Do you want to discuss boring politics? (25 Viewers)

shmmeee · Feb 15, 2021

Been thinking about this a lot.

The Tories are an election winning machine first and foremost. They don’t care about most of the stuff in their manifesto, just window dressing to get them elected so they can do what they want (sell off public property cheap to their mates and give themselves massive tax breaks and government contracts).

I think, personally, I’ve decided Labour need to do the same. It’s all very honourable only taking advice and money from the purest of the pure and playing by Queensbury rules, but when the result is losing a street fight and the people you exist for getting fucked over, I’m not convinced of the actual moral goodness achieved.

clint van damme · Feb 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
Been thinking about this a lot.

The Tories are an election winning machine first and foremost. They don’t care about most of the stuff in their manifesto, just window dressing to get them elected so they can do what they want (sell off public property cheap to their mates and give themselves massive tax breaks and government contracts).

I think, personally, I’ve decided Labour need to do the same. It’s all very honourable only taking advice and money from the purest of the pure and playing by Queensbury rules, but when the result is losing a street fight and the people you exist for getting fucked over, I’m not convinced of the actual moral goodness achieved.

The problem is that the media will scrutinise Labour's manifesto far more than the Tories.
People can deny it but they got away with an uncosted manifesto last time out where as Labour's costings got torn apart.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
Been thinking about this a lot.

The Tories are an election winning machine first and foremost. They don’t care about most of the stuff in their manifesto, just window dressing to get them elected so they can do what they want (sell off public property cheap to their mates and give themselves massive tax breaks and government contracts).

I think, personally, I’ve decided Labour need to do the same. It’s all very honourable only taking advice and money from the purest of the pure and playing by Queensbury rules, but when the result is losing a street fight and the people you exist for getting fucked over, I’m not convinced of the actual moral goodness achieved.

I'm assuming you're talking about the tactics rather than the corruption there...

But it's definitely where other parties on the left need to improve - winning election. Don't bother with careful policy decisions and detail, just get a couple of catchy slogans and headliners, stick to campaigning on those and total ignore any other questions. Johnson got away with it just by repeating Get Brexit Done to everything. Education, health and care service, defence - didn't matter. just turn it onto Get brexit Done.

Other thing they need to do is kick the Tories when they've got something on them and keep kicking them like the Tories did with anti-Semitism. Or save it to the very end of the campaign and just hit the electorate with a barrage of misdeeds. Or the Hillary Clinton strategy as I call it. The anti-Semitism/Islamophobia report that never happened, the corruption on govt contracts, letting Cummings get away with crap, Windrush and PritiPatel, even Johnson's personal life (though that would prob have to be done more slyly via the Twitterati due to potentially legal ramifications.

Trouble is Starmer isn't a guy to do that. He's strait-laced and about as charismatic as wet lettuce. I like him - I think he'd be extremely capable as PM - but he doesn't have it in him to win the election, especially against the shithousery that the Tories would get down to.

Ian1779 · Feb 15, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I'm assuming you're talking about the tactics rather than the corruption there...

But it's definitely where other parties on the left need to improve - winning election. Don't bother with careful policy decisions and detail, just get a couple of catchy slogans and headliners, stick to campaigning on those and total ignore any other questions. Johnson got away with it just by repeating Get Brexit Done to everything. Education, health and care service, defence - didn't matter. just turn it onto Get brexit Done.

Other thing they need to do is kick the Tories when they've got something on them and keep kicking them like the Tories did with anti-Semitism. Or save it to the very end of the campaign and just hit the electorate with a barrage of misdeeds. Or the Hillary Clinton strategy as I call it. The anti-Semitism/Islamophobia report that never happened, the corruption on govt contracts, letting Cummings get away with crap, Windrush and PritiPatel, even Johnson's personal life (though that would prob have to be done more slyly via the Twitterati due to potentially legal ramifications.

Trouble is Starmer isn't a guy to do that. He's strait-laced and about as charismatic as wet lettuce. I like him - I think he'd be extremely capable as PM - but he doesn't have it in him to win the election, especially against the shithousery that the Tories would get down to.

You are right about slogans - in 2017 ‘For the many, not the few’ really resonated - but by 2019 ‘Get Brexit Done’ came and squarely kicked it in the bollocks.

I think Starmer does have potential, but is being badly advised somewhere along the line.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 15, 2021

Ian1779 said:
You are right about slogans - in 2017 ‘For the many, not the few’ really resonated - but by 2019 ‘Get Brexit Done’ came and squarely kicked it in the bollocks.

