Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
This weird appetite to see people fired is just something I won't understand I guess.
This weird appetite to see people fired is just something I won't understand I guess.Find productive work elsewhere? If someone is unproductive, then we definitely do not want them being on the government payroll.
You were obviously being sarcastic in the first instance but co’mon, if someone is unproductive in any role (private or public), it’s best that they go elsewhere in the economy. At least with private businesses, if they fail they’re not always bailed out using public money.
Well, gold plated public sector pensions cost a lot of money that isn’t actually funded. It’s a government IOU and the costs are spiralling year in year.
So they already add to welfare bill…
This weird appetite to see people fired is just something I won't understand I guess.
If my taxes are being raised over and over, then employee contributions are being cut to pay for a bloated public sector… It makes perfect sense.This weird appetite to see people fired is just something I won't understand I guess.
We were talking about both private and public sector workers. Though on the latter...you didn't give me an answer on how many people you want to sack.If my taxes are being raised over and over, then employee contributions are being cut to pay for a bloated public sector… It makes perfect sense.
Except for private schools...You shouldn’t if it harms the output but also people should not be employed if they aren’t needed - no business is a charity
How can I give you an accurate number? It’s a completely pointless question.We were talking about both private and public sector workers. Though on the latter...you didn't give me an answer on how many people you want to sack.
Can you give a ballpark figure?
Thanks for answering the question in any case. I'd hope as and when Reform take charge that they see the good sense in having more STEM graduates in the civil service as Starmer has strongly hinted at in the past year.How can I give you an accurate number? It’s a completely pointless question.
We do know the public sector has expanded and productivity has flatlined. So something isn’t adding up and this is something you can’t blame austerity on. The civil service has swelled by 30% over the last 10 years and we can all agree that the output you expect has gone down.
Reform pledged and the Tories drew up plans to get the civil service back to 2015 levels and that equates to a 100k cut in today’s money. That’s probably a good start and more or less every civil servant has a degree so I don’t think they’ll be on the dole for very long. I know it’s personal to you because you want to join the civil service and sincerely hope you get there and that’s a role that adds value.
As Grendel said, businesses and the government is not a charity. If the jobs aren’t needed, then why pay someone to do nothing.
Except for private schools...
Thanks for answering the question in any case. I'd hope as and when Reform take charge that they see the good sense in having more STEM graduates in the civil service as Starmer has strongly hinted at in the past year.
I just feel it's important to remember that when we are talking about shrinking the state/streamlining government etc, it actually means taking work away from a not inconsiderable number of people. I'd be saying that irrespective of my own career plans.
They literally are registered charities. Are you saying they shouldn't be?They aren’t charities. Terrible argument - they have to be self sufficient
They literally are registered charities. Are you saying they shouldn't be?
Sounds very woke and lefty to me.Maybe we need a cultural shift and start to do these things for our parents ourselves.
The have charitable statusThey aren’t charities. Terrible argument - they have to be self sufficient
I can answer both of those questions right now.Zahawi was popular with Tory members iirc. The problem Reform has, is that needs talented people to join its ranks rather than party appointees.
The big question mark many voters have about Reform are:
1. Can Farage work with other people effectively
2. Does it have the expertise to run government effectively
This is a problem the Greens will also face if they break through. At the current polling, the Greens are likely to cause Labour to drop to a rump of parliamentary seats.
Legitimate concerns, no different from Labour it would seem.I can answer both of those questions right now.
1. No
2. No.
You may not have noticed but many of the newer hospitals have been built on the university model, including our own.Let’s start with what we all agree on:
The healthcare system is broken and bloated.
Rightly or wrongly, Turkey has a booming trade in cosmetic procedures which employs nurses and support staff and consumes medical equipment and supplies. It also provides footfall for local Hospitality industry.
The UK is still home to manufacturing of some medical equipment such as bladed items and has the ability to manufacture specialist machinery.
The US health system is absolutely bonkers expensive.
Park those 3 items.
Suggestion:
Build teaching hospitals on a university model.
Build a raft of new hospital infrastructure (costs money but creates jobs) and equipment and provide training.
Make the UK a go to destination for cutting edge treatments, let the private sector enjoy the potential footfall externally.
Economies of scale SHOULD give us more NHS capacity at a proportionally lower cost.
