FA allows sex discrimination (3 Viewers)

oakey · May 23, 2024

I am not concerned that transwomen pose a danger in women's spaces. That is really not the issue for me.
I don't want male bodies in women's facilities as they don't belong there.
Note - difficult to be precise but best estimates indicate only around 5 per cent of transgender MTF have the surgery that some call a "sex change". Thus around 95 per cent will have fully intact genitals.
Now, they may be discreet, respectful, use a cubicle etc but, sorry, I'm not comfortable with that.
They should demand a separate facility if they are uncomfortable in the men's.

chiefdave · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
I am not concerned that transwomen pose a danger in women's spaces. That is really not the issue for me.
I don't want male bodies in women's facilities as they don't belong there.
Note - difficult to be precise but best estimates indicate only around 5 per cent of transgender MTF have the surgery that some call a "sex change". Thus around 95 per cent will have fully intact genitals.
Now, they may be discreet, respectful, use a cubicle etc but, sorry, I'm not comfortable with that.
They should demand a separate facility if they are uncomfortable in the men's.

The thing that always strikes me about this is who polices this? Has anyone on here ever been asked to prove their gender, at birth or otherwise, when entering a public toilet or changing facility?

You mention 'they may be discreet, respectful, use a cubicle etc' so if we're assuming nobody is being employed and trained to enforce this and it is therefore down largely to self policing on what basis are people being challenged to prove their gender at birth?

rob9872 · May 23, 2024

chiefdave said:
The thing that always strikes me about this is who polices this? Has anyone on here ever been asked to prove their gender, at birth or otherwise, when entering a public toilet or changing facility?

You mention 'they may be discreet, respectful, use a cubicle etc' so if we're assuming nobody is being employed and trained to enforce this and it is therefore down largely to self policing on what basis are people being challenged to prove their gender at birth?

Adams apple mate, always worth a check
Big hairy hands also a bit of a giveaway.

oakey · May 23, 2024

chiefdave said:
The thing that always strikes me about this is who polices this? Has anyone on here ever been asked to prove their gender, at birth or otherwise, when entering a public toilet or changing facility?

You mention 'they may be discreet, respectful, use a cubicle etc' so if we're assuming nobody is being employed and trained to enforce this and it is therefore down largely to self policing on what basis are people being challenged to prove their gender at birth?

The same way as for the last century. Most facilities are managed. Report your concerns and get branded a "Karen"

Grendel · May 23, 2024

SBT said:
My understanding is that there are (a very small number of) people who genuinely, sincerely consider themselves to be women, and who want to play women’s sport not because they want to invade women’s spaces, or unfairly dominate a less competitive sporting category, but because they feel safer and more comfortable playing with people they identify with.

Maybe you disagree, and you think those people are all just deranged and/or opportunists. I can see why you’d have no sympathy for anyone like that (I certainly wouldn’t). And a trans person being genuine and sincere in their intentions doesn’t automatically mean I think they should get a free pass either. But is it wrong to ask someone if they sympathise with their situation?

It’s not wrong to sympathise but it is wrong to categorise them in the same way as biological women and if a biological woman objects to a biological male occupying a perceived safe space they have every right to object.

duffer · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
Duffer
I fully accept that there are a small number of transgender people (male) who may wish to play in the women's game. This matters not. Even one is a category breach. Women have long campaigned for their own stuff and it must be protected. Would you have allowed Pistorius to run with his blades? Only one guy who had suffered horrendous misfortune. I think not.
In future there may well be hybrid/trans humans who have enhanced body parts. That will provoke a similar debate.
There are plenty of women who don't mind allowing transgender people (male) to play for various reasons. Some don't think it matters, some are just grateful to play, others are scared of being called transphobic, others are used to being "kind" and standing aside for others.
They are naive in my view and haven't seen that this is sloppy seconds.
If you're looking for evidence that women and girls are being put off, it's there anecdotally. Evidence of this kind is hard to collate. Few organisations record reasons why people drop out.
You have recognised that your daughters faced obstacles in playing sport. Why would you want to add more? What would your daughters gain from playing against males who are 10 per cent bigger, stronger, taller, faster on average? In mixed teams there is a degree of fairness but there is greater risk of injury to the females. That is one reason why mixed sex sports are almost all outlawed by governing bodies.

