Duggins

hill83

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2008
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Well if he can’t get the most basic facts, like Chris West’s name, right then surely we should ignore everything else he comes out with.

Not sure why people are upset at their identities being linked to their social media. Personally think it would be a lot better if everyone had to use their real name and was identifiable.
With an actual photo of themselves as their avatar. Including on here.
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2012
1,072
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He's right though. We have partial and one-sided PR being given by all sides.

It's a deluded tosser who believes any of the public pronouncements at face value. That doesn't make him a Wasps fan.

You cock.
It’s not the public pronouncements I believe, it’s the private emails. You knob.
 

MalcSB

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Mar 10, 2012
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You're taking a skewed, partial argument that's presented out of context.

You bellend.
The private emails aren’t skewed equivocal or partial . They haven’t been challenged so I think it safe to say they are genuine and therefore fact. So it is true to say that the council pursued wasps via acl in 2012. Demonstrated that the council played for time “negotiating” with Sisu when supposedly acting in good faith, to allow the deal with wasps to be developed, including a 250 year lease not offered to Sisu. Clear that the council via acl got ccfc back to the Ricoh under false pretences. Obvious that councillors lied by suggesting that a route to Ricoh ownership was possible but time was needed to build trust and then weeks later the deal with wasps was done. Build trust? What is your definition of dishonesty and underhand tactics? All that certainly meets and exceeds mine. You ball sack.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Apr 16, 2010
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Ok everyone appears to be merrily asserting facts as to what went on so here are some that have been provided in court as evidence in the various cases, appeals etc. All verifiable and taken from the timeline on the Trust site that details the sources. I have added in the emails that SISU assert are so "damning". There are other things that went on but i have tried to focus this on the stadium and actions directly related linking to the present PR statements from SISU & CCC

21 April 2011 Otium Entertainment formed

2012
6th March Meeting CCFC, SISU, CCC Charity to discuss “road map” to a deal for club to take some ownership of the stadium

9th March SISU rebuked for Chartered Surveyor acting for them approaching Yorkshire Bank without permission of ACL

12 March Gidney email regarding ACL interest in acquiring wasps. Contact made but not progressed at that time as far as we know.

Around March ARVO lends Otium £2m which reloans that sum to CCFCH

19th March ARVO Master Fund takes charge over CCFC Ltd and CCFC H Ltd assets to secure the money lent to Otium – separates all assets from other liabilities in both CCFC ltd & CCFCH Ltd . ARVO is a related company to SISU Capital Ltd

1st April Club ceases to pay rent under the original lease & Licence. Payments subsequently drawn from Escrow account. CCFC later agreed deal to make match day payments to ACL for use of Arena so they can complete their fixtures

19th April M Reeves notes to Council meeting – re common purpose. Meeting of CCC, AEHC, SISU. “status quo is unacceptable” regarding how Arena set up “the only viable pathway in the future is to link the football club to the operating environment and hence any relevant revenue flows of the Ricoh Arena” And “Council asked JVS if it will fund from May to July. JVS said only if do the YB deal. Doesn't need to be fully completed, but do need to know they'll do a deal. JVS noted it doesn't need permission from ACL to speak to YB, but is discussing out of courtesy."

T Fisher states that CCFC is balance sheet insolvent

28th April Meeting of CCFC, SISU, CCC, and Charity plus Seppala and ARVO. Seppala states “if no progress the club to file for insolvency” & “if you can’t do a stadium deal, SISU is finished funding the football club”. Discussion of next steps and a joint approach to Bank

May 2012 SISU enter talks with Higgs Charity regarding purchase of 50% interest in ACL. First Indicative terms sheet agreed but not taken further. (ITS are not legally binding) Council talking with football club & ACL

31st May 2012 Year end for SBS&L, Otium, CCFC H & CCFC Ltd. The CCFC H and CCFC Ltd accounts were never to be filed but these were the ones where assets couldnt be found and had changed ownership compared to previous audited financial statements, which didn't come out in to the open until March 2013.

19th June Indicative term sheet agreed SISU and Charity for sale of Charities 50% stake in ACL. 6 week exclusivity period. Offer not binding and subject to due diligence

Price Waterhouse Coopers valuation of ACL

30th June original anticipated completion date for share deal to be done SISU/Charity per Fisher. It wasn’t met

24th July Meeting SISU, CCC, ACL to discuss discharge of ACL debt

31st July Exclusivity period on Charity deal ends and is not extended by either side.

