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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (21 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,461
Brighton Sky Blue said:
If I were in their shoes I’d smell blood and try to nab a few seats. Tories that unpopular they might manage it.
Click to expand...

There is no chance in reality

There is I suppose they split the vote and the split the Conservative Party in half. I am surprised there have been no defections. Farage is sniffing around and fancies - potentially - to be leader
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,462
wingy said:
British gas profits 900%up from £72m to £751m, absolutely no need get the wealth tax out or get it back in state control.
Click to expand...
It's what really pisses me off about the energy price cap. They keep on claiming they need to put it up because their unit costs are going up, then they make huge profits like this. If your unit price was going up then your profitability would be roughly stable.

As for the bullshit about every type of energy being linked into the price of one, fuck knows who thought that was a bright idea.

And imagine what we could do with those profits if the thing hadn't been privatised?
 
Reactions: Brighton Sky Blue and wingy
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,463
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
It's what really pisses me off about the energy price cap. They keep on claiming they need to put it up because their unit costs are going up, then they make huge profits like this. If your unit price was going up then your profitability would be roughly stable.

As for the bullshit about every type of energy being linked into the price of one, fuck knows who thought that was a bright idea.

And imagine what we could do with those profits if the thing hadn't been privatised?
Click to expand...
They just use a random number generator and go ‘guess that’s what you owe us and we’ll send thugs round your house if you can’t afford it’. Not much better than thieves
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,464
 
Reactions: nicksar and Sky Blue Pete

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,465
Brighton Sky Blue said:
They just use a random number generator and go ‘guess that’s what you owe us and we’ll send thugs round your house if you can’t afford it’. Not much better than thieves
Click to expand...
Yep. Ludicrous.

This was a number of years ago, but they did it with my nan. Starting wanting monthly DD's that were almost equivalent to six months actual usage. Ended up hundreds of pounds in credit.

We tried to get them to change it and in the end my mum, who worked in a bank, just went and changed the amount she was paying them to a SO. Two months later, big red letter bill saying she owed them a few hundred pounds and would cut her off if it wasn't paid in 7 days. She had hundreds of pounds in credit on her account! As you can imagine she got quite anxious and upset about this and she had heart problems as it was. We were not happy and I eventually ended up feeling sorry for the person on the phone because they got a right earful, when it wasn't really their fault.
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,466
skybluetony176 said:
Click to expand...
It's not really a recession according to the pundits, support.
GDP per capita is down consecutively for seven quarters,he'll let's keep going with interest hikes while we give away tax monies, especially to business circles.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,467
The recession is planned, the interest rate rises are having the desired effect. I'm not that sure why the independent BOE is / was much lauded. Livelihoods put in the hands of an unelected panel of technocrats.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,468
fernandopartridge said:
The recession is planned, the interest rate rises are having the desired effect. I'm not that sure why the independent BOE is / was much lauded. Livelihoods put in the hands of an unelected panel of technocrats.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Transferring tax take to private entity?
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,469
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
It's what really pisses me off about the energy price cap. They keep on claiming they need to put it up because their unit costs are going up, then they make huge profits like this. If your unit price was going up then your profitability would be roughly stable.

As for the bullshit about every type of energy being linked into the price of one, fuck knows who thought that was a bright idea.

And imagine what we could do with those profits if the thing hadn't been privatised?
Click to expand...

Ofgen have been fuckin useless. I might be wrong but I think the argument of late was that the cap was left higher to recompense the poor energy companies for making less during the peak unit cost period ie sharing the pain. As I mentioned at the start of the energy crisis though there is a difference between energy producers and energy retailers though. Whats been scandalous is that the standing charges have been left ridiculously high to cover cost of busy energy providers(retailers)…how’s that incentivising lower usage ?!

Whole things a joke but one bit of good news is the April cap should drop around 15% I think

ps we’re all paying extra green taxes on energy yet where’s the benefit to us all when as a country we’re generating so much power from renewables…can someone explain this to me ?!
 
Last edited: Feb 18, 2024

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,470
CCFCSteve said:
Ofgen have been fuckin useless. I might be wrong but I think the argument of late was that the cap was left higher to recompense the poor energy companies for making less during the peak unit cost period ie sharing the pain. As I mentioned at the start of the energy crisis though there is a difference between energy producers and energy retailers though. Whats been scandalous is that the standing charges have been left ridiculously high to cover cost of busy energy providers(retailers)…how’s that incentivising lower usage ?!

Whole things a joke but one bit of good news is the April cap should drop around 15% I think

ps we’re all paying extra green taxes on energy yet where’s the benefit to us all when as a country we’re generating so much power from renewables…can someone explain this to me ?!
Click to expand...

We need to decouple energy pricing from the most expensive form. Let gas die from competition from cheaper energy sources.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,471
shmmeee said:
We need to decouple energy pricing from the most expensive form. Let gas die from competition from cheaper energy sources.
Click to expand...

Agree. Its ridiculous how the electricity price is calculated. So we pay green energy tax to subsidise green energy investment (which im
100% behind in theory) but then still get charged cost of producing on ‘gas basis’ which is the most expensive and only generates about a third of our electricity

I mean WTAF !

