Fisher on new stadium (1 Viewer)

italiahorse · Mar 9, 2015

duffer said:
It would take a lot longer than that, in truth, when you take interest into account. I think TF's argument has always been that it wouldn't be that much debt, but until he comes up with at least some top line figures it's hard to see how it works even if you get the £25m down to say £10m.

Regardless, we're just as stuck with Wasps as landlords. For everyone that says that we should 'do a deal' with them, no one has ever been able to put forward a proposal of what that deal would look like.

The truth is that Wasps need the 24/7/365 revenue from ACL as much as we do - what can they actually give CCFC that we haven't already got (a cheapish rental with part of the matchday takings)?

From a purely business standpoint, as I see it the best chance for CCFC to stay at the Ricoh and prosper has to be Wasps failing. I can't help but feel that this is SISU's primary plan - nothing else seems to add up.

I agree.
If Sisu's plan is to wait for Wasps to fail that will only put us back where we were before.
We will then have to wait again for Sisu to try and get the Arena by starving ACL and perhaps even taking up the option of Northampton again.
A lot of fans including myself will be long gone.

I may be naive but I see the only plan for us is at the Ricoh.
Wasps must be vulnerable at the moment so we need to get some sort of tie in 'now' on long term rental and that should include good access to incomes that we generate.

If we could say get 50/50 on football matchday profits generated by use of all the facilities like bars, food outlets, car parking, fanzone, etc that would be good.
We need to be able to personalise areas of the stadium intermingling with Wasps posters and signs.
Advertising will be difficult at our level as we have very little coverage but we should be getting something off the back of Wasps.

We can't expect access to other incomes like hotel, casino and exhibition areas as we have not bought into them yet.
Long term Sisu will hopefully go and Wasps will gain confidence in the new owners and allow us to buy a share of ACL enabling us to get access to other incomes.

I'm hoping that this year is as a result of Fair Play rules and that we survive this year and them make a challenge for promotion.
Once we start winning the fans will come back and coupled with above we can survive through the Championship.

The fly in the ointment is that if Wasps get established, don't need us financially and then just charge us rent and say 'take it or leave it'
If the JR starts to threaten Wasps this will become a reality.

steveecov · Mar 9, 2015

CCFC on my mind; England vs. Bangladesh on the radio. Where are my tablets?

Sky Blue Kid · Mar 9, 2015

To cut a long story short, SISU were sick as pigs that they were charged £1.3m pa. rent. Their train of thought was, we(SISU) could be charging that to CCFC along with the other charges(Management, interest) I may be wrong of course....but I don't think so!.

Gosford Green · Mar 9, 2015

SISU have not even approached any local authority about a site. Why do they not quit the lies, they have lost so many fans already with their actions.
Moving the club out of Coventry will lose even more.

According to the accounts notes they have a retention on sixfields, there is also court action pending with Wasps which will probably mean another Ricoh exit and another record breaking season after in league 2.

steveecov · Mar 9, 2015

I'm amazed that the investors who SISU represent are still on board. They must be making ginormous returns elsewhere in their portfolios.

People might say it's relatively little to them.

Most people with their snout in the trough, don't want to offer crumbs to those who don't.

Godiva · Mar 9, 2015

Sky Blue Kid said:
To cut a long story short, SISU were sick as pigs that they were charged £1.3m pa. rent. Their train of thought was, we(SISU) could be charging that to CCFC along with the other charges(Management, interest) I may be wrong of course....but I don't think so!.

Enlighten me please - what do you mean 'management fees'? Where does it go? How much is it?

Ian1779 · Mar 9, 2015

Didn't Fisher reveal this information about a year or so ago? It's not like it's an exclusive or anything.

That said - if SISU go tomorrow the new owner will be faced with the same dilemma, and if they did build a new stadium would probably do it in exactly the same way.

steveecov · Mar 9, 2015

Some were mentioning the "Arsenal" model...like we are similar?...but they ....identified ( and stated) the site and got a fan backlash. They had many more obstacles, but went from start to finish in as much time as we seem to be taking finding this site.

steveecov · Mar 9, 2015

Ian1779 said:
Didn't Fisher reveal this information about a year or so ago? It's not like it's an exclusive or anything.

That said - if SISU go tomorrow the new owner will be faced with the same dilemma, and if they did build a new stadium would probably do it in exactly the same way.

