Do you want to discuss boring politics? (24 Viewers)

Deleted member 5849 · May 7, 2021

CCFCSteve said:
This is the most accurate post on here for a while !

People asked why did so many voted Tory at last election, I’m guessing without even reading their main manifesto promises (most are things that left/right would vote for). Those plus ‘get Brexit done’ (people wanted it out the way) and Corbyn/McDonnell perceived (probably actual) lack of patriotism...and it’s not hard to see why but I think the left can be so blinded by hating everything Tory they miss what makes the electorate tick

It’s not a lost cause for the Labour. They need to hold their nerve though (these are unusual times as discussed previously)

What the Tory Party have in charge atm is an old school Liberal really - free on individual liberties, not afraid to spend if needs be, not as small state as his party.

Whenever he goes, chances are his party shifts right given who's behind him, and that shifts certain places back Labour, especially post vaccine etc. It's very much an overreaction to a set of election results where, seemingly, there's little effort and there is undeniably a vaccine bounce but, conversely, current results show there's an appetite for social justice and lifting up - it just needs them to be authentic about it.

Starmer's selling points are that he's self-made, successful, principled, reliable. None of those are bad qualities to put forward.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 7, 2021

CCFCSteve said:
This is the most accurate post on here for a while !

People asked why did so many voted Tory at last election, I’m guessing without even reading their main manifesto promises (most are things that left/right would vote for). Those plus ‘get Brexit done’ (people wanted it out the way) and Corbyn/McDonnell perceived (probably actual) lack of patriotism...and it’s not hard to see why but I think the left can be so blinded by hating everything Tory they miss what makes the electorate tick

It’s not a lost cause for the Labour. They need to hold their nerve though (these are unusual times as discussed previously)

I think it is and we’re on for a permanent Tory state. There is no path for victory when perception and personality politics is all that seems to count.

Deleted member 5849 · May 7, 2021

fatso said:
I think that's far too simplistic an outlook.
The referendum was incredibly close, there were many remainers who went on and voted against labour.
If the election was purely down to Brexit, it would never od delivered an 80 seat majority.

Remember Liberals and Labour split the vote though - it needed a Lib-Lab pact, but Libs hated Corbyn too much, and he wasn't going to compromise on anything

shmmeee · May 7, 2021

I should say again that I voted Corbyn in after seeing him at leadership hustings. In those hustings he made me (a leftie) feel “seen” and valued and liked. He spoke about a future I’d like to see where we meet my priorities (investment, climate change, education, higher wages). I didn’t know about some of his weirder positions and the few I did (homeopathy) I was happy to shove to the back of my mind for the rest.

I should point out that pseudoscience is a big red line for me. I stopped voting Green due to their nonsense on nuclear and GMOs. But even that didn’t stop me supporting Corbyn full throated because the rest was so good. The antisemitism was vague enough to be written off as smears at first.

That’s literally all the Tories do. The public know Johnson is a shit in some places, and can justify and handwave some other places because he’s the first person in ages listening to a section of the electorate that post Blair has been ignored at best and vilified at worst. And ironically they’re the largest section of the electorate.

The Tories are election winning machines. At their best they are razor focused on projecting responsiveness to voter concerns even if, often especially if, they don’t align with right wing ideology fully. They keep quiet about the stuff they want to do (shrink the state and pass public assets to their mates) or frame it only in terms the public likes. And they win, and they get their agenda established.

SBAndy · May 7, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
What the Tory Party have in charge atm is an old school Liberal really - free on individual liberties, not afraid to spend if needs be, not as small state as his party.

Whenever he goes, chances are his party shifts right given who's behind him, and that shifts certain places back Labour, especially post vaccine etc. It's very much an overreaction to a set of election results where, seemingly, there's little effort and there is undeniably a vaccine bounce but, conversely, current results show there's an appetite for social justice and lifting up - it just needs them to be authentic about it.

Starmer's selling points are that he's self-made, successful, principled, reliable. None of those are bad qualities to put forward.