I think the difference is that I don't see trans women as a genuine obstacle to other women or girls playing football.

There are other issues to girls getting into sport that impact far higher numbers than a handful of trans athletes, surely? Societal attitudes, gender bias, lack of facilities, basic uniform etc. etc..

Politely, I don't see you focusing on those here, why is that?

I think you've also got to be careful in your assumption that trans women are always going to be stronger than other women. That's not always the case either, is it.

Can I just make the point that in any team sport at the levels that most play at, you'll always find differences in physical strength. In age grade teams in particular there are substantial differences in size and strength in both boys and girls football. That never bothered me as either a player or parent.

We obviously differ on this. I respect your opinion on it, but I don't completely agree with it I'm afraid.

Personally I think there are far bigger issues than the trans one to be concerned about if access to sport for women and girls is your primary concern.

Grendel · May 23, 2024

napolimp said:
It's nothing to do with being polite, it's part of the equalities act - so the law. I really don't think people understand this. You continuously calling trans women "men" is discrimination, BY LAW, and I don't understand why you have to keep doing it to make your point.

I don’t think JK Rowling was deemed to have committed an offence here

JK Rowling: Trans newsreader India Willoughby calls comments by Harry Potter author 'grotesque transphobia'

The argument began on Sunday, when the author dismissed a video of Willoughby as "a man revelling in his misogynistic performance of what he thinks 'woman' means: narcissistic, shallow and exhibitionist".

news.sky.com

chiefdave · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
The same way as for the last century. Most facilities are managed. Report your concerns and get branded a "Karen"

You mentioned in an earlier post your concern that 'women and girls are being put off' from playing sport. I'm not sure that singling out individuals and reporting them for what seems to equate to not looking feminine enough is going to create a welcoming atmosphere.

chiefdave · May 23, 2024

duffer said:
I think you've also got to be careful in your assumption that trans women are always going to be stronger than other women. That's not always the case either, is it.

Can I just make the point that in any team sport at the levels that most play at, you'll always find differences in physical strength. In age grade teams in particular there are substantial differences in size and strength in both boys and girls football. That never bothered me as either a player or parent.

Heard someone who has studied this mention their concern that 'advantage' and 'unfair advantage' are being used interchangeably.

A 7 foot basketball player has an advantage over a 6 foot basketball player. Nobody is suggesting basketball players be segregated by physical characteristics.

Nick · May 23, 2024

chiefdave said:
The thing that always strikes me about this is who polices this? Has anyone on here ever been asked to prove their gender, at birth or otherwise, when entering a public toilet or changing facility?

10 year ban from Cov baths.

clint van damme · May 23, 2024

There was an incident in Canada where 3 women were injured by the same trans player during a game of rugby.

I'm sorry, but that's not acceptable and shows a disregard for women's safety.

Grendel · May 23, 2024

chiefdave said:
Heard someone who has studied this mention their concern that 'advantage' and 'unfair advantage' are being used interchangeably.

A 7 foot basketball player has an advantage over a 6 foot basketball player. Nobody is suggesting basketball players be segregated by physical characteristics.

I refer you to Renee Richards - if a tennis player in the mens game was ranked 100 they would beat every single woman easily

Nick · May 23, 2024

chiefdave said:
A 7 foot basketball player has an advantage over a 6 foot basketball player. Nobody is suggesting basketball players be segregated by physical characteristics.

Like I said, why not let me join an Under 10's league then?

oakey · May 23, 2024

chiefdave said:
You mentioned in an earlier post your concern that 'women and girls are being put off' from playing sport. I'm not sure that singling out individuals and reporting them for what seems to equate to not looking feminine enough is going to create a welcoming atmosphere.

