Forth coming problem for the Football League (3 Viewers)

jesus-wept · Aug 28, 2013

Just listened to an interview on CWR involving a football finance expert who said in his interview and I apologise as I only just about caught it that under FFP with little or no income sisu/otium will have a problem with staying on-side with the FL. Apparently if I heard correct money cannot be thrown at a subsidery under these rules. The sugar daddy syndrome a number of us yearn for and a number of clubs enjoy. He thought it only a matter of time opponents in division 3 complain to the FL about it.

CovFan · Aug 28, 2013

We'll just threaten to not fulfil fixtures again and we'll get away with it again.

CarpyCov84 · Aug 28, 2013

With effect SISU nothing does were it comes to the FL

jimmyhillsfanclub · Aug 28, 2013

Actually, the FFP don't apply to us....as a 3rd tier club, we are governed by the Salary Cost Management Protocol (SCMP) which is a kind of hotch-potch that has been adopted from UEFAs FFP.....

...Our wage bill should be no more than 60% turnover....however from what I've read there are lots of sub-clauses such as the wages of academy graduate players & young players that have been at the club for 3+ years do not qualify....

...more pertinent still is the fact that "donations" from businesses can be accepted as part of the turnover figure.....but they cannot be conditional so another Otium/Sisu company can donate money but cannot LOAN money.....

so at least, in theory, if sisu want to "fund" the club within the rules, they will have to actually spend the money instead of loading us with more debt.....

italiahorse · Aug 28, 2013

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
so at least, in theory, if sisu want to "fund" the club within the rules, they will have to actually spend the money instead of loading us with more debt.....

Hence the power of NOPM.
SISU must input money but it can't be a loan.
Unfortunately the real effects will be next year for SISU but hopefully they can see this and get out.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Aug 28, 2013

italiahorse said:
Hence the power of NOPM.
SISU must input money but it can't be a loan.
Unfortunately the real effects will be next year for SISU but hopefully they can see this and get out.

Agreed....I stated this very fact on one of the "NOPM not working" threads......

it will work eventually ...but its a long old road.....and the club may die on the way down it...

oldskyblue58 · Aug 28, 2013

responses I have had from FL about the calculations

Income generated by a club that forms part of its football activities such as, commercial revenues, gate revenues, solidarity payments, Football League payments, donations, net transfer income (transfer fees paid) all make up the relevant income within the SCMP guidelines

The relevant income figure for SCMP will be a portion of total turnover, but not necessarily agree to total turnover figure in the accounts
SCMP splits turnover into ‘normal income’ and ‘football fortune’ income. For League 1 clubs both these forms of income go into determining how much money a club can spend in relation to wages. In League 1’s case, this is set at 65% of turnover. (last season) This is calculated on an on-going basis going forward
All player wages are included in the calculation. This covers basic wage, bonuses, appearances and any other add-ons. The calculation also includes PAYE, medical costs, cars and travel and also agent payments. Basically the full cost of a player is included. Players included are all contract players (full contract, non-contract, multiplicity etc.) and loan players. Players loaned out are deducted for the period of the loan. Players not included are youth players on a professional contract (i.e. players that have been in the club’s YD scheme and have been given a pro contract. They must be 20 years of age or under at the start of the season to be discounted from the SCMP calculation

SCMP relates to playing staff only

As it applies to FFP, contributions from Equity Participants/Related Parties that can be used as an allowance for the purposes of the Championship Financial Fair Play (FFP) Calculation are injections of share capital or capital contributions, being unconditional gifts made to the Club by a Related Party which increases the Club’s equity without any obligation for repayment or liability to do anything in consideration for receiving them
Loan amounts from an owner or related party do not constitute Shareholder Equity Investment for the purposes of the FFP calculation

