Formation (following on from: Fans Support of Andy Thorn: A sign of just how far...) (1 Viewer)

Knowledge

New Member
Following my post yesterday regarding the general apathetic and apologetic nature of our fans towards our manager, and the whole repetitive mantra of ''he has no tools to work with'', ''no point in changing the manager with no funds'' etc etc, I just wanted to point out to those arguing that his tactics are not to blame, the reason why he is clearly playing the wrong system.

I do not proclaim to be the next Matthew, Clough, Fergie et al, but I do have a huge amount of experience as a semi-professional coach and manager and have many acquaintances high up in the game to take advice from as well as having coached some now professional players. That is a fact and not a boast before people harp on about me claiming to know more than Thorn, I don't but I do have more managerial experience, albeit at a lower level.

To play the passing diamond you need to pass at pace, you need your players to MOVE, you need your players to want the ball, you almost need the diamond to rotate like a wheel and gather round whoever has the ball, to allow the intricate nature of this system to work. However, most importantly, you need TO GRADUALLY MOVE FORWARD, whilst constantly passing round the diamond. WE DON'T do that, so the diamond, although allowing us to keep possession, generally moves in the opposite direction (backwards) with the players staying rooted to their basic positions. This is a clear and very basic floor in football management.

The solution? To play an adaptive 5-3-2 to 3-5-1-1 system, simple. This would suit our players. Allow me to explain.

We continually get overrun in midfield, we continually have gaps at the back and our forwards are continually too far apart. The system would work like this, and this is why it would suit our players:

When in defence the system would look:

Murphy

Christie - Keogh - Cranie/Mcpake/Cameron - Wood - Hussey

Clingan

Thomas Deegan

Juke McDonald

This packs the defence, both down the sides and the middle, with a combination of height, power and finesse whilst leaving Clingan in almost a sweeper role and the ability to outlet the ball to the midfield 3.

When attacking the system would look like:

Murphy

Keogh - Cranie/Mcpake/Cameron - Wood

Clingan

Christie Thomas Deegan Hussey

McDonald

Juke

This allows natural width when attacking, pushes Juke and Mcdonald closer together and allows a total of 4 midfielders to attack with CLingan sitting back. This also forces the opposition to drop a stiker deeper meaning a slower break, as we do seem to be hit by speedy breaks (a'la Millwall/Southampton) and incase of a sudden break up of our play from the opposition and hoof forward, e have both Keogh and Wood who can move across to almost full-back position. In any case when one of the wing-backs is attacking, the other would hang back, so we would still in essence have 4 players in defence.

This system negates the need to play Bell/Baker and would also work better for Platt and McSheffrey if required.

I am not saying this should always be used, but due to the way we play the diamond and the natural tendancy for Hussey and Christie to attack the flanks (leaving us open with the diamond), and teh fact this would also mean that opposition teams could not attack as freely, should be our default system.

Just my 2 cents. ''Grabs popcorn and awaits abuse.''
 

PVA

Well-Known Member
3 at the back is pretty much redundant now with the number of teams that play one up front.
 

ashbyjan

Well-Known Member
Whilst I agree with your overall assessment of our situation I think the telling part is your statement "To play the passing diamond you need to pass at pace, you need your players to MOVE, you need your players to want the ball" - we have a midfield devoid of pace Bell, Clingan, Baker, Deegan, McSheffrey have the speed of geriatric glaciers, none of them have any desire to work and move into space, in fact a couple of them positively avoid doing that in the hope of not not getting the ball ie they don't want the ball.
Overall there is nothing wrong with the formation its simply we do not have the players to make it effective and my criticism of Thorn is that he persists with it even though we don't have the personnel to make it work. He needs to look at what limited resources he has and adopt a system that suits their limited ability and desire, or else simply shove the wasters on the bench ie: McSheff, Bell and Baker and just play the kids in a system that suits them. The diamond needs pace and hard work - our senior player are not delivering so either change the system or change the personnel (bring the kids permanently) but AT needs to do something and bloody quick.
 

kg82

Well-Known Member
Oh, the old "lots of experience at semi-pro level" line. I haven't heard that one in a few months!

Lack of, not many people like to be patronised. Just a helpful bit of advice there.

And this is what is actually wrong - 1) the ball is not moved on quick enough when we have it. 2) The players do not work hard enough when we don't have the ball.
 

Knowledge

New Member
Whilst I agree with your overall assessment of our situation I think the telling part is your statement "To play the passing diamond you need to pass at pace, you need your players to MOVE, you need your players to want the ball" - we have a midfield devoid of pace Bell, Clingan, Baker, Deegan, McSheffrey have the speed of geriatric glaciers, none of them have any desire to work and move into space, in fact a couple of them positively avoid doing that in the hope of not not getting the ball ie they don't want the ball.
.