That is why CCFC is so sad to all of us fans. It really does feel like a bereavement.

bigfatronssba · Mar 9, 2015

Godiva said:
Not really anywhere, it must be within the football complex. But yes, the club could buy facilities at the Ricoh at cost and arrange events to boost FFP/SMCP budget.

So does club shop revenue not count towards ffp?

Ian1779 · Mar 9, 2015

bigfatronssba said:
So does club shop revenue not count towards ffp?

It has to be in the direct vicinity of the ground/complex or explicity a part of the club marketing/sales structure (using the club logo for example)

steveecov · Mar 9, 2015

That'll be moved to the farm shop. Will have a few vegetables to sell too, not all from the earth.

Godiva · Mar 9, 2015

bigfatronssba said:
So does club shop revenue not count towards ffp?

Yes, but that is football related merchandises. A non-football related event (like a concert) must be at the stadium to count towards FFP/SMCP.

sparky · Mar 9, 2015

Sshmmee trust me if we had 100% revenues for the club 365 a year, a fan base of thousands a low rate fee per year for a nice new ground, a club whose wages are real cheap, turning over profit with 23 days income in league 1 if someone took over this summer were payin 11 first team wages which is nothin someone can build on that a manager just till end of season with the tv deal in prem just been announced someone will pay 40million for us

steveecov · Mar 9, 2015

Even when we go to the coast...say Skeggy..you get all the big team souvenirs,. but also teams like Mansfield and the likes. CCFC branded products? Not a chance.

bigfatronssba · Mar 9, 2015

Godiva said:
Yes, but that is football related merchandises. A non-football related event (like a concert) must be at the stadium to count towards FFP/SMCP.

What if it was at the training ground?

Godiva · Mar 9, 2015

bigfatronssba said:
What if it was at the training ground?

Good question - I don't know.

bigfatronssba · Mar 9, 2015

Ian1779 said:
It has to be in the direct vicinity of the ground/complex or explicity a part of the club marketing/sales structure (using the club logo for example)

Why don't they buy the land on the other side of the railway and build an exhibition hall there?

steveecov · Mar 9, 2015

bigfatronssba said:
What if it was at the training ground?

What? Training, that'd be a start.

Ian1779 · Mar 9, 2015

bigfatronssba said:
Why don't they buy the land on the other side of the railway and build an exhibition hall there?

If they did they could argue that it is associated with the club (and in immediate vicinity) and would probably be able to count it.

shmmeee · Mar 9, 2015

See, this is where Sisu's sneaky lawyers would come in handy.

What if we send a player along to a function (say the Diamond Club Dinner or whatever) does that then become football related?

Can we just send a random academy kid along to any old thing and make it football related?

dongonzalos · Mar 9, 2015

Godiva said:
acl.

And who owns ACL?
So who really is paying the interest on the loan?

Whoever owns the equivalent of ACL (us) in the new stadium will be paying the interest on the loan. Like what happens at the Ricoh with Wasps.

So we currently pay 1.5-2 million interest. We will probably need to double that (at least) 3-4 million interest? If we build a new stadium.

This will count against us in terms of FFP if we are promoted.

What is the net benefit of the increase in revenue of a 12-15 k stadium.

In comparison to giving wasps an offer they can't refuse for halve if ACL?

Ian1779 · Mar 9, 2015

shmmeee said:
See, this is where Sisu's sneaky lawyers would come in handy.

What if we send a player along to a function (say the Diamond Club Dinner or whatever) does that then become football related?

Can we just send a random academy kid along to any old thing and make it football related?

I imagine things like this have been looked at and tried by other clubs.

Sky Blue Kid · Mar 9, 2015

Godiva said:
Enlighten me please - what do you mean 'management fees'? Where does it go? How much is it?

Sick and tired of going back to show evidence. I'm not the only one who can show you proof either. @ cochese............You are being shown FACTS that you originally disbelieved...Or was it that you couldn't be A**ed to look for it? This is the 4th time (In total) of "Showing" people like you......................Astute was right...They are MISMANAGEMENT FEES.....................................CCFC Ltd shows a total income in the year to 31 May 2011 of £10,267,7089 (2010, £9,291,108) an increase of just under £1 Million on the previous year, with Sponsorship, advertising, club shop & promotions contributing £6,341,808 (2010, £4,930,590) and match day receipts of £3,925,900 (2010, £4,360,518). CCFC Holdings Ltd has a total income in the year to 31 May 2011 of £4,478,157 (2010, £4,432,954), which is a small increase on the previous year, with sponsorship, advertising, club shop & promotions contributing £1,791,315 (2010, £1,663,196) and charging management fees of £2,686,842 (2010, £2,769,758). Who these management fees are paid to is not disclosed.

