky blue said:
but sisu are a hedge fund. they dont own the club in essence they fund it. therefore it is normal for a hedge fund to open up many limited companies and distribute... its not a loophole its not illegall.. its big bad bob grasping at straws.... whilst boosting his public profile

It absolutely is illegal to move assets out of a company and then put it in administration and the link to that offence at the serious fraud office is already been posted in the thread. Have SISU done this? I don't know, but it seems very strange that a company with massive debts and a large turnover suddenly becomes a non trading subsidy with almost no assets.

bigfatronssba said:
<p>

Yes. Put the word allegedly in front of it and its ok then.

Using the word allegedly is very unlikely to be enough to save you if you are libeling someone.

true sky blue said:
Mr Fisher is a man of integrity, a good person fighting all corners, he has a job to do and is not mr popular. but neither are coppers, dentists, solicitors and administrators but they have a job to do. why is it Mr Fisher gets the crap all the time, how about starting on the players who have let us down over the years? the fans who do not turn up? the owners in london - go to there offices protest properly not in 10s and 20s but in your thousands. this poor fella walks out to a lynch mob every time and tries to speak... he then gets lambasted for repeating himself or being coy... that business all businessmen act like that. he isnt a monster guys - give the guy a break after all he is a human being like the rest of us

You've got to be on the wind up, most ridiculous thing I've read all day. Fisher is a man of integrity, hilarious, you should do stand up. Fisher deliberately misleads and outright lies over and over again.

duffer · Jul 10, 2013

true sky blue said:
but sisu are a hedge fund. they dont own the club in essence they fund it. therefore it is normal for a hedge fund to open up many limited companies and distribute... its not a loophole its not illegall.. its big bad bob grasping at straws.... whilst boosting his public profile

It's nothing to do with Bob, though I can see you've got issues with him. And it's nothing to do with SISU being a hedge fund either, they can have as many companies as they want, but each one has to be run according to the law.

What you can't do, legally, is asset strip, the definition of which is above. I don't know whether they may have done this or not, if you've got any evidence either way I'd be interested. In the meantime maybe it would merit proper investigation by someone who isn't biased either way.

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Jul 10, 2013

true sky blue said:
i think Mr Ainsworth may have just signed his own political career to wastebin. libel, slander, harassment are just some things that come to mind. if what he said was anywhere near the truth the owners of city are out ! and that will be that. Fraud at the club? with the involvment of the football league? my god hes lost the plot

Why has he, he is protected by Parliament? Unless youre saying that Sisu can take on Parliament oh I do hope so

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