Fair point on the area of the political spectrum that the Tories are occupying at the moment. And where they will likely head.

On the subject of a lack of effort in the local elections, that is why I was 100% confident that I’d wake up this morning and the Tories would have taken Nuneaton & Bedworth. They’ve been going on about it for at least 2-3 months. In that time, not a sausage out of Labour.

shmmeee · May 7, 2021

fernandopartridge said:
Rising house prices are the election winner. That's mostly what it comes down to, that's what a sizeable proportion of the electorate care about.

This is entirely intentional as well. And as a new homeowner as of today, and a new resident of a Tory council, I can’t wait for the good times to roll

fatso · May 7, 2021

Philosorapter said:
Looks like a Labour civil war has been declared on Radio 4 and we've got three days of electon results to go.

That could be good news for labour.
Something has to change for them, they cant just plod on losing one seat after another.
Sooner or later they will have to make the tough decisions and turn themselves around.
I just wonder if KS is the type of strong personality to do it.

PVA · May 7, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Boris lad. Rolling out the gun ships, that'll learn 'em. Tank top wearing bum boys, lol, he says what he thinks. Top shagger.

This. I fucking despair that these things are more important to the majority than funding the NHS or helping those in need.

I do not like the direction this country is heading in.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 7, 2021

fatso said:
That could be good news for labour.
Something has to change for them, they cant just plod on losing one seat after another.
Sooner or later they will have to make the tough decisions and turn themselves around.
I just wonder if KS is the type of strong personality to do it.

Just wind up the party at this point

Deleted member 5849 · May 7, 2021

fatso said:
I just wonder if KS is the type of strong personality to do it.

His track record pre politics says very much yes. It's more if the machinery goes with him.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 7, 2021

PVA said:
This. I fucking despair that these things are more important to the majority than funding the NHS or helping those in need.

I do not like the direction this country is heading in.

Missus and I more seriously talked about emigrating today. As and when Philosorapter leads Scotland to independence

Deleted member 5849 · May 7, 2021

In fact with Starmer, it's maybe right person, wrong time. Put bluntly, when you have a posh Old Etonian on one side, you need a blunt northerner to face off against them. The loss of Scotland restricts the pool there too

Brighton Sky Blue · May 7, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
In fact with Starmer, it's maybe right person, wrong time. Put bluntly, when you have a posh Old Etonian on one side, you need a blunt northerner to face off against them. The loss of Scotland restricts the pool there too

Ian Murray is quite good and has held his seat through both 2015 and 2019. I’d like to see him given higher prominence. Anas Sarwar will continue to do well also.

fatso · May 7, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
Remember Liberals and Labour split the vote though - it needed a Lib-Lab pact, but Libs hated Corbyn too much, and he wasn't going to compromise on anything

But the Brexit party split the tory vote.
It would of been a 100+ seat majority had it not been for the votes lost to them.

(as claimed by a number of statisticians at the time, but you know how statistics can say anything you want)

PVA · May 7, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Missus and I more seriously talked about emigrating today. As and when Philosorapter leads Scotland to independence

I don't blame you.

I would if I could but couldn't up sticks with our business.

I have a 6 month old daughter and would rather she didn't grow up under such a nationalist government only interested in lining their own pockets.

shmmeee · May 7, 2021

My electoral advice for Labour, in the form of a Karen FB meme:

PVA · May 7, 2021

I did enjoy this from Bercow though, deafening silence from that corrupt prick Jenrick at the end. This cheered me up a bit

Deleted member 5849 · May 7, 2021

fatso said:
But the Brexit party split the tory vote.
It would of been a 100+ seat majority had it not been for the votes lost to them.

(as claimed by a number of statisticians at the time, but you know how statistics can say anything you want)

They didn't stand in areas where they thought they'd stop a Tory win.

It was playing the system rather than the percentages. Also how, incidentally, the Liberals ended up with 60 seats but a smaller vote share.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 7, 2021

PVA said:
I don't blame you.

