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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (28 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 4, 2023
  • #32,306
shmmeee said:
Given a magical fantasy land where the electorate consists entirely of you, Ian and CvD then sure.

Given the real world where it’s Labour or Tories, I’ll choose Labour every time.

Why aren’t you angry with the left for fucking up their big change like I am? Why aren’t you frustrated at the glaring lack of talent in the SCG? Why do you keep giving these fucking awful politicians a free pass and blaming people who actually try to get elected instead of whining that everything isn’t fair?

You’re not fucking lefties. You’re in it for the aesthetic and the ability to grumpily sit at the side and say everything is shit. You have no wish for left wing politics to get into power because that might mean having to sully your oh so precious principles. Principles you never want tested in case you find they come up short outside of protest lines and academia.
Click to expand...
We’ve had those things called trade unions securing better pay and terms for their members in the last few years despite the Labour Party not wanting to know and the Tories trying to outlaw strikes. That is the ‘hard left’ exercising some power for the better.
 
Reactions: shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 4, 2023
  • #32,307
Brighton Sky Blue said:
We’ve had those things called trade unions securing better pay and terms for their members in the last few years despite the Labour Party not wanting to know and the Tories trying to outlaw strikes. That is the ‘hard left’ exercising some power for the better.
Click to expand...

Oh. My mistake. I’ll cast a vote for Mick Lynch when I get to the polling booth.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 4, 2023
  • #32,308
shmmeee said:
Oh. My mistake. I’ll cast a vote for Mick Lynch when I get to the polling booth.
Click to expand...
Interesting. How would the party get on without its union funding anyway?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 4, 2023
  • #32,309
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Interesting. How would the party get on without its union funding anyway?
Click to expand...

Dunno. Would probably have to court more business.

Who would you have from the SCG over Starmer? And remember John McDonnell comes with almost as much baggage as Jezza.

You could have any of these political big beasts: Socialist Campaign Group - Wikipedia

Stop running away from the job of a political party because it makes you feel icky. How are you going to get one of these fine MPs elected as PM? Catch: you can’t blame a conspiracy against you in your answer.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 4, 2023
  • #32,310
shmmeee said:
Dunno. Would probably have to court more business.

Who would you have from the SCG over Starmer? And remember John McDonnell comes with almost as much baggage as Jezza.

You could have any of these political big beasts: Socialist Campaign Group - Wikipedia

Stop running away from the job of a political party because it makes you feel icky. How are you going to get one of these fine MPs elected as PM? Catch: you can’t blame a conspiracy against you in your answer.
Click to expand...
Clive Lewis.
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 4, 2023
  • #32,311
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Interesting. How would the party get on without its union funding anyway?
Click to expand...
Should be central funding
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 4, 2023
  • #32,312
shmmeee said:
Dunno. Would probably have to court more business.

Who would you have from the SCG over Starmer? And remember John McDonnell comes with almost as much baggage as Jezza.

You could have any of these political big beasts: Socialist Campaign Group - Wikipedia

Stop running away from the job of a political party because it makes you feel icky. How are you going to get one of these fine MPs elected as PM? Catch: you can’t blame a conspiracy against you in your answer.
Click to expand...
Why do you constantly rattle on about individuals? I don't care about the SCG or any individual politician.

I don't know why you're so uptight about anybody criticising Starmer, he's going to piss the election so what does it matter?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 4, 2023
  • #32,313
fernandopartridge said:
Why do you constantly rattle on about individuals? I don't care about the SCG or any individual politician.

I don't know why you're so uptight about anybody criticising Starmer, he's going to piss the election so what does it matter?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Because those are your choices. That’s the best the left has managed to get elected. And until that changes you can’t bitch that it’s not in charge of the party FFS.

I’m frustrated with people who claim to want left wing policy enacted by government but are intent on never actually trying to make it happen because what they actually want is to feel oh so special compared to the people actually cracking on and trying to win elections.
 
Reactions: clint van damme

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 4, 2023
  • #32,314
shmmeee said:
Because those are your choices. That’s the best the left has managed to get elected. And until that changes you can’t bitch that it’s not in charge of the party FFS.

I’m frustrated with people who claim to want left wing policy enacted by government but are intent on never actually trying to make it happen because what they actually want is to feel oh so special compared to the people actually cracking on and trying to win elections.
Click to expand...

