Do you want to discuss boring politics? (21 Viewers)

Grendel · Apr 1, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
She did things that would be radical left now, she funded BL ffs!

What is laughable is to decide something is radical based on the unemployment rate.

The first parliament did have large funding still of services - ironically most public sector workers here would have preferred her to Starmer - she gave double inflation pay rises of over 20%

The strategy was hardly softly softly like Starmer. There was huge changes in taxation - big reductions in direct taxation and big increases in indirect tax

It was a radical change but I guess ironic labour had even with private sector workers tried to use their influence with unions to keep wages below inflation and she offered more than they wanted

PVA · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Starmer is Doug King, what we need and an improvement if not the best we can imagine.

That's pretty good actually, I like that.

clint van damme · Apr 1, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
It's not a can't, but it's the old manager thing isn't it, do you come along and throw out everything and shift so radically everybody ends up destabilised, worried, confidence ends up rocked and nobody knows really what they're supposed to be doing, or do you build a foundation of the defence before looking to the attack?

So then you aim to undo things further down the line. Whether that happens or not (Blair) is the key really. Along with the fear that actually you stabilise things enough but the Tories win the election after...

Really, for a bit of security Labour needs the Liberals to improve again, and the new SNP leader to be a total waste of space. What genuinely (naively?) hadn't occurred to me until their leadership election is that they're not by definition a social democratic party, they get people all across the political spectrum who are only united by the goal of independence. That does offer a crack to split with a wrong move or two...

I dont think taking on the profiteers and putting in place mechanisms to protect the man in the street from the cost of living increases weve seen recently would be a destabilising stategy. No one seemed to worry too much when it goes the other way!

And Labour has no chance in Scotland, its past actions have seen to that.

clint van damme · Apr 1, 2023

PVA said:
That's pretty good actually, I like that.

Wellll not really, because despite everything, Doug King took on an entity which was on an upward trajectory in many ways, that's clearly not the case with the UK.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 1, 2023

As a small asid

clint van damme said:
I dont think taking on the profiteers and putting in place mechanisms to protect the man in the street from the cost of living increases weve seen recently would be a destabilising stategy. No one seemed to worry too much when it goes the other way!

And Labour has no chance in Scotland, its past actions have seen to that.

Lets see what comes up with point one. I did say I'd wait for the manifesto, and I'd be with you if there wasn't at least an echo of 2017.

Disagree about Scotland. Scotland's still socially democratic at heart - it's what the Liberals also fucked up going into coalition with the Tories, it was still one of the areas where a Kennedy tax and spend more went down well. SNP are strong as much because Sturgeon made them a social democratic alternative and, although their new leader's of similar politics, if he ain't as skilled in keeping things together it could all go pear shaped.

shmmeee · Apr 1, 2023

Ian1779 said:
Think you mean Rachel Reeves there pal

Has she done a numbers thing too?

shmmeee · Apr 1, 2023

clint van damme said:
Wellll not really, because despite everything, Doug King took on an entity which was on an upward trajectory in many ways, that's clearly not the case with the UK.

We as in Labour. We hit rock bottom. Starmer has tried and mostly succeeded in being both Kinnock and Blair in one term in opposition. Im expecting small tweaks in the first term and hopefully some more radical second term policies as is usual. But even that first term the fact is the pressures on and defaults of a Labour government are very different. We will see improvement on climate change, public services and workers rights under Labour we wouldn’t see under the Tories. No we’re not getting a socialist paradise by 2030, but we might at least get a functioning and slightly fairer country as we have with every Labour government.

clint van damme · Apr 1, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
As a small asid

Lets see what comes up with point one. I did say I'd wait for the manifesto, and I'd be with you if there wasn't at least an echo of 2017.

Disagree about Scotland. Scotland's still socially democratic at heart - it's what theLiberals also fucked up going into coalition with the Tories, it was still one of the areas where a Kennedy tax and spend more went down well. SNP are strong as much because Sturgeon made them a social democratic alternative and, although their new leader's of similar politics, if he ain't as skilled in keeping things together it could all go pear shaped.

I know it's only a small sample, but I have relatives who were set to vote no in the referendum and ended up voting yes and would vote yes again.

Seeing Labour door stepping with members of the far right did it for them.

The broken promises given by Brown on behalf of Westminister haven't been forgotten either.

I don't see a way back for Labour for a long time.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 1, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
As a small asid

Lets see what comes up with point one. I did say I'd wait for the manifesto, and I'd be with you if there wasn't at least an echo of 2017.