I’m sure there was talk of changing methodology but all gone quiet since. Surely an easy win for Labour to suggest they’ll introduce this change if/when elected


 
Reactions: shmmeee
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,472
fernandopartridge said:
The recession is planned, the interest rate rises are having the desired effect. I'm not that sure why the independent BOE is / was much lauded. Livelihoods put in the hands of an unelected panel of technocrats.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
You’d prefer a government-controlled central bank?
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,473
SBT said:
You’d prefer a government-controlled central bank?
Click to expand...
It's only been independent since 1997 and since then we've had a credit boom and crash and the longest continuous fall in living standards. What's the benefit of its independence?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: Brighton Sky Blue and Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,474
SBT said:
You’d prefer a government-controlled central bank?
Click to expand...

Strangely given my political leanings I personally would
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,475
fernandopartridge said:
It's only been independent since 1997 and since then we've had a credit boom and crash and the longest continuous fall in living standards. What's the benefit of its independence?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
It acts as a brake to counteract rash and/or irresponsible government actions - what does a Truss-appointed BoE Governor do when the pension funds sector is about to keel over as a result of Truss' own budget? Does the UK economy manage the post-2016 referendum turbulence as well if Carney has to also be replaced by a Brexiteer as soon as Cameron quits?

It's in step with the world's other major central banks, which are all also indepedent, and has made co-operation between those central banks easy during the gigantic crises we've seen since 1997 (GFC, Covid)

It has credibility in the eyes of international investors, at a time when the credibility of our politicians seems to be in decline

It means monetary policy is decided with more than just the next election cycle in mind, and allows unpopular but necessary decisions to be taken with less political pressure
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,476
SBT said:
It acts as a brake to counteract rash and/or irresponsible government actions - what does a Truss-appointed BoE Governor do when the pension funds sector is about to keel over as a result of Truss' own budget? Does the UK economy manage the post-2016 referendum turbulence as well if Carney has to also be replaced by a Brexiteer as soon as Cameron quits?

It's in step with the world's other major central banks, which are all also indepedent, and has made co-operation between those central banks easy during the gigantic crises we've seen since 1997 (GFC, Covid)

It has credibility in the eyes of international investors, at a time when the credibility of our politicians seems to be in decline

It means monetary policy is decided with more than just the next election cycle in mind, and allows unpopular but necessary decisions to be taken with less political pressure
Click to expand...

The decisions it makes have obvious societal impact which to me means that it's something that should have some form of accountability in my opinion.

The necessary decision to create a recession to counteract inflation caused by non monetary policy reasons.



Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 
Reactions: duffer
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 18, 2024
  • #33,477
fernandopartridge said:
The decisions it makes have obvious societal impact which to me means that it's something that should have some form of accountability in my opinion.

The necessary decision to create a recession to counteract inflation caused by non monetary policy reasons.



Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Well it’s not like they’re totally unaccountable - the government could decide tomorrow to replace the Governor if it wanted to. And there are other ways to keep public officials accountable beyond having the public vote them in, or making them all government wards.

In the case of the BoE, removing their independence will just make for less predictable, more populist monetary policy. That is rarely a formula for greater financial stability.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,478
SBT said:
Well it’s not like they’re totally unaccountable - the government could decide tomorrow to replace the Governor if it wanted to. And there are other ways to keep public officials accountable beyond having the public vote them in, or making them all government wards.

In the case of the BoE, removing their independence will just make for less predictable, more populist monetary policy. That is rarely a formula for greater financial stability.
Click to expand...
They've not met their inflation target for over 2 years mate - what's happened?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,479
fernandopartridge said:
They've not met their inflation target for over 2 years mate - what's happened?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

QE, Ukrainian war and post pandemic squeeze.

I agree though that they haven’t been very good and basically were asleep at the wheel prior to/at the early stages of inflation increasing which exacerbated the problem. They should’ve stopped QE and increased interest rates earlier, however, do I think a government controlled BoE/rate setter would’ve done better…looking at recent form, doubt it.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,480
I'd be all for BoE controlled by government until I think of Truss and Kwarteng wielding that power.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer, skybluetony176 and CCFCSteve
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,481
fernandopartridge said:
They've not met their inflation target for over 2 years mate - what's happened?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
A series of very big and largely unprecedented economic shocks?

I’m not saying that central bank independence guarantees good performance but it’s an important principle of monetary policy nevertheless.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,482
Deleted member 5849 said:
I'd be all for BoE controlled by government until I think of Truss and Kwarteng wielding that power.
Click to expand...

The second part is a separate issue though, isn't it? Also, the pair of them were out of their positions within weeks.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,483
CCFCSteve said:
QE, Ukrainian war and post pandemic squeeze.