I'm not a labour member and never have been, I'm not really interested in the factions. I just want a Labour government that has a bit more hope to offer than this drivel:

Instead, Starmer said, significant barriers to growth could be tackled without extra spending, such as changes to the planning system and more efficient public services
Click to expand...

What is left wing about this? This is essentially what the Cameron Osborne government promised in 2010.

Housing legacy left by Cameron and Osborne is the strongest for a generation

The Housing & Finance Institution has said David Cameron and George Osborne left one of the strongest housing legacies of any government for a generation…
www.pbctoday.co.uk

I get that it isn't generally electorally expedient to promise to spend spend spend. However, if you're not going to even commit to reversing the departmental cuts promised by Jeremy Hunt, what are you going to do?

We're probably at different stages here, you're pinning your hopes on Starmer and co as agents for people with your beliefs because they're standing for Labour, the party you and your family are heavily invested in. I'm just reading what they actually say and reacting to that.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk[/Quote]
 
Reactions: Brighton Sky Blue

dutchman

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 4, 2023
  • #32,315

Leaked email reveals Keir Starmer vetoed Thatcher criticism

Exclusive: As the Labour leader faces a backlash over his praise for the former Tory prime minister, a leaked email shows he stopped former frontbencher Sam Tarry from attacking her ‘failed’ transport policies in 2021
www.independent.co.uk

Sir Keir Starmer’s top team prevented a shadow minister from criticising Margaret Thatcher, The Independent can reveal.

As the Labour leader faces a backlash for his praise of the former Tory prime minister, a leaked email shows he stopped Sam Tarry, then the party’s shadow minister for transport, from attacking her failed policies in 2021.

Left-winger Mr Tarry had wanted to criticise her 1985 Transport Act, saying it “failed to deliver lower fares and better services across Greater Manchester”.

But when the comments were sent to Sir Keir’s office for approval, one of his top aides insisted the reference to Thatcher be taken out.

The leaked email said: “Can we take out the Thatcher stuff and instead criticise the current government?”
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,316
dutchman said:

Leaked email reveals Keir Starmer vetoed Thatcher criticism

Exclusive: As the Labour leader faces a backlash over his praise for the former Tory prime minister, a leaked email shows he stopped former frontbencher Sam Tarry from attacking her ‘failed’ transport policies in 2021
www.independent.co.uk

Sir Keir Starmer’s top team prevented a shadow minister from criticising Margaret Thatcher, The Independent can reveal.

As the Labour leader faces a backlash for his praise of the former Tory prime minister, a leaked email shows he stopped Sam Tarry, then the party’s shadow minister for transport, from attacking her failed policies in 2021.

Left-winger Mr Tarry had wanted to criticise her 1985 Transport Act, saying it “failed to deliver lower fares and better services across Greater Manchester”.

But when the comments were sent to Sir Keir’s office for approval, one of his top aides insisted the reference to Thatcher be taken out.

The leaked email said: “Can we take out the Thatcher stuff and instead criticise the current government?”
Click to expand...

Nice to see Keith's got a policy he's actually sticking to for once!
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,317
Sunak had his first defeat in the commons yesterday.

Ministers lose infected blood vote after Tory MPs revolt

MPs were voting on a plan to set up a compensation scheme for infected blood scandal victims.
www.bbc.co.uk

I wonder if we’ll see more of this as a lot are standing down at the next GE and plenty more won’t be expecting to win? Still, on a positive it should have passed given the importance of the situation and how long it’s been going on for. Give it a few months and Sunak will be trying to take credit for it.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,318
Also on this immigration clampdown surely the draw for medical professionals coming to the UK was largely because you could bring your dependants. Where’s the incentive now? Sounds like a trap for the next government who will have to reverse it for the benefit of the NHS.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,319
skybluetony176 said:
Also on this immigration clampdown surely the draw for medical professionals coming to the UK was largely because you could bring your dependants. Where’s the incentive now? Sounds like a trap for the next government who will have to reverse it for the benefit of the NHS.
Click to expand...

There was a lot in what Cleverley said yesterday that wasn't explained.
There's no way the new rules won't affect NHS recruitment when we're already woefully short, is there going to be a drive to train and recruit from the current population?

Same with social care. If we have to recruit from the indigenous population wages are going to go up and thus costs, will they be passed on to the elderly given limits have been put on how much they can take off people?

Overseas students subsidise UK students, if overseas numbers now drop, which they're predicted to, will fees go up?