Sky Blue Kid · Mar 9, 2015

With all the f**king around that SISU do, if someone was interested enough, they would probably find out about up to date management fees and interest charges too

dadgad · Mar 9, 2015

The Reverend Skyblue said:
Every time this prick opens his big fat gob it makes my blood boil. Everytime that gob opens he causes harm

If he had done his job properly and kept his gob shut he wouldn't have pissed off every fucker from the council and Higgs, and just as importantly the fans, the company he works for only asset.

He could have position the club by building relationships with them to be in a place to buy the Ricoh for what Wasps paid for it, if not cheaper.

The way he has treated the fans with his patronising bullshit has caused irreparable damage to what any relationship was there between the owners and supporters.

Sisu need to get this clown away from the club asap, if they have any wish to try and rebuild something with the fans.

He is an absolute hate figure

THIS. Every word true. Worst 'chairperson' know to football.

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 9, 2015

Godiva said:
I know there are plenty experts in shooting down ideas on this forum. But they have no influence on whether a new stadium will be build or not.
There is no evidence that the stadium will ever become a reality, but there's plenty of logical reasons why it should providing the business plan is sound.

You suggest that because there's no named investors after two years, that is evidence the stadium will not be build. It's not. Investors won't be invited until land has been identified, conditionally purchased and a prospect been drafted.

You can call it a shed, a Lego land or whatever, but it's only angry noises without foundation until plans are revealed.

Sorry; just can't see how this chicken and egg cycle can be broken. You say investors won't be approached until such time as land has been identified and conditionally purchased; but equally I can't see how you can get that far without an investor on board. At least provisionally. And this complicated by the issue that if this is to be a 'super development', as those to which parallels have been drawn at other clubs; all of this brown-field land has now been taken. Can you think of anywhere where there's space and infrastructure readied to accept a football ground/retail park and housing anywhere close to Coventry?

There's nothing in Fisher's latest statement that's anything other than a statement of the bleeding-obvious. It's rhetoric. And moreover, nothing it the narrative of his latest business thinking that's so fundamentally different from the thinking that should have made them buy into ACL and the Ricoh; as opposed to the disastrous route they decide to follow instead

Mary_Mungo_Midge · Mar 9, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7GuWeqji_Q

fernandopartridge · Mar 9, 2015

Sky Blue Kid said:
Sick and tired of going back to show evidence. I'm not the only one who can show you proof either. @ cochese............You are being shown FACTS that you originally disbelieved...Or was it that you couldn't be A**ed to look for it? This is the 4th time (In total) of "Showing" people like you......................Astute was right...They are MISMANAGEMENT FEES.....................................CCFC Ltd shows a total income in the year to 31 May 2011 of £10,267,7089 (2010, £9,291,108) an increase of just under £1 Million on the previous year, with Sponsorship, advertising, club shop & promotions contributing £6,341,808 (2010, £4,930,590) and match day receipts of £3,925,900 (2010, £4,360,518). CCFC Holdings Ltd has a total income in the year to 31 May 2011 of £4,478,157 (2010, £4,432,954), which is a small increase on the previous year, with sponsorship, advertising, club shop & promotions contributing £1,791,315 (2010, £1,663,196) and charging management fees of £2,686,842 (2010, £2,769,758). Who these management fees are paid to is not disclosed.

Your last sentence concedes the point

Sky Blue Kid · Mar 9, 2015

fernandopartridge said:
Your last sentence concedes the point

How the fuck does it concede the point? There are lots of disbelievers on this forum as to wether Management fees are paid. You've just been shown that they are charged. I've never seen Grendel "Concede the point" when claiming estimated transfer fees as a fact...have you? These Management fees, were taken from official sources(FOI)....Now what the fuck am I supposed to say when the "OFFICIAL SOURCE" doesn't/can't disclose who these fees are paid too??? Suffice to say that they ARE PAID ok? Is that explanation too hard for you to comprehend?

Sky Blue Kid · Mar 9, 2015

Just for you "Canyouhearthedrums..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-f_DPrSEOEo

duffer · Mar 9, 2015

italiahorse said:
I agree.
If Sisu's plan is to wait for Wasps to fail that will only put us back where we were before.
We will then have to wait again for Sisu to try and get the Arena by starving ACL and perhaps even taking up the option of Northampton again.
A lot of fans including myself will be long gone.