The Relevant Turnover figure used in the SCMP calculation includes cash invested into the club in the form of equity or donation but does not include money injected into the club through loans
The League has put together an FAQ document which can be found via the following link - http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/FLExplainedDetail/0,,10794~2748246,00.html and our regulations here - http://www.football-league.co.uk/regulations/20130704/section-4-clubs_2293633_2125725#18 – stating that each division can introduce its own divisional rules. This document was put together to help answer questions fans may have in relation to FFP and SCMP.
The Divisional rules and guidance notes in relation to FFP are not publicly available and therefore I am unable to comment further in relation to specific detail. All clubs do have access to the rules if you want to contact a specific club for further information

hope that helps

edit

What they wouldnt answer was whether existing loans converted to equity counted in the L1 calculation or not

jimmyhillsfanclub · Aug 28, 2013

Players not included are youth players on a professional contract (i.e. players that have been in the club’s YD scheme and have been given a pro contract. They must be 20 years of age or under at the start of the season to be discounted from the SCMP calculation

Calculation are injections of share capital or capital contributions, being unconditional gifts made to the Club by a Related Party which increases the Club’s equity without any obligation for repayment or liability to do anything in consideration for receiving them

Loan amounts from an owner or related party do not constitute Shareholder Equity Investment for the purposes of the FFP calculation

Wow....I was reasonably accurate with my interpretation from various t'interweb bits & pieces I've read.....I've impressed myself.

I feel sausage on toast from the café is a just reward....

SonOfSnoz · Aug 28, 2013

So, it's fans pay & support or Sisu will be forced to sell likes of Christie/Clarke/Willis/Baker...
Or end of CCFC!

thaiskyblue · Aug 28, 2013

SonOfSnoz said:
So, it's fans pay & support or Sisu will be forced to sell likes of Christie/Clarke/Willis/Baker...
Or end of CCFC!

sisu will sell them any way, if they get offers.

bigfatronssba · Aug 28, 2013

SonOfSnoz said:
So, it's fans pay & support or Sisu will be forced to sell likes of Christie/Clarke/Willis/Baker...
Or end of CCFC!

Or sisu can genuinely put some money into the club.

skybluetony176 · Aug 28, 2013

what you have to remember is that the FL have a get out of jail free card if it means the fixture list cant be filled, all rules can be broken at the FL boards discretion. how many rules have shitsu broke over the last 6months?

if the FL stuck to their rules and had the balls of the judge that threw out the judicial review at the 1st hurdle they could have called shitsu's bluff over the ground share, shitsu would have had to accept acl/ccc conditions to accept the cva and we would be playing at the ricoh right now. all that's happened is shitsu have called the FL's bluff, set a president for clubs to take the piss in the future, invite more cowboy owners into the game to cream their system and highlight that the FL are not fit for purpose.

davebart · Aug 28, 2013

skybluetony176 said:
what you have to remember is that the FL have a get out of jail free card if it means the fixture list cant be filled, all rules can be broken at the FL boards discretion. how many rules have shitsu broke over the last 6months?

if the FL stuck to their rules and had the balls of the judge that threw out the judicial review at the 1st hurdle they could have called shitsu's bluff over the ground share, shitsu would have had to accept acl/ccc conditions to accept the cva and we would be playing at the ricoh right now. all that's happened is shitsu have called the FL's bluff, set a president for clubs to take the piss in the future, invite more cowboy owners into the game to cream their system and highlight that the FL are not fit for purpose.

don't mince your words - say what you really mean

Grendel · Aug 28, 2013

italiahorse said:
Hence the power of NOPM.
SISU must input money but it can't be a loan.
Unfortunately the real effects will be next year for SISU but hopefully they can see this and get out.

So the power is to force the club to sell all its players to meet FPP guidelines? What's your next cunning plan?

DazzleTommyDazzle · Aug 28, 2013

Grendel said:
So the power is to force the club to sell all its players to meet FPP guidelines?

Not at all.

TF has repeatedly stated that SISU have budgeted to fund the shortfall in income due to the move to Northampton.

As explained above, all they have to do is to provide this in the form of additional equity and there will be no problem with meeting the guidelines.