Tempting ethical health tourism from places like the USA for certain treatments dilutes overhead and contributes to GDP
Personally I’d find a way of providing a degree of free healthcare for the neediest in the world as a direct switch for the Foreign Aid bill; rather than send money to other countries provide emergency care, medial missionaries at an equitable value.
There are people who don't add value in any large organisation, public or private. I once worked in big pharma where we genuinely held meetings over how to have more productive meetings, projects ran way over time and budget etc etc.The taxes being levied to pay for these jobs are causing employers to cut jobs in the private sector. The only job market expanding atm is the public sector.
Undoubtedly, there will be short term pain for many people. Equally, businesses and individuals are feeling the pain of propping up an unproductive and inefficient civil service. That also isn’t fair.
We’re not talking about doctors, nurses, policemen/women, soldiers, firefighters or teachers… we’re talking about bureaucrats who often aren’t adding value.
Brexit added about 120k bureaucrats because of the bureaucracy it caused. That’s pretty much the entirety of the growth in bureaucrats since 2015. You know who to thank for the rise in bureaucrats. Oddly it’s the same people telling you that there’s too many.we’re talking about bureaucrats who often aren’t adding value.
So it would appear that you agree with revoking private school charity status.The expression meant that public sectors aren’t charities that employ people at tax payer expense who aren’t productive - they should be the same as any private companies
Actual charities clearly would not waste money on non productive people.
The have charitable status
That's a feeling most of the workforce in the place that I currently work at (not for long). However, the fundamental difference is that those businesses fail, they'll cut headcount and they can't just go cap in hand to central government.There are people who don't add value in any large organisation, public or private. I once worked in big pharma where we genuinely held meetings over how to have more productive meetings, projects ran way over time and budget etc etc.
You have referred to it as a 'moving the goalposts' point in the past, but how do you actually measure the productivity of a white collar worker who isn't in sales?
All roads lead to Rome, I mean Brexit.Brexit added about 120k bureaucrats because of the bureaucracy it caused. That’s pretty much the entirety of the growth in bureaucrats since 2015. You know who to thank for the rise in bureaucrats. Oddly it’s the same people telling you that there’s too many.
Remind me what happened during the 2008 GFC.That's a feeling most of the workforce in the place that I currently work at (not for long). However, the fundamental difference is that those businesses fail, they'll cut headcount and they can't just go cap in hand to central government.
Or another way of saying that is since we left the EU i.e. the 31/01/2020. Which just so happened to coincide with the pandemic. The majority of that 92k was for Brexit. The scramble for customs officers and related workers is 50k on it’s own.However, the biggest rise in the civil service has been since COVID, 92k of that 120k increase.
Remind me what happened during the 2008 GFC.
Well it was a generation defining economic event...criminal bankers brought the house down and governments here and elsewhere had to bail them out. They did what they did knowing that the government couldn't afford to just let them go under. Their profits were privatised but the losses were socialised. Before not too long some of those same bankers were back to collecting generous bonuses when they should have been in prison.Was that the right policy decision though? I'm not 100% sure it was. It was a Labour government that intervened in the economy back then, probably the right thing to do given the bigger picture.
It's kinda hard to have a reasonable conversation if you're going to continually reach for exceptions to the rule. The government also propped up Tata steel in Port Talbot... There will be occasions governments choose to intervene and bail out private companies.
Voluntary liquidations hit 12.6k (total liquidations = 36k) in 24/25... how many did Labour step in to save?
The scramble was pre-Brexit...Or another way of saying that is since we left the EU i.e. the 31/01/2020. Which just so happened to coincide with the pandemic. The majority of that 92k was for Brexit. The scramble for customs officers and related workers is 50k on it’s own.
Yep, I've heard this many times from the likes of Owen Jones. The point remains: it's an exception to the rule and just derails the direction of the conversation.Well it was a generation defining economic event...criminal bankers brought the house down and governments here and elsewhere had to bail them out. They did what they did knowing that the government couldn't afford to just let them go under. Their profits were privatised but the losses were socialised. Before not too long some of those same bankers were back to collecting generous bonuses when they should have been in prison.
George Osborne later admitted that the Labour government was correct in doing what it did.
I have said more than once about how you could significantly improve value for money in state education without spending an extra penny: de-academise and get rid of the influx of highly paid MAT executives and MAT level staff who divert significant sums of money away from the front line service. I'm less familiar with other sectors but I wouldn't be surprised if a similar story isn't there in other public services.Yep, I've heard this many times from the likes of Owen Jones. The point remains: it's an exception to the rule and just derails the direction of the conversation.