I may be naive but I see the only plan for us is at the Ricoh.
Wasps must be vulnerable at the moment so we need to get some sort of tie in 'now' on long term rental and that should include good access to incomes that we generate.

If we could say get 50/50 on football matchday profits generated by use of all the facilities like bars, food outlets, car parking, fanzone, etc that would be good.
We need to be able to personalise areas of the stadium intermingling with Wasps posters and signs.
Advertising will be difficult at our level as we have very little coverage but we should be getting something off the back of Wasps.

We can't expect access to other incomes like hotel, casino and exhibition areas as we have not bought into them yet.
Long term Sisu will hopefully go and Wasps will gain confidence in the new owners and allow us to buy a share of ACL enabling us to get access to other incomes.

I'm hoping that this year is as a result of Fair Play rules and that we survive this year and them make a challenge for promotion.
Once we start winning the fans will come back and coupled with above we can survive through the Championship.

The fly in the ointment is that if Wasps get established, don't need us financially and then just charge us rent and say 'take it or leave it'
If the JR starts to threaten Wasps this will become a reality.

The problem I see here is that we're already getting a share of the matchday revenues, if I've read the latest stuff correctly. I'm not sure that there's much more to come on that front, especially given how low attendences are now.

And even if we had new owners, I don't see that Wasps could sell us what they claim to need for themselves in terms of the other incomes from ACL.

As for promotion to the Championship, I think the FFP/SCMP protocols are even tougher there, which is why Fisher has talked about the current Ricoh model being unsustainable in that division.

I think you've got to work on the assumption that Wasps are hard-headed businessmen - whether they're effected by the JR or not, the next rental negotiation will be on a strictly commercial basis. If you look at it from their point of view, they've already handled the worst PR going in terms of moving here - they're not going to worry too much about pissing off CCFC fans.

Godiva · Mar 9, 2015

Sky Blue Kid said:
Sick and tired of going back to show evidence. I'm not the only one who can show you proof either. @ cochese............You are being shown FACTS that you originally disbelieved...Or was it that you couldn't be A**ed to look for it? This is the 4th time (In total) of "Showing" people like you......................Astute was right...They are MISMANAGEMENT FEES.....................................CCFC Ltd shows a total income in the year to 31 May 2011 of £10,267,7089 (2010, £9,291,108) an increase of just under £1 Million on the previous year, with Sponsorship, advertising, club shop & promotions contributing £6,341,808 (2010, £4,930,590) and match day receipts of £3,925,900 (2010, £4,360,518). CCFC Holdings Ltd has a total income in the year to 31 May 2011 of £4,478,157 (2010, £4,432,954), which is a small increase on the previous year, with sponsorship, advertising, club shop & promotions contributing £1,791,315 (2010, £1,663,196) and charging management fees of £2,686,842 (2010, £2,769,758). Who these management fees are paid to is not disclosed.

You're sick and tired ... you only have yourself to blame. If you want to avoid this question again, then you should understand the concept of management fees. I think it has been explained about a hundred times on this forum and probably a few times to you specifically.

Anyway, you include figures from 2010. Since then the whole group structure has changed and the club is no longer CCFC ltd/CCFC H.

This is what OSB says about management fees in an attempt to bust that myth:

oldskyblue58 said:
Just something else that keeps being mentioned

management charges.

There are no details in the published accounts of Otium paying management charges to anyone.

What did used to happen was that CCFC Ltd paid CCFC H management charges of around 2.6m. That was disclosed as income in CCFC H Ltd and formed part of administrative expenses in CCFC Ltd. When the Group accounts were put together the two amounts contra out to nil. The purpose of these management charges was to transfer costs from CCFC H and to attribute them to CCFC Ltd (eg the rent was shown in CCFC H but clearly the lease was held by CCFC Ltd)

No other disclosures have been made concerning management charges. If they had been paid to SISU then this should have been disclosed in the notes to accounts under related parties.

hill83 · Mar 9, 2015

I love Skybluekid

Brighton Sky Blue · Mar 9, 2015

skybluepm2 said:
I'd rather it went to Wasps than into the back pocket of that Finnish whore. There will be no escape if they go ahead with fantasy arena.

I know we don't fill the Ricoh but the potential is there, we all know that. I'm happy going every week a 1/4 full in the hope that one day our luck will turn and we will be rid of SISU. A move outside of the City, in a 12,000 seater ground built of Lego by those tossers will be the final nail in the coffin. Who do they think is going to follow them there?

The money goes to Derek Richardson and his Maltese businesses.

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