I agree though that they haven’t been very good and basically were asleep at the wheel prior to/at the early stages of inflation increasing which exacerbated the problem. They should’ve stopped QE and increased interest rates earlier, however, do I think a government controlled BoE/rate setter would’ve done better…looking at recent form, doubt it.
Click to expand...
You forgot Brexit

5% of our GDP year in year out apparently.
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,484
fernandopartridge said:
The second part is a separate issue though, isn't it? Also, the pair of them were out of their positions within weeks.
Click to expand...
Not really, as that's the consequence. And they were out within weeks, but the damage they caused was moderated by an independent bank, as opposed to them completely crashing us to utter doom.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,485
Deleted member 5849 said:
Not really, as that's the consequence. And they were out within weeks, but the damage they caused was moderated by an independent bank, as opposed to them completely crashing us to utter doom.
Click to expand...

I assume we had direct control until 1997?
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,486
Just a vehicle to get back the loss of wealth to mega rich!
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,487
skybluetony176 said:
You forgot Brexit

5% of our GDP year in year out apparently.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, silly me

There’s no doubt that it would’ve had a negative impact on inflation but compared to the other examples relatively minor

ps the 5% was an estimate in total since brexit not year in year out. Still significant but difficult to be accurate when we’ve had the pandemic and Ukraine war since which has impacted different countries, at different times in different ways.
 
Last edited: Feb 19, 2024

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,488
CCFCSteve said:
Oh yeah, silly me

There’s no doubt that it would’ve had a negative impact on inflation but compared to the other examples relatively minor
Click to expand...
5% year on year off growth is hardly minor. Especially when it comes to servicing debt and therefore investment in infrastructure and services. Under the current fiscal rules that is. We failed to grow the economy due to austerity and now we’ve taken another political decision to not just cut growth but actively shrink it.
 
Reactions: duffer
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,489
skybluetony176 said:
5% year on year off growth is hardly minor. Especially when it comes to servicing debt and therefore investment in infrastructure and services. Under the current fiscal rules that is. We failed to grow the economy due to austerity and now we’ve taken another political decision to not just cut growth but actively shrink it.
Click to expand...

Not sure if we’re talking crossed purposes but if you’re talking about Goldman sachs report that’s not 5% year on year (it’s in total) and I was talking about brexits impact on inflation being minor compared to other examples - we’re talking about inflation and interest rates not Brexit
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,490
Deleted member 5849 said:
I'd be all for BoE controlled by government until I think of Truss and Kwarteng wielding that power.
Click to expand...
It’s only by historical accident that Truss and Kwarteng didn’t get to hand-pick the BoE governor, and they had the power to remove him while they were in office anyway. The Bank’s leadership is appointed by the government and its mandate decided by the government - there’s only so much less independent you can make it!
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,491
CCFCSteve said:
Agree. Its ridiculous how the electricity price is calculated. So we pay green energy tax to subsidise green energy investment (which im
100% behind in theory) but then still get charged cost of producing on ‘gas basis’ which is the most expensive and only generates about a third of our electricity

I mean WTAF !

I’m sure there was talk of changing methodology but all gone quiet since. Surely an easy win for Labour to suggest they’ll introduce this change if/when elected
Click to expand...

We shouldn’t need green levies. If I were a cynic I’d say they’re introduced to give ammo to the right. Insulation and renewables are economically viable in their own right. If you want to fund green infrastructure and don’t want to borrow for some mental reason, just bring a carbon tax in and price the stuff we actually want to stop.
 
Reactions: Nuskyblue and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,492
Doesn’t matter what we do for growth at this point. We just desperately need it. Personally I’d do green infra, EU ties, house building, planning reform and work to improve the VC landscape in the UK to help startups as well as legalising weed. But literally anything would do as long as it’s not another decade of bickering.
 
Reactions: skybluetony176 and CCFCSteve

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,493
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
We've discussed this before. Growth is, by its very nature, unsustainable and a fools errand.. All the time needing ever higher populations, land and resources that are finite being used faster and faster. Just a recipe for war over territory and resources until it implodes spectacularly.

It's not that there isn't enough money, it's that those with it all refuse to let anyone else have any. If we have growth it still all just goes to those that have loads and the poor are still in need. Look at big cities that have massive growth in populations and economy. A handful live in fabulous luxury due to it but far more suffer abject poverty and social problems. So what's the suggestion - more growth - which just entrenches the problems! What's that adage about doing the same thing and expecting different results?

Where economic policy needs to focus is distribution, not growth. I'm not naive enough to think that it'd appeal to voters - I know it wouldn't - but is more likely to get results.
Click to expand...

Good luck telling people their living standards are going to fall. Growth is not at all unsustainable by its nature. That’s a completely ahistorical take. You also don’t need more people for growth, because it’s per capita that matters.

Overall though, I don’t really want to live in a country preserved in aspic for older generations because we refuse to build anything. I like innovation. I like new stuff. It leads to better lives than the old stuff.
 
S

SBT

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,494
shmmeee said:
Doesn’t matter what we do for growth at this point. We just desperately need it.
Click to expand...
Alright, Kwasi.
 
Reactions: chiefdave

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Feb 19, 2024
  • #33,495
SBT said:
Alright, Kwasi.
Click to expand...

Point is the problem with the country is constant talking shops and fuck all ever happening. Like house building. Like infrastructure. Like climate change. I’m done listening to constant hypotheticals about how we shouldn’t do anything. Move fast and break things.

Kwarteng confused growth with giving his mates a tax break of course.
 
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