Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Need some form of pr
Need some form of pr2 takes from that. Firstly is how little cut through the Lib Dem’s are having. You can’t help but feel that if they’d had a Paddy Ashdown or Charles Kennedy as leader they’d be giving the Tories a run for their money right now. Possibly doesn’t help I guess that the SNP are the third biggest party currently in Westminster so they’re barely involved in PMQ’s and have so few MP’s they’re largely anonymous in anything that gets coverage in parliament.
2nd take away is that the Tories are double fucked and actually they may have to take inevitable losses to Labour on the chin and fight Reform in marginals because fighting them as opposed to Labour might be their best chance to hold onto those seats and stopping them going to Labour by default of consequence of the votes the Tories lose to Reform.
One thing for sure is it can only get worse for the Tories the longer they leave it and if Sunak leaves it too late he might not even be PM come the election.
Good article here on landlordism, the elephant in the room neither of the main parties seems willing to address
The end of landlords: the surprisingly simple solution to the UK housing crisis
Mass-scale housebuilding isn’t necessary – there is already enough housing stock. But we need to learn the wisdom of the last century when it comes to landlordismwww.theguardian.com
In all seriousness if you’re genuinely a median voter then Labour is the obvious centrist choice this election. Even if you are a soft Tory most I know think the party needs a period out of power to sort itself post Brexit.
I don’t think the Tories will die, like I didn’t think Labour would under Corbyn. FPTP is a hell of a drug. But they either need to bring the one nation Tories back inside the tent, or I can see Reform and the Lib Dem’s eating their vote.
I read that yesterday.
As a plan it is superficially appealing but if private landlords are driven to sell up it will reduce the supply and drive rents up. There is evidence that the present government's increase in CGT is having that effect already.
I think it's a case of being careful what you wish for.
I read that yesterday.
As a plan it is superficially appealing but if private landlords are driven to sell up it will reduce the supply and drive rents up. There is evidence that the present government's increase in CGT is having that effect already.
I think it's a case of being careful what you wish for.
There is no doubt that Starmer is trying to position Labour as a centrist party. My concern, which I have expressed before, is that he always seeks to be popular with whatever electorate he is facing at the time.
He was much more to the left when seeking election as party leader and has moved to the right in anticipation of the general election. He has performed so many U turns that I don't think I can trust him.
You are describing the positional history of literally everyone ever elected as PM.
Although there is undoubtedly some truth in that I think Starmer has taken it to new heights with the number of U turns he has made and the total abandonment of his flagship green investment policy. I doubt that there is much left of the manifesto he stood on in the party leadership election.
Been very interesting to see how the friends of mine who have become private landlords and started collecting money for doing jack shit have changed their stance on this issue, having previously been renters themselves.Good article here on landlordism, the elephant in the room neither of the main parties seems willing to address
The end of landlords: the surprisingly simple solution to the UK housing crisis
Mass-scale housebuilding isn’t necessary – there is already enough housing stock. But we need to learn the wisdom of the last century when it comes to landlordismwww.theguardian.com
They'll just move up the chain, will be overtaken by super wealthy individual's who don't care about this tax or that?Been very interesting to see how the friends of mine who have become private landlords and started collecting money for doing jack shit have changed their stance on this issue, having previously been renters themselves.
Very much 'I'm alright Jack' types nowThey'll just move up the chain, will be overtaken by super wealthy individual's who don't care about this tax or that?
He didn’t stand on a manifesto for leadership. There is no manifesto. This is all supposition at this point.
Starmer is not at all unique as a party leader going for election. Johnson did the same, Cameron did the same, May did the same, Blair did the same. This is just standard attacking Labour for doing normal politics as somehow uniquely abhorrent.
Are there problems with party members who are significantly away from the median voter controlling the candidates? 100%. But its a bit weird to suddenly have an issue with it now for one specific candidate. You wouldn’t be able to vote for anyone anywhere other than joke parties with that as a bar.
You know perfectly well what I mean. I don't think it is unreasonable to refer to his pledges as his personal manifesto because that is what they are.
My issue is that he has done U-turns on most of them and - to a greater extent than most politicians - I don't think he is to be trusted. I have a couple of friends who are quite left wing and they feel cheated by him.
As for his Brexit policy of "I'll get a better deal, put it to the people and then campaign against it" that is just laughable.