This is precisely what is wrong with the current system. We cant change the players so change the system to one which doesn't require the central midfielders to work in the same way and where the pace will come from teh sides as opposed to the middle (where there isn't any).
 

Knowledge

New Member
Oh, the old "lots of experience at semi-pro level" line. I haven't heard that one in a few months!

Lack of, not many people like to be patronised. Just a helpful bit of advice there.

And this is what is actually wrong - 1) the ball is not moved on quick enough when we have it. 2) The players do not work hard enough when we don't have the ball.

Did you actually read the post? If I hadn't stated the experience part people would be harping on that I don't have any, so I stated that I do, whilst also stating it doesn't make me a genius etc. Again, where you state what is wrong, did you actually read the post? This just weakens your objection, please focus on the football side.

All for alternative opinions, but yet to see one that doesn't resort to trying to correct me on what I have already stated.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
Oh, the old "lots of experience at semi-pro level" line. I haven't heard that one in a few months!

Lack of, not many people like to be patronised. Just a helpful bit of advice there.

And this is what is actually wrong - 1) the ball is not moved on quick enough when we have it. 2) The players do not work hard enough when we don't have the ball.

This is very true. When we don't have the ball we don't close down the opposition and when in possession we are very slow and predictable.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
Following my post yesterday regarding the general apathetic and apologetic nature of our fans towards our manager, and the whole repetitive mantra of ''he has no tools to work with'', ''no point in changing the manager with no funds'' etc etc, I just wanted to point out to those arguing that his tactics are not to blame, the reason why he is clearly playing the wrong system.

I do not proclaim to be the next Matthew, Clough, Fergie et al, but I do have a huge amount of experience as a semi-professional coach and manager and have many acquaintances high up in the game to take advice from as well as having coached some now professional players. That is a fact and not a boast before people harp on about me claiming to know more than Thorn, I don't but I do have more managerial experience, albeit at a lower level.

To play the passing diamond you need to pass at pace, you need your players to MOVE, you need your players to want the ball, you almost need the diamond to rotate like a wheel and gather round whoever has the ball, to allow the intricate nature of this system to work. However, most importantly, you need TO GRADUALLY MOVE FORWARD, whilst constantly passing round the diamond. WE DON'T do that, so the diamond, although allowing us to keep possession, generally moves in the opposite direction (backwards) with the players staying rooted to their basic positions. This is a clear and very basic floor in football management.

The solution? To play an adaptive 5-3-2 to 3-5-1-1 system, simple. This would suit our players. Allow me to explain.

We continually get overrun in midfield, we continually have gaps at the back and our forwards are continually too far apart. The system would work like this, and this is why it would suit our players:

When in defence the system would look:

Murphy

Christie - Keogh - Cranie/Mcpake/Cameron - Wood - Hussey

Clingan

Thomas Deegan

Juke McDonald

This packs the defence, both down the sides and the middle, with a combination of height, power and finesse whilst leaving Clingan in almost a sweeper role and the ability to outlet the ball to the midfield 3.

When attacking the system would look like:

Murphy

Keogh - Cranie/Mcpake/Cameron - Wood

Clingan

Christie Thomas Deegan Hussey

McDonald

Juke

This allows natural width when attacking, pushes Juke and Mcdonald closer together and allows a total of 4 midfielders to attack with CLingan sitting back. This also forces the opposition to drop a stiker deeper meaning a slower break, as we do seem to be hit by speedy breaks (a'la Millwall/Southampton) and incase of a sudden break up of our play from the opposition and hoof forward, e have both Keogh and Wood who can move across to almost full-back position. In any case when one of the wing-backs is attacking, the other would hang back, so we would still in essence have 4 players in defence.

This system negates the need to play Bell/Baker and would also work better for Platt and McSheffrey if required.

I am not saying this should always be used, but due to the way we play the diamond and the natural tendancy for Hussey and Christie to attack the flanks (leaving us open with the diamond), and teh fact this would also mean that opposition teams could not attack as freely, should be our default system.

Just my 2 cents. ''Grabs popcorn and awaits abuse.''

Would agree with a lot of that. Our movement is shocking.
 

procdoc

Well-Known Member
Knowledge, I agree with you mate. People will take the piss about your credentials but don't worry about it. You don't have to be Alex Ferguson to see that the diamond isn't working. I've managed at sunday league level which is a very basic standard and even I know that if you haven't got pace in midfield positions it's easier to play wing backs. I back Thorn because he's had shite treatment off the board but it's now his job, no matter how hard it is, to come up with a system them makes us more resolute, harder to break down and more of a goal threat at the same time. That won't be easy!
 

kg82

Well-Known Member
Did you actually read the post? If I hadn't stated the experience part people would be harping on that I don't have any, so I stated that I do, whilst also stating it doesn't make me a genius etc. Again, where you state what is wrong, did you actually read the post? This just weakens your objection, please focus on the football side.