Ultimately, who's holding these departments to account? You've got records of middle managers and those on 5-figure salaries being appointed and the system, like many in the UK, is not fit for purpose and has become an employment scheme for grads.
It really wasn’t, we were woefully short of customs officers, administrators (that’s what I mean by related workers) and indeed the infrastructure. It was a complete clusterfuck. We wasn’t even ready to leave at the end of the transition period let alone in Jan 2020. It was an absolute joke and speaking as someone involved in import and export for my job during that period I can’t begin to tell you how difficult it became. We were having to do things like pay for an entire artic trailer to move a couple of pallets of hazardous goods because it was just too complicated in bureaucracy to get a carrier move a mix load of hazardous so they would simply just refuse the job then have trailers stuck at ports waiting for paperwork to be sorted. You had to pay for the whole trailer and only move one hazardous class per trailer. That situation hadn’t changed when I moved jobs at the end off 2024. The paperwork it created was unprecedented. It was actually simpler to get goods from Asia than by container than it was getting goods from Ireland on RORO. Which pre Brexit was just as simple as moving goods around the UK. If you’d worked in it you’d know differently and the goods I was working with were relatively simple compared to shipping food, the paperwork those guys have to do now is staggering.The scramble was pre-Brexit...
The 'and related workers' part is important because this includes the private sector. You're presenting the 50k as if it is part of the 120k growth, it's not. A few examples of department increases post-Brexit:
- Ofgem, 165% increase in headcount (1.4k)
- Office of Qualifications and Examinations Regulation, 75% increase
- Housing, Communities and Local Government, 60% increase (1.8k)
- Home Office, 51% (17k)
- Scottish Government, 42% increase (8.2k)
- National Crime Agency, 37% (1.6)
- Justice department, 28% (21k)
- Health and Social Care, 32% (2.6k)
- Work and Pensions, 16% (13k)
That's already over half the increase in the civil service and this list isn't exhaustive. By contrast, HMRC's headcount was only up 2% (1.6k) and the Department for Business and Trade was down by 25% (-3k). Two of the most important departments for customs "Brexit" matters. In fairness, there are increases in statistics offices, the foreign office and the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. The latter will be driven by Brexit and Net Zero policies combined.
The public sector growth is up year on year, is that still because of Brexit?
This is true. However, what you’ve described is work undertaken by the private sector, not civil servants.It really wasn’t, we were woefully short of customs officers, administrators (that’s what I mean by related workers) and indeed the infrastructure. It was a complete clusterfuck. We wasn’t even ready to leave at the end of the transition period let alone in Jan 2020. It was an absolute joke and speaking as someone involved in import and export for my job during that period I can’t begin to tell you how difficult it became. We were having to do things like pay for an entire artic trailer to move a couple of pallets of hazardous goods because it was just too complicated in bureaucracy to get a carrier move a mix load of hazardous so they would simply just refuse the job then have trailers stuck at ports waiting for paperwork to be sorted. You had to pay for the whole trailer and only move one hazardous class per trailer. That situation hadn’t changed when I moved jobs at the end off 2024. The paperwork it created was unprecedented. It was actually simpler to get goods from Asia than by container than it was getting goods from Ireland on RORO. Which pre Brexit was just as simple as moving goods around the UK. If you’d worked in it you’d know differently and the goods I was working with were relatively simple compared to shipping food, the paperwork those guys have to do now is staggering.
@Sky Blue Pete can you confirm how many chickens they've put in your office?This is true. However, what you’ve described is work undertaken by the private sector, not civil servants.
As outlined previously, HMRC’s headcount increases was poultry considering Brexit and these are the people who enforce everything you described. Likewise, the Department for Business and Trade headcount decreased and these are experts on trade deals and so on that private businesses rely on for advice.
Your 50k for customs officers and administrators rings true for the private sector, not the civil service.
I know import/export procedures and FTAs very well.
Sometimes you reread a post, notice a grammar mistakes and just cringe…@Sky Blue Pete can you confirm how many chickens they've put in your office?
You've done some absolute bangers in the past year alone, keep it coming!Sometimes you reread a post, notice a grammar mistakes and just cringe…
At this point, you’ve got to consider the possibility it’s deliberate…You've done some absolute bangers in the past year alone, keep it coming!
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