I’ve come to the conclusion that governing is too hard for my socialist friends to consider so they’d much rather moan and blame and accuse others than have the reigns to make a meaningful changeOwen Jones doing Owen Jones things.
View attachment 34683
This is just fundamentally false. And it’s the conceit every supposed left wing voter who refuses to vote Labour creates.
I’ve seen actual human beings claiming Labour are fascist and “disaster capitalist” (whatever that’s supposed to mean in this context. It certainly doesn’t match anything Klein wrote about.). It’s overly online derangement syndrome.
This is a party that has yet to release its manifesto and even after “becoming Tory” (appealing to the median British voter in an election year) is promising:
- Nationalised energy
- Investment in safe and legal route and improved processing of asylum applications
- Free breakfast clubs
- End private school tax break
- Massive green energy investment
- Workers rights reforms
- House building
And this is a party following the Biden model of centrist in the streets and leftist in the sheets. And like Biden the left can’t see it.
Is it Jeremy’s Great Socialist Extravaganza? No. Does it look like it will actually happen? Yes. Which means Starmer will do infinitely more for the poor that Corbyn ever came close to.
You have decided that Starmer will definitely do things that he hasn’t even said he’ll do, because he has rowed back on things he said he would do. It’s just confirmation bias all the way down. Occams Razor is he’s a politician trying to get elected in the UK saying all the things people who get elected have to say. Yet no, this is 2024 and mental Twitter conspiracy takes are king and obviously Keir Starmer spent his whole life in progressive politics as a feint so he can really institute a mild Tory agenda. He stayed out of the much more successful Tory party where these ideas are both easy to get through and actually in government more often than not, because reasons.
It’s a take only taken by people who have never met a Labour Party politician other than through a clipped TikTok clip or an out of context screenshot on Twitter. The idea that even if they aren’t pushing for the People’s Republic of Britain are somehow not ideologically opposed to the Tories is just fucking insane. “Oh but shmmeee I met a bloke and he was quite right wing and a Labour councillor/MP/commentator” was he as right wing as the equivalent Tory for that area? Is he representative of the vast majority of the party that lets be honest is almost exclusively very left wing people?
I’m so fucking done with explaining basic electoral facts to fuckwits who claim to be into politics. If you don’t understand that the median voter thinks Labour spend too much and will let all the immigrants in, or you don’t understand how election messaging works (hint it is barely paid any attention to and needs to be big and obvious and repeated multiple times), or you would rather take the fever imaginings of “NeverLabourCorbz4LyfeStalinDidNothingWrong” than fucking look at the evidence of the last “right wing” Labour government and what it did for: child poverty, social mobility, wages, the economy, equality law, public services despite being run by someone significantly to the right of Starmer and in spite of their fuck ups. If you look at that and go “no actually I want the Tories to win” (because that’s what a non-Labour vote is in our system) then I have real trouble taking you seriously and so should everyone else.
Is Starmer overly cautious? Yes. Is that completely fucking understandable after 14 years of opposition? Also yes.
If you withhold your vote and make Labour lose/cut it close, and think that will make Labour move left and not right to gain more votes, please just fucking read one book about electoral politics. Or a Wikipedia article.
AbsofuckinlutelyOwen Jones doing Owen Jones things.
View attachment 34683
This is just fundamentally false. And it’s the conceit every supposed left wing voter who refuses to vote Labour creates.
I’ve seen actual human beings claiming Labour are fascist and “disaster capitalist” (whatever that’s supposed to mean in this context. It certainly doesn’t match anything Klein wrote about.). It’s overly online derangement syndrome.
This is a party that has yet to release its manifesto and even after “becoming Tory” (appealing to the median British voter in an election year) is promising:
- Nationalised energy
- Investment in safe and legal route and improved processing of asylum applications
- Free breakfast clubs
- End private school tax break
- Massive green energy investment
- Workers rights reforms
- House building
And this is a party following the Biden model of centrist in the streets and leftist in the sheets. And like Biden the left can’t see it.
Is it Jeremy’s Great Socialist Extravaganza? No. Does it look like it will actually happen? Yes. Which means Starmer will do infinitely more for the poor that Corbyn ever came close to.
You have decided that Starmer will definitely do things that he hasn’t even said he’ll do, because he has rowed back on things he said he would do. It’s just confirmation bias all the way down. Occams Razor is he’s a politician trying to get elected in the UK saying all the things people who get elected have to say. Yet no, this is 2024 and mental Twitter conspiracy takes are king and obviously Keir Starmer spent his whole life in progressive politics as a feint so he can really institute a mild Tory agenda. He stayed out of the much more successful Tory party where these ideas are both easy to get through and actually in government more often than not, because reasons.