Cheshire Sky Blue · Aug 28, 2013

skybluetony176 said:
what you have to remember is that the FL have a get out of jail free card if it means the fixture list cant be filled, all rules can be broken at the FL boards discretion. how many rules have shitsu broke over the last 6months?

if the FL stuck to their rules and had the balls of the judge that threw out the judicial review at the 1st hurdle they could have called shitsu's bluff over the ground share, shitsu would have had to accept acl/ccc conditions to accept the cva and we would be playing at the ricoh right now. all that's happened is shitsu have called the FL's bluff, set a president for clubs to take the piss in the future, invite more cowboy owners into the game to cream their system and highlight that the FL are not fit for purpose.

Bang on SBtony. I was going to post the same thing then read this.

pugwash · Aug 28, 2013

skybluetony176 said:
what you have to remember is that the FL have a get out of jail free card if it means the fixture list cant be filled, all rules can be broken at the FL boards discretion. how many rules have shitsu broke over the last 6months?

if the FL stuck to their rules and had the balls of the judge that threw out the judicial review at the 1st hurdle they could have called shitsu's bluff over the ground share, shitsu would have had to accept acl/ccc conditions to accept the cva and we would be playing at the ricoh right now. all that's happened is shitsu have called the FL's bluff, set a president for clubs to take the piss in the future, invite more cowboy owners into the game to cream their system and highlight that the FL are not fit for purpose.

I'm not sure it's true in this case, the other clubs will make it a big deal if CCFC are allowed to be an exception to this rule as it would directly affect them (and presumably CCFC results and league position). I'm sure Sisu will push the limits though.

skybluetony176 · Aug 28, 2013

pugwash said:
I'm not sure it's true in this case, the other clubs will make it a big deal if CCFC are allowed to be an exception to this rule as it would directly affect them (and presumably CCFC results and league position). I'm sure Sisu will push the limits though.

if cov stay up by 1 point it wouldn't surprise me if the club below them are complaining as the 10points was at the lower end of the possible point deduction.

fernandopartridge · Aug 28, 2013

Bizarre forum. Coventry City fans wishing the FL rules were more stringent so as their club could be punished further.

skybluetony176 · Aug 28, 2013

fernandopartridge said:
Bizarre forum. Coventry City fans wishing the FL rules were more stringent so as their club could be punished further.

i don't want us to be punished further. i just think that if the FL worked to the latter of their own rules shitsu's bluff would have been called and we would be playing in Coventry, an novel idea i know but it would be nice.

Stafford_SkBlue · Aug 28, 2013

Sisu would have budgeted for more then the first two home games produced, so if star players are sold to make up the shortfall, we cant complain. Its upto the supporters what they want. A reduced income will probably also increase the time away from coventry

georgehudson · Aug 28, 2013

so, therefore,
come back & play in Coventry,
stop the stupidity,

DazzleTommyDazzle · Aug 28, 2013

Stafford_SkBlue said:
Sisu would have budgeted for more then the first two home games produced, so if star players are sold to make up the shortfall, we cant complain. Its upto the supporters what they want. A reduced income will probably also increase the time away from coventry

Well TF has been very clear that SISU have budgeted to make up the lost income and he was given pretty clear feedback at the forums in the summer as to the way that the majority of his customer base would react.

Not sure I follow your conclusion. Seems to be that because being in Northampton is costing SISU more than they thought it would, they'll stay there longer?

TheSnoz · Aug 28, 2013

Stafford, Sisu tell lies.
90% of our current fanbase don't trust them as far as they can spit.
We're making a stand for Coventry City playing in Coventry, simple as that.

lift tower · Aug 28, 2013

Grendel said:
So the power is to force the club to sell all its players to meet FPP guidelines? What's your next cunning plan?

What's yours? I'd love to know.

shmmeee · Aug 28, 2013

Stafford_SkBlue said:
A reduced income will probably also increase the time away from coventry

Can you elaborate?

Cheshire Sky Blue · Aug 28, 2013

fernandopartridge said:
Bizarre forum. Coventry City fans wishing the FL rules were more stringent so as their club could be punished further.

No. Absolutely incorrect assertion. It based upon the FL applying its rules so scum cant shaft real supporters

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