France terrorist attack beheading (1 Viewer)

Accepted, but what is the right way? Do we allow the establishment of the Caliphate and see if their ambitions stop there?

Macca said:

Accepted, but what is the right way? Do we allow the establishment of the Caliphate and see if their ambitions stop there?

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ISIL & cronies are just a bunch of crazed religious zealots who want to see the world burn, what that stand for needs to be destroyed and it will be, their only future is destruction.

Up to 1924 there was a Caliphate in Istanbul, Kemal Atatürk abolished it when he modernised Turkey because it was a backwards institution that held the country back. Previously there were various caliphates stretching back to the founding of Islam, sometimes a bit splintered, but from 1517 to 1924 there was only the Ottoman Caliphate.

This is the last Ottoman Caliph, as you can see not an Arab Sheik.


PS There were various rival Caliphates in the later stages of the Ottoman Caliphate, but they died out around the same time.

PPS The sunn'i / sihite split was caused when Muhammed didn't leave clear instructions for his succession, seems like the big man forgot to warn him he was going to die & their were rival claimants.

There have been many historical mistakes made in the M.E.. Many by our country and allies. Bombing Arabs to shit probably won't solve the problems long term, but ISIS have gone over the top and are just barbaric. In this case bombing their supplies and infrastructure might put them under more pressure. They are trying to show that they can run an Islamic state. Unfortunately the Q'ran was written for 7th century goat herds and farmers. There is nothing in it about public transport, sanitation systems etc.. With their infrastructure weakened they may lose the grip on the large populations they control. Hopefully they will implode and withdraw in time. At some time the seething mass of local disputes and religious conflicts have got to be addressed. Assad and ISIS must go and the Saudis, Qatar etc. Must be forced to the negotiating table along with Iran and Turkey. Every " normal " person in that region must see that this cannot go on. I would guess that most people want to live a healthy life and bring up their children whatever their religion or nationality.

Macca said:

Accepted, but what is the right way? Do we allow the establishment of the Caliphate and see if their ambitions stop there?

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Of course not.
Put pressure on Saudi Arabia, Iran and other countries supporting them to stop delivering them with Guns + Ammo.
Research and dry out their money flows. Stop delivering guns to crisis areas in the middle east, help establish stable and fair governments in countries like Syria + Iraq. Crack down on know "hate preachers", especially in Europe. E.g.
I'm not an expert and it might not all be achievable. But it has to be given a try.
I'd first try to do heavy research how they can turn young people grown up here into assassins and suicide bombers and offer alternatives.
Drone bomb / bomb the IS alone, and there will be even more coming back.

Monners said:

The five permanent members of the UN Security Council: UK, France, US, Russia and China

The five biggest arms dealers in the world: UK, France, US, Russia and China

The biggest "customer" in the Middle East of arms dealing: Saudi Arabia

The main sponsors of Isis and AL Qeada: Saudi Arabia

The response to recent attacks: Bomb the hell out of the terrorists

The result: More innocents killed and more refugees - and more excuse for terrorists

The attitude of many: the refugees aren't our problem and they will have terrorists amongst them, so keep them out!

The historical context: Imperialism - UK, France, Saudi Arabia et al

Does that excuse Isis et al: No, but it creates a power vaccume

Who are the beneficiaries: The Saudis seem ok, and the arms sales don't seem to have been hindered it seems

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I noticed in PMQ's yesterday that Corbyn asked Cameron to invoke sanction on banks and states that deal with ISIS...no reply.

And you can't see a word of it in the papers today.

Their funding needs to be removed at source, then go after any other means that they try and make money with (selling oil as an example)

When you look at who was involved in the Paris attacks its hard to see how closing the borders as some people have suggested would have helped.

Bilal Hadfi, 20 - French (living in Belgium)
Ismaël Omar Mostefaï, 29 - French
Samy Amimour, 28 - French
Ibrahim Abdeslam, 31 - French (living in Belgium)
Salah Abdeslam, 26 - French (living in Belgium)
Hamza Attou, 21 - Belgian
Mohamed Amri, 27 - Belgian (born in Morocco)

Eighth suspect (unidentified) carrying stolen passport in name of 'Ahmad al-Mohammad', 25 - from Idlib, Syria

The alleged mastermind is Abdelhamid Abaaoud, 27, from Belgium.

All of them are EU passport holders, and while some were born in Morocco, others were born and raised in France and Belgium before being radicalised.

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chiefdave said:

When you look at who was involved in the Paris attacks its hard to see how closing the borders as some people have suggested would have helped.

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Didn't some if not all of them go to training camps in Syria?

Ian1779 said:

I noticed in PMQ's yesterday that Corbyn asked Cameron to invoke sanction on banks and states that deal with ISIS...no reply.

And you can't see a word of it in the papers today.

Their funding needs to be removed at source, then go after any other means that they try and make money with (selling oil as an example)

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Good post, it amazes me that simple questions like "Who is funding ISIS?" aren't asked in the media

Ian1779 said:

I noticed in PMQ's yesterday that Corbyn asked Cameron to invoke sanction on banks and states that deal with ISIS...no reply.

And you can't see a word of it in the papers today.

Their funding needs to be removed at source, then go after any other means that they try and make money with (selling oil as an example)

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Exactly.

Cameron is cosy with the financiers and the states involved, and would not dare do such a thing - it's not his decision anyway.

People who lend credence to the media have only themselves to blame for their ignorance. There are many who are trying desperately to open their eyes.

Jack Griffin said:

Didn't some if not all of them go to training camps in Syria?

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I don't quite understand why we are now (or previously) not saying to these people that if they choose to go to Syria/Saudi Arabia etc etc that they will have their passports removed and will never be allowed to enter their home country again.

Currently 170 hostages & a load of shootings at the Raddison Hotel in Mali.....


Looking forward to seeing the Premier League teams signing the Mali national anthem straight after le marseillaise......

....oh hang on....

I would imagine it's down to the prevalence of French players rather than anything else. All a bit daft anyway, enforced participation. We are even told how we should show compassion now

jimmyhillsfanclub said:

Currently 170 hostages & a load of shootings at the Raddison Hotel in Mali.....


Looking forward to seeing the Premier League teams signing the Mali national anthem straight after le marseillaise......

....oh hang on....

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Remaining hostages freed, up to 27 were killed. Still some gunmen trapped on upper floors, unclear how many.

Jack Griffin said:

Remaining hostages freed, up to 27 were killed. Still some gunmen trapped on upper floors, unclear how many.

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A Belgian diplomat/politician is amongst the dead, apparently.

Jack Griffin said:

Hollande is closing the borders. Shengen is dead.

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Sweden & Denmark lock down.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34571236
to add to Hungry, Croatia & Slovenia
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35222015