I think Starmer does have potential, but is being badly advised somewhere along the line.

Same with Trump.

Basically three word slogans seem to be the way to go.

"Yes We Can"
"Get Brexit Done"
"Lock Her Up"
"Build The Wall"

So instead of "For The Many Not The few" could just be "For Us All"

shmmeee · Feb 15, 2021

Definitely three word slogans. And GCSE English student can tell you that.

I like “Eat The Rich” personally, not sure how it’ll focus group though.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Feb 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
Definitely three word slogans. And GCSE English student can tell you that.

I like “Eat The Rich” personally, not sure how it’ll focus group though.

Be a good counterpoint to the right's "Kill The Poor"

Ian1779 · Feb 18, 2021

Worth a listen - let’s see what he has to say.

chiefdave · Feb 18, 2021

Ian1779 said:
Worth a listen - let’s see what he has to say.

Turns out not really worth a listen and not really a lot to say. Given this had been touted as a relaunch of sorts it was very underwhelming and short on anything resembling a policy. Going to need a lot of fleshing out in the coming weeks if this is supposed to be Labours new direction.

Also, I know its a small thing, but can Labour not afford to hire a graphic designer?

shmmeee · Feb 18, 2021

chiefdave said:
Turns out not really worth a listen and not really a lot to say. Given this had been touted as a relaunch of sorts it was very underwhelming and short on anything resembling a policy. Going to need a lot of fleshing out in the coming weeks if this is supposed to be Labours new direction.

Also, I know its a small thing, but can Labour not afford to hire a graphic designer?

Can’t afford much since Corbyn bankrupted the party TBF.

People need to stop asking for detailed policy announcements four years from an election. It just isn’t going to happen.

Haven’t watched the speech but what I’ve seen seems good. It was designed to make us more pro business because obviously that’s going to be a battleground in the near future and to set expectations before the budget that we should get something big. We’ll see how it works when we get the budget statement.

wingy · Feb 18, 2021

If this is the responsible route of labour I think they missed the boat on Yvette Cooper !!

chiefdave · Feb 18, 2021

shmmeee said:
People need to stop asking for detailed policy announcements four years from an election. It just isn’t going to happen.

Not expecting detailed policy announcements but when its been hyped up as a major speech and a relaunch of Starmers leadership I would expect to be able to come away with at least a vague idea of the parties direction under Starmer.

As a floating voter there was nothing in there that made me think I'll be voting Labour at the next election. It might be a way off but I'm not sure a few years of being viewed as ineffective and devoid of ideas is going to help win votes when the time comes.

shmmeee · Feb 18, 2021

chiefdave said:
Not expecting detailed policy announcements but when its been hyped up as a major speech and a relaunch of Starmers leadership I would expect to be able to come away with at least a vague idea of the parties direction under Starmer.

As a floating voter there was nothing in there that made me think I'll be voting Labour at the next election. It might be a way off but I'm not sure a few years of being viewed as ineffective and devoid of ideas is going to help win votes when the time comes.

Floating voters aren’t watching political speeches at midday on a Thursday. It’s positioning ahead of the budget, that’s all.

If you keep expecting detail four years away when the government can just Nick all your good ideas, you’re going to keep being disappointed.

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 18, 2021

shmmeee said:
Floating voters aren’t watching political speeches at midday on a Thursday. It’s positioning ahead of the budget, that’s all.

If you keep expecting detail four years away when the government can just Nick all your good ideas, you’re going to keep being disappointed.

Two foot them from behind?

shmmeee · Feb 18, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
Two foot them from behind?

@chiefdave is very much from the Nick school of politics. Get in early doors and let them know you’re there

Skybluefaz · Feb 18, 2021

He's gonna have to comment on Brexit at some point.

David O'Day · Feb 18, 2021

It was a good speech that outlined some decent ideas and it's got the Tories panicking again and pretending these are their policies anyway.

Somewhere in No.11 Sunak is rewriting his budget

Ian1779 · Feb 18, 2021

It started well and tailed off near the end.

shmmeee · Feb 18, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
He's gonna have to comment on Brexit at some point.

Why?

Skybluefaz · Feb 18, 2021

shmmeee said:
Why?

Because I feel it's a bit like the elephant in the room. What do you think? Just let it continue to be a shit show and let the Tories own it?

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 18, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Because I feel it's a bit like the elephant in the room. What do you think? Just let it continue to be a shit show and let the Tories own it?