2nd August Heads of Terms sheet between CCC and SISU agreed and signed. Non binding. Includes settlement of debt proposals, AEG to run stadium, Lease 125 years, purchase of charity shares

7th August Charity inform SISU that exclusivity now over and as no progress on security the Charity wish to be open to offers from other parties. Justice Leggatt (Higgs Case) is to later conclude “I have come to the conclusion, however, that in circumstances where the transaction fell apart or fell away in August 2012, effectively because neither party wished to pursue the transaction contained in the term sheet,.”

10th to 14th August Email discussions of representatives of CCC and SISU to discuss restructuring of CCFC and ACL , the interim rent and buying out of Yorkshire Bank Loan

13th August ACL obtain Court Judgement on rent debt owed by CCFC. Undefended. The start of legal actions to recover unpaid debts after club withholds contractual rent.

15th August CCC report suggesting working on parallel plan to restructure ACL and repay bank loan without SISU

18th August email from clerk to Charity Trustees (as provided by SISU statement)

August Alternative approaches for ACL (without SISU) worked on and agreed. SISU notified of alternative plans

October Verbal offer of £2m by SISU for Charity shares rejected

7th December Commane email to C West ( - the one in the SISU statement)

10thDecember Meeting between SISU, ACL & CCC to discuss way forward where SISU/CCFC gained ownership interest

17th December Letter from Yorkshire Bank stating that they reject discounted offers to settle loan due to the refinancing

21st December Yorkshire bank accept offer by CCC of £14m to settle loan liability having previously rejected offers of £6m and £12m

2013
15th January CCC lent ACL £14.4m repayable over 40 years and took a charge over the Arena & ACL

13th March ACL petition courts to place CCFC ltd in to administration. Application never heard in court.

21st March ARVO as the secured lender places CCFC Ltd in to administration

17th June 2013 Otium acquires CCFC

8th July 2013 CCFC given permission to play in Northampton

13 November Letter from Seppala to Lucas. Seppala acknowledges that a deal might not be possible to do for CCC & ACL. States in circumstances have no option but to press on with new stadium development. Can not countenance anything other than ownership needing unencumbered freehold or unfettered very long lease. Also states she is being pressed by investors to take legal action to recover losses

13 November Letter from Lucas to Seppala states talks failed but willing to talk again if circumstances change to make it worthwhile. Warns at some point the Council need to move on if a deal is not possible

20th December Club owners present artist impressions pf potential new ground development

2014
9th January First meeting of stadium consultative group for season ticket holders only

26th February First open meeting of Stadium Consultative Group. Will later in year be suspended until new site revealed.

21st August CCFC agree deal to return to the Ricoh Arena

August The deal to return is thought to include an annual rent of around £100k, match day costs, but having a share in the concourse F&B. It is a two year deal with a two year extension at the option of ACL. All the exact details have never been disclosed

3rd October Seppala reported in media to have said that won’t interfere in Wasps move to buy the Ricoh Arena

7th October 2014 Council report re Wasps sale

8th October Wasps Holdings (Wasps RFC) acquired 50% of the shares in ACL from CCC for £2.77m
 
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Nick

Administrator
Feb 25, 2008
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Not a very good one, there's only financial implications for wasps if the council have done something wrong.

"Is a nonsense"

Gilbert needs to say "did wasps want both their and related parties (the council) to have any damages covered by ccfc / sisu / individuals related to either of those?"

Clear a few things up.

Funny the council now seem bothered about a meeting with the secretary of state, they weren't at the time.

The statement also seems to make out the council have a say over us playing in Birmingham, they haven't worded it very well.
 

Nick

Administrator
Feb 25, 2008
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This statement also contradicts wasps saying they put the EC stuff to one side.

Also, why are the council making statements about negotiations between 2 private companies. I thought they aren't involved and had no say?
 
Last edited:

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2008
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Not a very good one, there's only financial implications for wasps if the council have done something wrong.

"Is a nonsense"

Gilbert needs to say "did wasps want both their and related parties (the council) to have any damages covered by ccfc / sisu / individuals related to either of those?"