I have never, and would never, report someone for not looking feminine enough. I would probably only report someone who I was fairly certain is a male and in a changing room and not in a public toilet.

chiefdave · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
I have never, and would never, report someone for not looking feminine enough. I would probably only report someone who I was fairly certain is a male and in a changing room and not in a public toilet.

What are you criteria you are applying to establish if someone meets your threshold for reporting?

SBT · May 23, 2024

Nick said:
Like I said, why not let me join an Under 10's league then?

Because as a society, we make no legal or cultural allowances or considerations for people who claim to identify as a different age. Probably because - unlike with trans people - they don’t really exist as a community in any meaningful sense.

OffenhamSkyBlue · May 23, 2024

napolimp said:
So as a woman it sounds as though you are worried about access to sports for fellow women, and I presume you are also worried that trans women using women's spaces could pose a danger to yourself?

For what it's worth, I'm not a woman, but those are the arguments, yes. But it comes down to dignity and respect for women too, and many will find the presence of a biological male (a term which is not contrary to EA 2010) unsettling or anxiety inducing.

rob9872 · May 23, 2024

With all due respect, whenever there is an argument on race on this board, most generally and rightly so, take the views on board of those who are Black or Asian, as they have direct first hand experience to tell people they're talking bollocks.

Why is it equally therefore not accepted that Oakey, the one biological female posting in this thread, isn't given the same level of understanding and courtesy, as we can't know how she feels or what are her perceptions. I'm not saying blindly follow as I wouldn't with a race issue either, but it seems her opinion is fighting on her own against a bit of a pile on.

Even if she does bang on a bit

oakey · May 23, 2024

duffer said:
I think the difference is that I don't see trans women as a genuine obstacle to other women or girls playing football.

There are other issues to girls getting into sport that impact far higher numbers than a handful of trans athletes, surely? Societal attitudes, gender bias, lack of facilities, basic uniform etc. etc..

Politely, I don't see you focusing on those here, why is that?

I think you've also got to be careful in your assumption that trans women are always going to be stronger than other women. That's not always the case either, is it.

Can I just make the point that in any team sport at the levels that most play at, you'll always find differences in physical strength. In age grade teams in particular there are substantial differences in size and strength in both boys and girls football. That never bothered me as either a player or parent.

We obviously differ on this. I respect your opinion on it, but I don't completely agree with it I'm afraid.

Personally I think there are far bigger issues than the trans one to be concerned about if access to sport for women and girls is your primary concern.

You can decide for yourself that other issues are more important but not what I should focus on.
"Look over there".

You can suggest that since I haven't started a thread about a,b,y and z issues then I don't care about them. Whataboutery.

You are free to minimise the issue or say it's not a priority.

If women can't defend their own rights and boundaries all the other issues will be lost anyway.

Societal attitudes, gender bias, lack of facilities - all are linked ...
+ Be kind and inclusive.
+ Girls sports don't really matter
+ Not all males are stronger etc
+ Stop making a fuss
+ Isn't there more important things to focus on

SBT · May 23, 2024

rob9872 said:
Why is it equally therefore not accepted that Oakey, the one biological female posting in this thread, isn't given the same level of understanding and courtesy, as we can't know how she feels or what are her perceptions. I'm not saying blindly follow as I wouldn't with a race issue either, but it seems her opinion is fighting on her own against a bit of a pile on.

Seems to me this discussion has been generally speaking pretty courteous and informative, and no-one on either side of the debate is being piled on for anything.

duffer · May 23, 2024

rob9872 said:
With all due respect, whenever there is an argument on race on this board, most generally and rightly so, take the views on board of those who are Black or Asian, as they have direct first hand experience to tell people they're talking bollocks.

Why is it equally therefore not accepted that Oakey, the one biological female posting in this thread, isn't given the same level of understanding and courtesy, as we can't know how she feels or what are her perceptions. I'm not saying blindly follow as I wouldn't with a race issue either, but it seems her opinion is fighting on her own against a bit of a pile on.