It’s a take only taken by people who have never met a Labour Party politician other than through a clipped TikTok clip or an out of context screenshot on Twitter. The idea that even if they aren’t pushing for the People’s Republic of Britain are somehow not ideologically opposed to the Tories is just fucking insane. “Oh but shmmeee I met a bloke and he was quite right wing and a Labour councillor/MP/commentator” was he as right wing as the equivalent Tory for that area? Is he representative of the vast majority of the party that lets be honest is almost exclusively very left wing people?
I’m so fucking done with explaining basic electoral facts to fuckwits who claim to be into politics. If you don’t understand that the median voter thinks Labour spend too much and will let all the immigrants in, or you don’t understand how election messaging works (hint it is barely paid any attention to and needs to be big and obvious and repeated multiple times), or you would rather take the fever imaginings of “NeverLabourCorbz4LyfeStalinDidNothingWrong” than fucking look at the evidence of the last “right wing” Labour government and what it did for: child poverty, social mobility, wages, the economy, equality law, public services despite being run by someone significantly to the right of Starmer and in spite of their fuck ups. If you look at that and go “no actually I want the Tories to win” (because that’s what a non-Labour vote is in our system) then I have real trouble taking you seriously and so should everyone else.
Is Starmer overly cautious? Yes. Is that completely fucking understandable after 14 years of opposition? Also yes.
If you withhold your vote and make Labour lose/cut it close, and think that will make Labour move left and not right to gain more votes, please just fucking read one book about electoral politics. Or a Wikipedia article.
And yet trade unions continue to make meaningful change for the workforces who have them even despite the sustained efforts of multiple governments to kneecap their ability to do so.I’ve come to the conclusion that governing is too hard for my socialist friends to consider so they’d much rather moan and blame and accuse others than have the reigns to make a meaningful change
Yep as a lead negotiator I agreeAnd yet trade unions continue to make meaningful change for the workforces who have them even despite the sustained efforts of multiple governments to kneecap their ability to do so.
Owen Jones doing Owen Jones things.
View attachment 34683
This is just fundamentally false. And it’s the conceit every supposed left wing voter who refuses to vote Labour creates.
I’ve seen actual human beings claiming Labour are fascist and “disaster capitalist” (whatever that’s supposed to mean in this context. It certainly doesn’t match anything Klein wrote about.). It’s overly online derangement syndrome.
This is a party that has yet to release its manifesto and even after “becoming Tory” (appealing to the median British voter in an election year) is promising:
- Nationalised energy
- Investment in safe and legal route and improved processing of asylum applications
- Free breakfast clubs
- End private school tax break
- Massive green energy investment
- Workers rights reforms
- House building
And this is a party following the Biden model of centrist in the streets and leftist in the sheets. And like Biden the left can’t see it.
Is it Jeremy’s Great Socialist Extravaganza? No. Does it look like it will actually happen? Yes. Which means Starmer will do infinitely more for the poor that Corbyn ever came close to.
You have decided that Starmer will definitely do things that he hasn’t even said he’ll do, because he has rowed back on things he said he would do. It’s just confirmation bias all the way down. Occams Razor is he’s a politician trying to get elected in the UK saying all the things people who get elected have to say. Yet no, this is 2024 and mental Twitter conspiracy takes are king and obviously Keir Starmer spent his whole life in progressive politics as a feint so he can really institute a mild Tory agenda. He stayed out of the much more successful Tory party where these ideas are both easy to get through and actually in government more often than not, because reasons.
It’s a take only taken by people who have never met a Labour Party politician other than through a clipped TikTok clip or an out of context screenshot on Twitter. The idea that even if they aren’t pushing for the People’s Republic of Britain are somehow not ideologically opposed to the Tories is just fucking insane. “Oh but shmmeee I met a bloke and he was quite right wing and a Labour councillor/MP/commentator” was he as right wing as the equivalent Tory for that area? Is he representative of the vast majority of the party that lets be honest is almost exclusively very left wing people?