Would be good to hear if they have a plan for all this.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,320
clint van damme said:
There was a lot in what Cleverley said yesterday that wasn't explained.
There's no way the new rules won't affect NHS recruitment when we're already woefully short, is there going to be a drive to train and recruit from the current population?

Same with social care. If we have to recruit from the indigenous population wages are going to go up and thus costs, will they be passed on to the elderly given limits have been put on how much they can take off people?

Overseas students subsidise UK students, if overseas numbers now drop, which they're predicted to, will fees go up?

Would be good to hear if they have a plan for all this.
Click to expand...
Pretty much what Yvette Cooper was saying in response. She was also pointing out that employers were allowed to employ for example an engineer on 20% lower wages as an immigrant compared to a British engineer which is also linked to a drop off in training British engineers. Labour’s plan is apparently to drop the discount for foreign workers and invest in training in fields like engineering to address the labour shortages.
 
Reactions: clint van damme

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,321
skybluetony176 said:
Pretty much what Yvette Cooper was saying in response. She was also pointing out that employers were allowed to employ for example an engineer on 20% lower wages as an immigrant compared to a British engineer which is also linked to a drop off in training British engineers. Labour’s plan is apparently to drop the discount for foreign workers and invest in training in fields like engineering to address the labour shortages.
Click to expand...

We are going to have to have a root and branch reform of the education system if we want British engineers. The subject is seen as something to put shitty boys on in my experience and not a respected profession like it is in other countries.

We need to start moving high performing students away from finance and towards Maths and Engineering. But wages are so low compared to anywhere else, we’ll likely be training them to leave.

We really need a proper industrial strategy.
 
Reactions: AOM, Sky_Blue_Dreamer, fernandopartridge and 3 others

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,322
shmmeee said:
We are going to have to have a root and branch reform of the education system if we want British engineers. The subject is seen as something to put shitty boys on in my experience and not a respected profession like it is in other countries.

We need to start moving high performing students away from finance and towards Maths and Engineering. But wages are so low compared to anywhere else, we’ll likely be training them to leave.

We really need a proper industrial strategy.
Click to expand...

I know you'll disagree with my funding idea but I said this is where we should have directed the HS2 money.

A normal functioning country that's world's 6th biggest economy would be financing both.
 
Reactions: Brighton Sky Blue

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,323
clint van damme said:
I know you'll disagree with my funding idea but I said this is where we should have directed the HS2 money.

A normal functioning country that's world's 6th biggest economy would be financing both.
Click to expand...

We need both. Productivity is in the toilet because all our infrastructure is shite whether it’s human or not.

I honestly think a lot of it is down to the weird class system in this country that values law and finance and PPE and not Maths and Physics and Engineering.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,324
shmmeee said:
We need both. Productivity is in the toilet because all our infrastructure is shite whether it’s human or not.

I honestly think a lot of it is down to the weird class system in this country that values law and finance and PPE and not Maths and Physics and Engineering.
Click to expand...

It's also down to the remuneration finance, particularly the city, can offer someone with a head for maths, Gary Stevenson has spoken about this.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,325
clint van damme said:
It's also down to the remuneration finance, particularly the city, can offer someone with a head for maths, Gary Stevenson has spoken about this.
Click to expand...

Thing is when you’re bright you’re looking at the world market as well. I could triple my salary in the states and probably by 50% in almost any other developed nation.

Finance pays, but tech and engineering doesn’t. Honestly not sure why that is. In almost all skilled professions we’re known as a low wage country.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,326
shmmeee said:
Thing is when you’re bright you’re looking at the world market as well. I could triple my salary in the states and probably by 50% in almost any other developed nation.

Finance pays, but tech and engineering doesn’t. Honestly not sure why that is. In almost all skilled professions we’re known as a low wage country.
Click to expand...

Tragic isn't it?
 
Reactions: shmmeee

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,327
shmmeee said:
We are going to have to have a root and branch reform of the education system if we want British engineers. The subject is seen as something to put shitty boys on in my experience and not a respected profession like it is in other countries.

We need to start moving high performing students away from finance and towards Maths and Engineering. But wages are so low compared to anywhere else, we’ll likely be training them to leave.

We really need a proper industrial strategy.
Click to expand...
This is the kind of thing I want to see Labour promoting. It’s a multi faceted solution that will help with immigration and the workforce skills gap to just begin with 2 benefits -
This is what progressive should look like.