Even if she does bang on a bit

All I can say mate, is that I accept Oakey has strong opinions on the matter, but it's not unfair to challenge her politely, is it?

I'm also not claiming that I'm right either, I don't think this is an area with any easy answers.

Just being a woman doesn't necessarily make Oakey right either though, clearly there are other women who differ from her on this.

(I respect also your position as an endangered minority hereabouts! )

oakey · May 23, 2024

chiefdave said:
What are you criteria you are applying to establish if someone meets your threshold for reporting?

- 64 years of experience living in a small female body
- I have been sexually assaulted several times by males, including twice inside Highfield road stadium when I was pinned against some railings.
- I have been punched by a male outside Highfield rd.
- I have been pushed and threatened several times in my life by aggressive males.

Most women have a tension if alone with a male they don't know and an instinct for when a male is present.
I trust my judgement but I would be more likely to leave than report.

covcity4life · May 23, 2024

Grendel said:
The same views in general actually including not invading a females space. I don’t suppose it was discussed but it’s just a case of respecting females and not making them have to accept something they don’t want.

Regarding sport the interesting thing that’s not discussed is when it’s the other way round. Theres no clamour whatsoever for women identifying as men to play men’s sport.

The best example of advantages occurred in the 70s when Renee Richard’s had a full transformation. Richard’s when make was a washed up tennis player around 300th in the world was his best achievement.

He changed gender and entered the women’s game. At 47 Richard’s was in the top 20 and said if the transition happened when he was in his 20’s he’d have dominated the women’s game as the power and height gave huge advantages

I don't disagree when it comes to sport

Can only think of one solution and that is an all trans league. But probably not enough people for that. I'm not sure

oakey · May 23, 2024

Just to add I have been in some scrapes with women too. But they were as different as night from day.

San Francisco · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
- 64 years of experience living in a small female body
- I have been sexually assaulted several times by males, including twice inside Highfield road stadium when I was pinned against some railings.
- I have been punched by a male outside Highfield rd.
- I have been pushed and threatened several times in my life by aggressive males.

Most women have a tension if alone with a male they don't know and an instinct for when a male is present.
I trust my judgement but I would be more likely to leave than report.

Sad to read this. And also sad to see some users on here (one in particular) thinking it's acceptable to belittle you and your experiences just so they can have their momentary feeling of moral righteousness.
Crazy to think that allowing trans women in women's football teams is more important to them than women's safety. I'd like to see what the women in their lives would think if they read their comments.

duffer · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
You can decide for yourself that other issues are more important but not what I should focus on.
"Look over there".

You can suggest that since I haven't started a thread about a,b,y and z issues then I don't care about them. Whataboutery.

You are free to minimise the issue or say it's not a priority.

If women can't defend their own rights and boundaries all the other issues will be lost anyway.

Societal attitudes, gender bias, lack of facilities - all are linked ...
+ Be kind and inclusive.
+ Girls sports don't really matter
+ Not all males are stronger etc
+ Stop making a fuss
+ Isn't there more important things to focus on

I think you're putting words in my mouth there, is it unreasonable to ask why if you're so concerned about girls access to sport you'd be so focussed on this single issue?

I'm not trying to minimise it, but I think it's also not unreasonable to point out that you've highlighted a few individual cases in a sport played by millions.

You've asserted it's about physical strength, which isn't unfair, but it's also not unfair to point out that this isn't as black and white as you'd say either.

Even your own experience of being restricted from playing football is more about gender bias and access rather than trans rights, isn't it?

I'm also not saying I've got all of the answers - you seem to be the only one here convinced of that.

oakey · May 23, 2024

duffer said:
I think you're putting words in my mouth there, is it unreasonable to ask why if you're so concerned about girls access to sport you'd be so focussed on this single issue?

I'm not trying to minimise it, but I think it's also not unreasonable to point out that you've highlighted a few individual cases in a sport played by millions.

You've asserted it's about physical strength, which isn't unfair, but it's also not unfair to point out that this isn't as black and white as you'd say either.