Let them own it as long as it's a disaster, yep. As soon as it gets closer to an election, if despite it being a disaster people seem happy, or it turns around a bit, come out and say how much you love Brexit.

But don't do it now.

fernandopartridge · Feb 18, 2021

Nothing particularly exciting, some short term ideas but still very much operating within the current structures.
The bond idea seems illogical fiscally (public borrowing at rates higher than the market otherwise offers), obviously targeted at the asset rich, maybe pensioners who voted Tory.

Skybluefaz · Feb 18, 2021

Ha ha, what a fucking worrying line up of thunder cunts. Worrying because people will be bending over backwards to believe it.

Ian1779 · Feb 18, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Ha ha, what a fucking worrying line up of thunder cunts. Worrying because people will be bending over backwards to believe it.

Was talking to my mum about this - she’s wetting herself in excitement as she thinks it’s the end of the ‘anti-Brexit’ BBC and Sky News.

Its just going to be LBC with more cameras.

Skybluefaz · Feb 18, 2021

Ian1779 said:
Was talking to my mum about this - she’s wetting herself in excitement as she thinks it’s the end of the ‘anti-Brexit’ BBC and Sky News.

Its just going to be LBC with more cameras.

I wonder what poor old Nigel is thinking. Must be sat by his phone waiting for the phone call.

Ian1779 · Feb 18, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
I wonder what poor old Nigel is thinking. Must be sat by his phone waiting for the phone call.

Please just pick up.....

fernandopartridge · Feb 18, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
I wonder what poor old Nigel is thinking. Must be sat by his phone waiting for the phone call.

He'll be asking Andrew Neill to smell his cheese

shmmeee · Feb 18, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Because I feel it's a bit like the elephant in the room. What do you think? Just let it continue to be a shit show and let the Tories own it?

Literally no one wants to talk about it and COVID has given them the perfect cover.

Crack on and focus on the here and now not fight battles from five years ago. We’re out, going back in isn’t an option for at least an election cycle and likely wouldn’t be a great deal anyway. Plenty to worry about domestically post COVID.

Skybluefaz · Feb 18, 2021

shmmeee said:
Literally no one wants to talk about it and COVID has given them the perfect cover.

Crack on and focus on the here and now not fight battles from five years ago. We’re out, going back in isn’t an option for at least an election cycle and likely wouldn’t be a great deal anyway. Plenty to worry about domestically post COVID.

Fair enough.

clint van damme · Feb 18, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Fair enough.

not really, it's insipid nonsense.
Disaster capitalists, never ones to pass up an opportunity, have made billions out of this pandemic and we've got this fucking wet lettuce as our supposed leader.

Skybluefaz · Feb 18, 2021

clint van damme said:
not really, it's insipid nonsense.
Disaster capitalists, never ones to pass up an opportunity, have made billions out of this pandemic and we've got this fucking wet lettuce as our supposed leader.

Ha ha, I meant his opinion was fair enough. I am not entirely sure on how labour deal with Brexit going forward. Part of me thinks call it out but I also see what Shmmeee is saying in staying well clear. My enthusiasm for Starmer is on the slide, but it's still very weird times. When Covid isn't so prominent it'll be interesting to see how things are.

Ian1779 · Feb 18, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Ha ha, I meant his opinion was fair enough. I am not entirely sure on how labour deal with Brexit going forward. Part of me thinks call it out but I also see what Shmmeee is saying in staying well clear. My enthusiasm for Starmer is on the slide, but it's still very weird times. When Covid isn't so prominent it'll be interesting to see how things are.

He doesn’t provide anything to enthuse about. Some people call it sensible apparently.

clint van damme · Feb 18, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Ha ha, I meant his opinion was fair enough. I am not entirely sure on how labour deal with Brexit going forward. Part of me thinks call it out but I also see what Shmmeee is saying in staying well clear. My enthusiasm for Starmer is on the slide, but it's still very weird times. When Covid isn't so prominent it'll be interesting to see how things are.

imagine what will happen in Davey makes a referendum on rejoining the EU a Libs keystone policy?

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 18, 2021

clint van damme said:
imagine what will happen in Davey makes a referendum on rejoining the EU a Libs keystone policy?

They take the South, Labour the North, and Conservatives lose 250 seats?

clint van damme · Feb 18, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
They take the South, Labour the North, and Conservatives lose 250 seats?

I'm not sure it's the Tories who would suffer most.

Do you want to discuss boring politics? (25 Viewers)

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