Instead we see Shadow ministers coming out talking about the Rwanda scheme being not value for money rather than outright objection to it, or offering a meaningful alternative.

Surely that must concern you too?
 
Reactions: shmmeee
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,328
shmmeee said:
We are going to have to have a root and branch reform of the education system if we want British engineers. The subject is seen as something to put shitty boys on in my experience and not a respected profession like it is in other countries.

We need to start moving high performing students away from finance and towards Maths and Engineering. But wages are so low compared to anywhere else, we’ll likely be training them to leave.

We really need a proper industrial strategy.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Pretty much what I’ve been saying for the past few years. Incentivise those in certain skill shortage areas and likely requirements in future. Bursaries, zero/reduced tuition or vocational course fees etc in certain sectors would be the first stage. Tie this assistance into working in the country for X years post completion

Second, as you say, is trying to better align and/or improve the salaries where there’s shortages, especially if that’s something like social care which government can directly influence. It can indirectly influence something like tech with incentives for businesses etc although more difficult to change wages

I know it’s just repeating myself but as a country we’ve got addicted to cheaper imported labour. It was refreshing to see the long term NHS staff plan, about time ! but ones been needed for the country as a whole for donkeys years…or at the very least since Brexit

ps not sure about the recent changes to immigration policy. Some of the changes feel like they’re likely to cause more issues though. Devils in the details I guess.
 
Last edited: Dec 5, 2023
Reactions: shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,329
Ian1779 said:
This is the kind of thing I want to see Labour promoting. It’s a multi faceted solution that will help with immigration and the workforce skills gap to just begin with 2 benefits -
This is what progressive should look like.

Instead we see Shadow ministers coming out talking about the Rwanda scheme being not value for money rather than outright objection to it, or offering a meaningful alternative.

Surely that must concern you too?
Click to expand...

Im not really bothered by pre election rhetoric designed to get Tory votes. I’ll judge him on the manifesto.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,330
Oh, look what’s at the top of my Twitter feed…

 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,331
CCFCSteve said:
Agreed. Pretty much what I’ve been saying for the past few years. Incentivise those in certain skill shortage areas and likely requirements in future. Bursaries, zero/reduced tuition or vocational course fees etc in certain sectors would be the first stage. Tie this assistance into working in the country for X years post completion

Second, as you say, is trying to better align and/or improve the salaries where there’s shortages, especially if that’s something like social care which government can directly influence. It can indirectly influence something like tech with incentives for businesses etc although more difficult to change wages

I know it’s just repeating myself but as a country we’ve got addicted to cheaper imported labour. It was refreshing to see the long term NHS staff plan, about time ! but ones been needed for the country as a whole for donkeys years…or at the very least since Brexit

ps not sure about the recent changes to immigration policy. Some of the changes feel like they’re likely to cause more issues though. Devils in the details I guess.
Click to expand...

Austerity is a massive driver of demand for cheap labour
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,332
Interesting thread on immigration and education.

 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,333
What are we supposed to draw from this
 
Reactions: nicksar
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,334
fernandopartridge said:
Austerity is a massive driver of demand for cheap labour
Click to expand...

As I’ve suggested, the government can directly influence wages in say social care which would require increased Council funding. It could also focus on certain key sectors to better subsidise/incentivise further education which would require central government investment. There’s no ‘plan’ though. Just short term reactive policy
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,335
shmmeee said:
Oh, look what’s at the top of my Twitter feed…

Click to expand...

That comes from your false assumption that people who want left wing policy in the Labour party want it to be fronted up by the politicians you mention. The second post on his thread is absolute nonsense drivel and says that he's the crank.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,336
shmmeee said:
Oh, look what’s at the top of my Twitter feed…

Click to expand...

A paedophile?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,337
wingy said:
What are we supposed to draw from this
Click to expand...

Immigrant kids improve our education system like Canada and Aus not the opposite like the EU
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,338
OK guys I didn’t look into the Twitter rando
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,339
fernandopartridge said:
That comes from your false assumption that people who want left wing policy in the Labour party want it to be fronted up by the politicians you mention. The second post on his thread is absolute nonsense drivel and says that he's the crank.
Click to expand...

Then who? Because you can only work with what you’ve got. Are you not frustrated by the low quality of left wing MPs?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Dec 5, 2023
  • #32,340
Oh good. Another international comparison to worry about that I hadn’t even thought of

 
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