I would if I could but couldn't up sticks with our business.

I have a 6 month old daughter and would rather she didn't grow up under such a nationalist government only interested in lining their own pockets.

We would either move back to her roots north of the border or some left wing haven on the coast. Just tired of what the country has become

Brighton Sky Blue · May 7, 2021

shmmeee said:
My electoral advice for Labour, in the form of a Karen FB meme:

Great

Deleted member 5849 · May 7, 2021

Oh, even in the 70s, Harold Wilson realised that in opposition to Ted Heath, what he needed to emphasise was Northern pipe smoker, rather than Oxford educated.

You need a distinction. Blair could work because he was up against Major, Cameron wouldn't have worked against Blair, reverse the positions and Brown would have worked against an incumbent Cameron government.

Over simplified obviously, but what they need to do where they are is play on their leader's strong beliefs and willingness to fight for what he thinks is right, and the working man.

fatso · May 7, 2021

shmmeee said:
But they also think their workmates are lazy bastards or that they would leave a burning building.

It’s deeper than any comment. It’s a guttural feeling that the working class aren’t liked by Labour activists and some MPs. It’s born out of social activism needing to make every problem sound huge to get support IMO.

It’s the sneering at the flag. The sneering at working class culture. The sneering at voters for voting how they voted.

That’s the activist left. The political establishment soft left isn’t much better, all patronising and maternal and knows what’s best.

Immigration was just a microcosm but a good case study. People said “I don’t like the pace of change in my community” (a perfectly normal human reaction seen around the world and not rooted in racism) Labour saw it as a defect that needed fixing in people “too racist” “too easily led by the media” “too stupid to understand how important immigrants are”.

Focus on every smaller groups at the exclusion of the majority. The problem with minority identity politics is by definition it doesn’t concern a majority of people.

The closest Labour have is Jess Phillips for not hating the working class. But instead she decided to hate 49% of the population instead (I don’t think that’s true but that’s what’s received).

The left are perfectly capable of pulling their head out of their arses, having a bit of humility, and seeing the upper class as the enemy not the bloke in the pub who said “blind spot” in front of a blind person or whatever.

We talk condescendingly about the Tories putting the working class against each other but then do it ourselves all the fucking time.

I'm starting to feel uncomfortable agreeing with you so much !!!

Brighton Sky Blue · May 7, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
Oh, even in the 70s, Harold Wilson realised that in opposition to Ted Heath, what he needed to emphasise was Northern pipe smoker, rather than Oxford educated.

You need a distinction. Blair could work because he was up against Major, Cameron wouldn't have worked against Blair, reverse the positions and Brown would have worked against an incumbent Cameron government.

Over simplified obviously, but what they need to do where they are is play on their leader's strong beliefs and willingness to fight for what he thinks is right, and the working man.

Boris has conned enough people into thinking he believes in Brexit despite writing essays for and against it so he could make a political calculation.

Rich
Posh accent
Long words
Tells jokes
Waves flag
Holds pints

80 seat majority

Brighton Sky Blue · May 7, 2021

fatso said:
I'm starting to feel uncomfortable agreeing with you so much !!!

I guess it’s because he’s a self hating Labour voter

Philosoraptor · May 7, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Missus and I more seriously talked about emigrating today. As and when Philosorapter leads Scotland to independence

I was one of the very first to call for a new referendum on Scotland's status after the UK voted to leave the EU.

It is a huge forced change to Scotland's Constitution against the wishes of the Scottish electorate.

CCFCSteve · May 7, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I think it is and we’re on for a permanent Tory state. There is no path for victory when perception and personality politics is all that seems to count.

Times change BSB. People probably thought that when Thatcher and Blair were in charge. NWs right, take Johnson out the equation and Tories would struggle unless they’re hiding someone behind the scenes (Sunak is the only one that seems to currently have wider appeal). You’ve only got to be better than the alternative(s) on offer

If Tories shift right, Labour need to occupy centre... I can see them shifting left if they panic though which might leave door open for an alternative Tory leader

Who knows though

Deleted member 5849 · May 7, 2021

Philosorapter said:
I was one of the very first to call for a new referendum on Scotland's status after the UK voted to leave the EU.