All for alternative opinions, but yet to see one that doesn't resort to trying to correct me on what I have already stated.

What? The point is hardly anybody on here has "credentials" so why bother pulling them out? It's a forum, you're allowed an opinion without resorting to I did this and that.
 

kingharvest

New Member
Whilst I agree with your overall assessment of our situation I think the telling part is your statement "To play the passing diamond you need to pass at pace, you need your players to MOVE, you need your players to want the ball" - we have a midfield devoid of pace Bell, Clingan, Baker, Deegan, McSheffrey have the speed of geriatric glaciers, none of them have any desire to work and move into space, in fact a couple of them positively avoid doing that in the hope of not not getting the ball ie they don't want the ball.
Overall there is nothing wrong with the formation its simply we do not have the players to make it effective and my criticism of Thorn is that he persists with it even though we don't have the personnel to make it work. He needs to look at what limited resources he has and adopt a system that suits their limited ability and desire, or else simply shove the wasters on the bench ie: McSheff, Bell and Baker and just play the kids in a system that suits them. The diamond needs pace and hard work - our senior player are not delivering so either change the system or change the personnel (bring the kids permanently) but AT needs to do something and bloody quick.

We don't have any raw pace in the side - but i think you're slightly missing the point. The diamond can be successful without pace, but it does require you to move the ball quickly. You don't necessarily need quick players - Chelsea were really successful with it and they had Makelele and Lampard in it!

However that does slightly highlight a flaw. I quite like the diamond. It generally makes us difficult to break down (the last few games aside - a lot of which was to do with basic defensive errors) but when chelsea used it they had feckin Makelele at the base of the diamond! MAKELELE! one of the best players in that position at the time. We have Clingan, who lets face it, is no ball winner, and is probably better off roaming.

Good post that Knowledge, makes alot of sense to me - however it is slightly worthless as it'll never happen.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
The other flaw in it is that hussey, clarke, wood, McPake and cranie are all injured. That leaves only Christie, keogh and Cameron.

I admit that the diamond hasn't been a rip roaring success this season. I do think the major problem has been the inability to put the same side out for a decent run of games. We have ha 11 different starting line ups in the league this season, and have never put the same side out more than 2 games running.

Also there are still not enough goals in that team.
 

ajsccfc

Well-Known Member
If my management experience is anything to go by, we can rocket up the table by repeatedly loading the game again until we get the desired result.
 

torchomatic

Well-Known Member
Are you saying that the five players you mentioned have no DESIRE to play for Coventry City? I find that statement remarkable, to be honest. No, they're not the fastest players around, but is that their fault? I would say it's not. They are who they are and they are playing in our midfield because we haven't got anyone else. That doesn't mean they don't want to play for Coventry City.

I desire to run 100 metres in under ten seconds but I can't. My fault?

we have a midfield devoid of pace Bell, Clingan, Baker, Deegan, McSheffrey have the speed of geriatric glaciers, none of them have any desire to work and move into space, in fact a couple of them positively avoid doing that in the hope of not not getting the ball ie they don't want the ball.
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
Are you saying that the five players you mentioned have no DESIRE to play for Coventry City? I find that statement remarkable, to be honest. No, they're not the fastest players around, but is that their fault? I would say it's not. They are who they are and they are playing in our midfield because we haven't got anyone else. That doesn't mean they don't want to play for Coventry City.

I desire to run 100 metres in under ten seconds but I can't. My fault?

Yes. Buy some more expensive trainers.
 

city old boy

New Member
We can all see there's a problem so why can't Thorn. Last week he stated in the cov tel there's no problem with the diamond.

Good threads Knowledge

Time to go ANDY time to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

speedie87

Well-Known Member
part the reason the diamond doesn't work is the amount of ground the 2 full backs and the 2 players in the middle of the diamond have to cover..............they have to cover so much ground when we haven't got the ball that when we do get it they are too knackered to make runs forward
 

Otis

Well-Known Member
part the reason the diamond doesn't work is the amount of ground the 2 full backs and the 2 players in the middle of the diamond have to cover..............they have to cover so much ground when we haven't got the ball that when we do get it they are too knackered to make runs forward


Fair point. Basically pretty much all of our crosses come from the full back positions, so they do indeed have a lot of ground to cover.
 

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