Clear a few things up.

Funny the council now seem bothered about a meeting with the secretary of state, they weren't at the time.

The statement also seems to make out the council have a say over us playing in Birmingham, they haven't worded it very well.
The only person asking those sort of questions is Les Reid and the council refuse to answer. Why aren't CWR and the Telegraph also asking? They make it far too easy for the council to avoid giving real answers.

I'd like Duggins to explain how there will be a serious financial implication for Wasps if the council have done nothing wrong?

They seem really rattled by the potential for an EC investigation. What are they do worried about?
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2011
25,261
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Ok everyone appears to be merrily asserting facts as to what went on so here are some that have been provided in court as evidence in the various cases, appeals etc. All verifiable and taken from the timeline on the Trust site that details the sources. I have added in the emails that SISU assert are so "damning". There are other things that went on but i have tried to focus this on the stadium and actions directly related linking to the present PR statements from SISU & CCC

21 April 2011 Otium Entertainment formed

2012
6th March Meeting CCFC, SISU, CCC Charity to discuss “road map” to a deal for club to take some ownership of the stadium

9th March SISU rebuked for Chartered Surveyor acting for them approaching Yorkshire Bank without permission of ACL

12 March Gidney email regarding ACL interest in acquiring wasps. Contact made but not progressed at that time as far we know.

Around March ARVO lends Otium £2m which reloans that sum to CCFCH

19th March ARVO Master Fund takes charge over CCFC Ltd and CCFC H Ltd assets – separates all assets from other liabilities. ARVO is a related company to SISU Capital Ltd

1st April Club ceases to pay rent under the original lease & Licence. Payments subsequently drawn from Escrow account. CCFC later agreed deal to make match day payments to ACL for use of Arena so they can complete their fixtures

19th April M Reeves notes to Council meeting – re common purpose. Meeting of CCC, AEHC, SISU. “status quo is unacceptable” regarding how Arena set up “the only viable pathway in the future is to link the football club to the operating environment and hence any relevant revenue flows of the Ricoh Arena” And “Council asked JVS if it will fund from May to July. JVS said only if do the YB deal. Doesn't need to be fully completed, but do need to know they'll do a deal. JVS noted it doesn't need permission from ACL to speak to YB, but is discussing out of courtesy."

T Fisher states that CCFC is balance sheet insolvent

28th April Meeting of CCFC, SISU, CCC, and Charity plus Seppala and ARVO. Seppala states “if no progress the club to file for insolvency” & “if you can’t do a stadium deal, SISU is finished funding the football club”. Discussion of next steps and a joint approach to Bank

May 2012 SISU enter talks with Higgs Charity regarding purchase of 50% interest in ACL. First Indicative terms sheet agreed but not taken further. (ITS are not legally binding) Council talking with football club & ACL

31st May 2012 Year end for SBS&L, Otium, CCFC H & CCFC Ltd. The CCFC H and CCFC Ltd accounts were never to be filed but these were the ones where assets couldnt be found and changed ownership, which didn't come out in to the open until March 2013.

19th June Indicative term sheet agreed SISU and Charity for sale of Charities 50% stake in ACL. 6 week exclusivity period. Offer not binding and subject to due diligence

Price Waterhouse Coopers valuation of ACL

30th June original anticipated completion date for share deal to be done SISU/Charity per Fisher. It wasn’t met

24th July Meeting SISU, CCC, ACL to discuss discharge of ACL debt

31st July Exclusivity period on Charity deal ends and is not extended by either side.

2nd August Heads of Terms sheet between CCC and SISU agreed and signed. Non binding. Includes settlement of debt proposals, AEG to run stadium, Lease 125 years, purchase of charity shares

7th August Charity inform SISU that exclusivity now over and as no progress on security the Charity wish to be open to offers from other parties. Justice Leggatt (Higgs Case) is to later conclude “I have come to the conclusion, however, that in circumstances where the transaction fell apart or fell away in August 2012, effectively because neither party wished to pursue the transaction contained in the term sheet,.”

10th to 14th August Email discussions of representatives of CCC and SISU to discuss restructuring of CCFC and ACL , the interim rent and buying out of Yorkshire Bank Loan

13th August ACL obtain Court Judgement on rent debt owed by CCFC. Undefended. The start of legal actions to recover unpaid debts after club withholds contractual rent.