Disagree about Scotland. Scotland's still socially democratic at heart - it's what the Liberals also fucked up going into coalition with the Tories, it was still one of the areas where a Kennedy tax and spend more went down well. SNP are strong as much because Sturgeon made them a social democratic alternative and, although their new leader's of similar politics, if he ain't as skilled in keeping things together it could all go pear shaped.

He won a very narrow election, but they basically are guaranteed to win every time up there because the anti English vote is united behind one party and the rest are split.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 1, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
He won a very narrow election, but they basically are guaranteed to win every time up there because the anti English vote is united behind one party and the rest are split.

The point being, the party's only united because they've had a skilled politician in charge for a long time. Get the wrong leader, and that unity goes at the top, and filters downwards.

clint van damme · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
We as in Labour. We hit rock bottom. Starmer has tried and mostly succeeded in being both Kinnock and Blair in one term in opposition. Im expecting small tweaks in the first term and hopefully some more radical second term policies as is usual. But even that first term the fact is the pressures on and defaults of a Labour government are very different. We will see improvement on climate change, public services and workers rights under Labour we wouldn’t see under the Tories. No we’re not getting a socialist paradise by 2030, but we might at least get a functioning and slightly fairer country as we have with every Labour government.

And we might not.
You've got nothing to go on to suggest Starmer will bring about a 'functioning and slightly fairer country'.

I've got little to go on to say he won't, but I have got a little.

shmmeee · Apr 1, 2023

clint van damme said:
And we might not.
You've got nothing to go on to suggest Starmer will bring about a 'functioning and slightly fairer country'.

I've got little to go on to say he won't, but I have got a little.

Ive got his stated policy positions. What have you got?

PVA · Apr 1, 2023

clint van damme said:
Wellll not really, because despite everything, Doug King took on an entity which was on an upward trajectory in many ways, that's clearly not the case with the UK.

No Starmer took on a party that just suffered a crushing defeat and now looks set to hand out a crushing defeat in the space of one term.

How exactly does that make him Russell Slade? We wish Slade was that good!

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 1, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
The point being, the party's only united because they've had a skilled politician in charge for a long time. Get the wrong leader, and that unity goes at the top, and filters downwards.

If you want independence realistically there is only one option on the ballot. That is how you keep winning elections with 40-45% of the vote.

Corbyn caught them totally off guard and he out-lefted them, but even then he didn’t make serious inroads.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 1, 2023

clint van damme said:
And we might not.
You've got nothing to go on to suggest Starmer will bring about a 'functioning and slightly fairer country'.

I've got little to go on to say he won't, but I have got a little.

I'm slightly baffled that a party that still gives influence to Johnson, still has a number of senior figures who embrace a Truss style economics, has Jeremy Hunt as a moderate(!) would somehow see Starmer be no more fair than they are.

Grendel · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Ive got his stated policy positions. What have you got?

Are these the five pledges or the 10 pledges? In all this excitement I’ve lost track which promises we are on now

clint van damme · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Ive got his stated policy positions. What have you got?

Policies he's reneged on and wishy washy nonsense hes said he'll do like a years freeze on council tax.

His 5 mission bollocks is so vague its worthless,.

shmmeee · Apr 1, 2023

Grendel said:
Are these the five pledges or the 10 pledges? In all this excitement I’ve lost track which promises we are on now

Neither. The parties stated policy positions on things like workers rights and climate change are out there.

clint van damme · Apr 1, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
I'm slightly baffled that a party that still gives influence to Johnson, still has a number of senior figures who embrace a Truss style economics, has Jeremy Hunt as a moderate(!) would somehow see Starmer be no more fair than they are.

It's not a case of he wouldn't be more fair, I don't see him changing things enough to redress the last 5 or 6 years.
And if we settle for, 'we'll, its slightly better than it was under the tories' then we deserve everything we get.
On almost every metric, (probably every metric), we get rinsed more than comparable countries, (EU, G7 etc).

clint van damme · Apr 1, 2023

Grendel said:
Are these the five pledges or the 10 pledges? In all this excitement I’ve lost track which promises we are on now

Missions, 5 missions, a pledge is like a pinky swear, a mission is like swear on my mums life.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Neither. The parties stated policy positions on things like workers rights and climate change are out there.

Tony Blair didn’t repeal any anti union legislation at all. While the things on that website would be very welcome indeed I just have no confidence Starmer will pursue them.

He doesn’t look or sound like he cares.

clint van damme · Apr 1, 2023

PVA said:
No Starmer took on a party that just suffered a crushing defeat and now looks set to hand out a crushing defeat in the space of one term.