I’m so fucking done with explaining basic electoral facts to fuckwits who claim to be into politics. If you don’t understand that the median voter thinks Labour spend too much and will let all the immigrants in, or you don’t understand how election messaging works (hint it is barely paid any attention to and needs to be big and obvious and repeated multiple times), or you would rather take the fever imaginings of “NeverLabourCorbz4LyfeStalinDidNothingWrong” than fucking look at the evidence of the last “right wing” Labour government and what it did for: child poverty, social mobility, wages, the economy, equality law, public services despite being run by someone significantly to the right of Starmer and in spite of their fuck ups. If you look at that and go “no actually I want the Tories to win” (because that’s what a non-Labour vote is in our system) then I have real trouble taking you seriously and so should everyone else.
Is Starmer overly cautious? Yes. Is that completely fucking understandable after 14 years of opposition? Also yes.
If you withhold your vote and make Labour lose/cut it close, and think that will make Labour move left and not right to gain more votes, please just fucking read one book about electoral politics. Or a Wikipedia article.
My goodness, you certainly don't countenance any views other than your own do you? Not even those Labour supporters with more moderate opinions than yours.
You ought to go and live in a Socialist paradise where opposition to the government isn't allowed.
North Korea springs to mind
Sorry Pete but you’re talking shite here.I’ve come to the conclusion that governing is too hard for my socialist friends to consider so they’d much rather moan and blame and accuse others than have the reigns to make a meaningful change
Owen Jones doing Owen Jones things.
View attachment 34683
This is just fundamentally false. And it’s the conceit every supposed left wing voter who refuses to vote Labour creates.
I’ve seen actual human beings claiming Labour are fascist and “disaster capitalist” (whatever that’s supposed to mean in this context. It certainly doesn’t match anything Klein wrote about.). It’s overly online derangement syndrome.
This is a party that has yet to release its manifesto and even after “becoming Tory” (appealing to the median British voter in an election year) is promising:
- Nationalised energy
- Investment in safe and legal route and improved processing of asylum applications
- Free breakfast clubs
- End private school tax break
- Massive green energy investment
- Workers rights reforms
- House building
And this is a party following the Biden model of centrist in the streets and leftist in the sheets. And like Biden the left can’t see it.
Is it Jeremy’s Great Socialist Extravaganza? No. Does it look like it will actually happen? Yes. Which means Starmer will do infinitely more for the poor that Corbyn ever came close to.
You have decided that Starmer will definitely do things that he hasn’t even said he’ll do, because he has rowed back on things he said he would do. It’s just confirmation bias all the way down. Occams Razor is he’s a politician trying to get elected in the UK saying all the things people who get elected have to say. Yet no, this is 2024 and mental Twitter conspiracy takes are king and obviously Keir Starmer spent his whole life in progressive politics as a feint so he can really institute a mild Tory agenda. He stayed out of the much more successful Tory party where these ideas are both easy to get through and actually in government more often than not, because reasons.
It’s a take only taken by people who have never met a Labour Party politician other than through a clipped TikTok clip or an out of context screenshot on Twitter. The idea that even if they aren’t pushing for the People’s Republic of Britain are somehow not ideologically opposed to the Tories is just fucking insane. “Oh but shmmeee I met a bloke and he was quite right wing and a Labour councillor/MP/commentator” was he as right wing as the equivalent Tory for that area? Is he representative of the vast majority of the party that lets be honest is almost exclusively very left wing people?
I’m so fucking done with explaining basic electoral facts to fuckwits who claim to be into politics. If you don’t understand that the median voter thinks Labour spend too much and will let all the immigrants in, or you don’t understand how election messaging works (hint it is barely paid any attention to and needs to be big and obvious and repeated multiple times), or you would rather take the fever imaginings of “NeverLabourCorbz4LyfeStalinDidNothingWrong” than fucking look at the evidence of the last “right wing” Labour government and what it did for: child poverty, social mobility, wages, the economy, equality law, public services despite being run by someone significantly to the right of Starmer and in spite of their fuck ups. If you look at that and go “no actually I want the Tories to win” (because that’s what a non-Labour vote is in our system) then I have real trouble taking you seriously and so should everyone else.
Is Starmer overly cautious? Yes. Is that completely fucking understandable after 14 years of opposition? Also yes.
If you withhold your vote and make Labour lose/cut it close, and think that will make Labour move left and not right to gain more votes, please just fucking read one book about electoral politics. Or a Wikipedia article.
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I’ve come to the conclusion that governing is too hard for my socialist friends to consider so they’d much rather moan and blame and accuse others than have the reigns to make a meaningful change
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