It is a huge forced change to Scotland's Constitution against the wishes of the Scottish electorate.

It's true, and conversely if we're going state rather than bloc, is more consistent to go for it now than under the Blair years, when everyone just loved being part of a global multicultural world!

fatso · May 7, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I guess it’s because he’s a self hating Labour voter

I think he's just being honest and accepting there are issues that need to be faced up to.

It's pointless trying to win elections when your in turmoil Internally, and still living in denial.

There's definitely room for left leaning politics, but maybe not so left as momentum would wish.

imho.

Deleted member 5849 · May 7, 2021

CCFCSteve said:
I can see them shifting left if they panic though which might leave door open for an alternative Tory leader

Depends where they go though. The 2017 manifesto delivered by a more palatable voice could have played even better... although tbf Corbyn ran a good campaign that election. The issue last GE was partly the one the Tories had under Blair - Johnson and co were promising to spend so, what could Labour do? Promise to spend even more! It was a bit like how the Tories lurched uber-right under Hague and Howard, because they had to show themselves as the rightest party!

PVA · May 7, 2021

CCFCSteve said:
Tories would struggle unless they’re hiding someone behind the scenes (Sunak is the only one that seems to currently have wider appeal).

Sunak is too small to be PM. Genuinely. People wouldn't vote for someone who looks like this!

Brighton Sky Blue · May 7, 2021

CCFCSteve said:
Times change BSB. People probably thought that when Thatcher and Blair were in charge. NWs right, take Johnson out the equation and Tories would struggle unless they’re hiding someone behind the scenes (Sunak is the only one that seems to currently have wider appeal). You’ve only got to be better than the alternative(s) on offer

If Tories shift right, Labour need to occupy centre... I can see them shifting left if they panic though which might leave door open for an alternative Tory leader

Who knows though

It will require Labour turning half of England, which just seems gone for good. While I hate the SNP, they would disappear in an independent Scotland and it would be run much closer to how I feel it should be. Aside from independence I agree with Scots on a great deal, in England I feel increasingly like an outsider.

Ian1779 · May 7, 2021

shmmeee said:
My electoral advice for Labour, in the form of a Karen FB meme:

My advice on reflection is that we’ve got to get out and do stuff at council level while we have the opportunity. When you look at what Burnham is doing in Manchester, or some of the Labour councils in places like Hull or Preston they are doing tangible stuff. Whether it’s a regional bus scheme in Manchester, or their own version of socialism in Hull, it’s translating to actual positive change on the ground. This matters to people.

In my own area (which is staunchly Tory until they wiped the council) people were concerned about anti-social behaviour so they did something about it. Stuck up a skate park, basketball/football court and gave youngsters something they could do and it fixed theproblem. It was pro-active, not heavy handed and straight for the ASBO’s. It’s the little things that do have an impact.
I haven’t lived in Coventry for a long time, but does the Labour council there actually do stuff, or is a group of self-interest careerists looking after themselves?

Maybe it’s time to focus on what we do and where we can do some things - and stop talking about everyone else.

Brighton Sky Blue · May 7, 2021

Philosorapter said:
I was one of the very first to call for a new referendum on Scotland's status after the UK voted to leave the EU.

It is a huge forced change to Scotland's Constitution against the wishes of the Scottish electorate.

Some of them, not the million who voted for it and thus all went Tory in 2017.

fatso · May 7, 2021

PVA said:
Sunak is too small to be PM. Genuinely. People wouldn't vote for someone who looks like this!

I could never vote for someone that small
(I'm heightist)
And those legs are sooo skinny.
He's having to take massive strides to keep up with the other guy, who's hardly moving!!!

Skybluefaz · May 7, 2021

PVA said:
Sunak is too small to be PM. Genuinely. People wouldn't vote for someone who looks like this!

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