How exactly does that make him Russell Slade? We wish Slade was that good!

I'm talking about the country.

shmmeee · Apr 1, 2023

clint van damme said:
Policies he's reneged on and wishy washy nonsense hes said he'll do like a years freeze on council tax.

His 5 mission bollocks is so vague it’s worthless,.

Minimum wage to meet actual living wage.

Workers rights from day one.

Ban zero hour contracts.

Negotiate fair pay deals across the economy.

Insulate 19m homes.

Clean Air Act.

Massively expanded renewables.

Cancel Rwanda and work with the French on people smuggling

Double the number of medical school places.

Which of those are Tory policies exactly?

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 1, 2023

Grendel said:
Are these the five pledges or the 10 pledges? In all this excitement I’ve lost track which promises we are on now

10 pledges
5 missions
1 World Cup

shmmeee · Apr 1, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Tony Blair didn’t repeal any anti union legislation at all. While the things on that website would be very welcome indeed I just have no confidence Starmer will pursue them.

He doesn’t look or sound like he cares.

That’s a fair position. Do you think he’s more or less likely than Rishi Sunak to implement those policies?

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Cancel Rwanda

What have they tweeted?

shmmeee · Apr 1, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
What have they tweeted?

Liked a Suella Braverman tweet.

PVA · Apr 1, 2023

clint van damme said:
I'm talking about the country.

Well I was talking about the Labour Party.

And even if we were talking about the country he's clearly not Russell Slade.

Deleted member 5849 · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Minimum wage to meet actual living wage.

Workers rights from day one.

Ban zero hour contracts.

Negotiate fair pay deals across the economy.

Insulate 19m homes.

Clean Air Act.

Massively expanded renewables.

Cancel Rwanda and work with the French on people smuggling

Double the number of medical school places.

Which of those are Tory policies exactly?

Genuine question, but how do you obliterate a zero hour contract? I assume it's more a 'not tied to one employer on a zero hour contract, but can be attached for work as and when required'?

I mean, I have a couple of zero hour contracts and they tend to stay zero hour most of the time quite literally... by my choice! And that's a little different to the exploitative version of them...

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
That’s a fair position. Do you think he’s more or less likely than Rishi Sunak to implement those policies?

Very slightly more. But given his apathy towards things like the teachers non-pay offer, I haven’t much confidence. He could easily call the government out for not wanting to fully fund children’s education.

But he doesn’t, and thinks it’s being clever.

fernandopartridge · Apr 1, 2023

Deleted member 5849 said:
She did things that would be radical left now, she funded BL ffs!

What is laughable is to decide something is radical based on the unemployment rate.

She made drastic changes to income tax, corporation tax and doubled the rate of VAT

shmmeee · Apr 1, 2023

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Very slightly more. But given his apathy towards things like the teachers non-pay offer, I haven’t much confidence. He could easily call the government out for not wanting to fully fund children’s education.

But he doesn’t, and thinks it’s being clever.

Fact is though teachers would have far more sway over a Labour govt than a Tory one. His whole thing rightly or wrongly right now is not promising any unfunded spending.

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Fact is though teachers would have far more sway over a Labour govt than a Tory one. His whole thing rightly or wrongly right now is not promising any unfunded spending.

Not good enough. Teachers in England are now the worst paid in Britain-I could earn more as a state teacher in Scotland than in most English private schools.

It’s ok, he doesn’t care. Not your job to defend him.

Ian1779 · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Fact is though teachers would have far more sway over a Labour govt than a Tory one. His whole thing rightly or wrongly right now is not promising any unfunded spending.

That won’t be entirely true though, because there will always be money for bombs and weapons to send to Ukraine, just not for an education system in crisis.

clint van damme · Apr 1, 2023

shmmeee said:
Minimum wage to meet actual living wage.

Workers rights from day one.

Ban zero hour contracts.

Negotiate fair pay deals across the economy.

Insulate 19m homes.

Clean Air Act.

Massively expanded renewables.

Cancel Rwanda and work with the French on people smuggling

Double the number of medical school places.

Which of those are Tory policies exactly?

The minimum wage policy isn't much different from the tories unless you're in a small,specific age bracket.

I'm not sure we can trust them on workers rights given their attitude to the recent strikes and the rift that's opening up between Statmers Labour and the unions.

Sme goes for the 'fair pay deals' line given the noises they've been making around that.

All the green stuff, we'll see, I wouldn't be against that. Though seen as though we're about to open up a huge fuck off oil field it might not really make a great difference to the environment in the grand scheme of things. Though that's not on Starmer.

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