15th August CCC report suggesting working on parallel plan to restructure ACL and repay bank loan without SISU

18th August email from clerk to Charity Trustees (as provided by SISU statement)

August Alternative approaches for ACL (without SISU) worked on and agreed. SISU notified of alternative plans

October Verbal offer of £2m by SISU for Charity shares rejected

7th December Commane email to C West ( - the one in the SISU statement)

10thDecember Meeting between SISU, ACL & CCC to discuss way forward where SISU/CCFC gained ownership interest

17th December Letter from Yorkshire Bank stating that they reject discounted offers to settle loan due to the refinancing

21st December Yorkshire bank accept offer by CCC of £14m to settle loan liability having previously rejected offers of £6m and £12m

2013
13th March ACL petition courts to place CCFC ltd in to administration. Application never heard in court.

21st March ARVO as the secured lender places CCFC Ltd in to administration

17th June 2013 Otium acquires CCFC

8th July 2013 CCFC given permission to play in Northampton

13 November Letter from Seppala to Lucas. Seppala acknowledges that a deal might not be possible to do for CCC & ACL. States in circumstances have no option but to press on with new stadium development. Can not countenance anything other than ownership needing unencumbered freehold or unfettered very long lease. Also states she is being pressed by investors to take legal action to recover losses

13 November Letter from Lucas to Seppala states talks failed but willing to talk again if circumstances change to make it worthwhile. Warns at some point the Council need to move on if a deal is not possible

20th December Club owners present artist impressions pf potential new ground development

2014
9th January First meeting of stadium consultative group for season ticket holders only

26th February First open meeting of Stadium Consultative Group. Will later in year be suspended until new site revealed.

21st August CCFC agree deal to return to the Ricoh Arena

August The deal to return is thought to include an annual rent of around £100k, match day costs, but having a share in the concourse F&B. It is a two year deal with a two year extension at the option of ACL. All the exact details have never been disclosed

3rd October Seppala reported in media to have said that won’t interfere in Wasps move to buy the Ricoh Arena

7th October 2014 Council report re Wasps sale

8th October Wasps Holdings (Wasps RFC) acquired 50% of the shares in ACL from CCC for £2.77m
Interesting but missing a lot of key information that isn't public, i.e. what was happening within ACL post the proposal in Gidney's email in March. It can't be written off that it was a message to nothing.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
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The only person asking those sort of questions is Les Reid and the council refuse to answer. Why aren't CWR and the Telegraph also asking? They make it far too easy for the council to avoid giving real answers.

I'd like Duggins to explain how there will be a serious financial implication for Wasps if the council have done nothing wrong?

They seem really rattled by the potential for an EC investigation. What are they do worried about?
And given that we're in times of austerity why wouldn't the council want to recoup millions of pounds if it is deemed they are owed it?
 
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chiefdave

Well-Known Member
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Also, why are the council making statements about negotiations between 2 private companies. I thought they aren't involved and had no say?
Why does that remind me of this?
If we always tell the truth we are unlikely to contradict ourselves; but if we resort to lies we are liable, when asked a question for a second time, to forget what our answer was on the first occasion.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
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Making himself look a bit desperate.
It's getting silly now.
Like I said before, if they all put the same amount of effort into finding a solution that they are in all this nonsense we'd be back at the Ricoh in no time.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2008
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It's getting silly now.
Like I said before, if they all put the same amount of effort into finding a solution that they are in all this nonsense we'd be back at the Ricoh in no time.
Thing that makes me laugh is they had won the PR 'war' as only one side seemed to know there was a war and bothered showing up. All they had to do was keep quiet and put out an occasional vague statement.

Instead they're stumbling around contradicting themselves, making statements that aren't backed up with evidence and trying to take SISU on over certain points they must know won't stand up to scrutiny.
 

Nick

Administrator
Feb 25, 2008
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Thing that makes me laugh is they had won the PR 'war' as only one side seemed to know there was a war and bothered showing up. All they had to do was keep quiet and put out an occasional vague statement.

Instead they're stumbling around contradicting themselves, making statements that aren't backed up with evidence and trying to take SISU on over certain points they must know won't stand up to scrutiny.
It's because they genuinely think they can just say "it was all sisu" and thats that.