Even your own experience of being restricted from playing football is more about gender bias and access rather than trans rights, isn't it?

I'm also not saying I've got all of the answers - you seem to be the only one here convinced of that.

This is a Football and other Sports board. Why would I raise other issues?

If it isn't black and white there's no need for a women's category at all.
Which is exactly where this could lead - a Men's category and a Mixed category. The Women's category will be open to everyone.

duffer · May 23, 2024

San Francisco said:
Sad to read this. And also sad to see some users on here (one in particular) thinking it's acceptable to belittle you and your experiences just so they can have their momentary feeling of moral righteousness.
Crazy to think that allowing trans women in women's football teams is more important to them than women's safety. I'd like to see what the women in their lives would think if they read their comments.

If you think for a moment I'm suggesting that anyone's safety shouldn't be a consideration, then you're dead wrong. But it's nowhere near as black and white as is being suggested, imho.

And I discussed exactly this thread with my wife yesterday, to get her opinion on it. It's fair to say it differs from Oakey's. Women are not an homogenous block on this issue.

And who is actually belittling anyone here - have I missed something?

Otis · May 23, 2024

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
I know (personally, not anecdotally) of a trans-woman who plays for their university's women's football team, along with two other trans-women. That is not only conferring an unfair physical advantage on other women's teams but also denies three "cis-women" (i include the quotation marks because i find the term offensive to women) their places in the team.
And that doesn't even begin to address the issue of safe spaces for women to change/shower, etc - which ARE exempt from the provisions of EA 2010.

My missus hates the cis thing too. All her life she has been called a woman and now some people are "correcting" her and saying "no, you are a cis woman."

I am very much for women's rights being protected. Having that stance does not mean you are automatically anti trans.

The physical disadvantage is clearly a thing and many sports have tried to address that.

There is no easy answer, but women's rights are very important in all this.

wingy · May 23, 2024

rob9872 said:
Tbh whilst I'm well aware I'm a dinosaur it's almost as if people want to make things difficult for all concerned. Gay, straight, bi shouldn't matter. The way my tiny mind works is simple, as follows:

Some men like a bit of cock
Some men like a bit of cock and fanny
Some men only like the fanny

All are men, no matter what they say or how they dress.

The rest of it is a load of bollocks tbh, which is surprising as their rights seem mostly defended by cunts.

And some the other way, what about those?

Otis · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
- 64 years of experience living in a small female body
- I have been sexually assaulted several times by males, including twice inside Highfield road stadium when I was pinned against some railings.
- I have been punched by a male outside Highfield rd.
- I have been pushed and threatened several times in my life by aggressive males.

Most women have a tension if alone with a male they don't know and an instinct for when a male is present.
I trust my judgement but I would be more likely to leave than report.

So sorry to hear all this, Oakey.

Incredibly sad to hear.

duffer · May 23, 2024

oakey said:
This is a Football and other Sports board. Why would I raise other issues?

Err... because we're talking about access to football and other sports for women.

When it comes to that specifically, your biggest concern seems to be trans women - is that fair to say, or am I misrepresenting you?

oakey · May 23, 2024

duffer said:
Err... because we're talking about access to football and other sports for women.

When it comes to that specifically, your biggest concern seems to be trans women - is that fair to say, or am I misrepresenting you?

No that's not the case. I started the thread as I shared a news article which raised this particular issue.

fernandopartridge · May 23, 2024

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
OK. I'm learning here. Is there a definition in law of when a trans women stops being a man?

Is it the rather obvious post-op answer or is it simply the point that Holly plucks her eyebrows on the way, shaved her legs & then he was a she?

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic so I don't think there is necessarily an anatomical point. I think it's when the person has a gender reassignment certificate.

The point about all this though really as that male and female versions of sports refer to sex not gender.

oakey · May 23, 2024

Those other issues do concern me but they are all contingent on the women's category being respected

FA allows sex discrimination (3 Viewers)

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