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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (16 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 6:49 PM
  • #55,371
SBAndy said:
Or, quite simply, the truth in a practical sense. She didn’t own another property. Her child’s trust did. Policitian not being across the minutiae of tax policy isn’t a fun story tho.
Click to expand...

She agreed with the council in Hove to pay council tax as a second property
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 6:51 PM
  • #55,372
shmmeee said:
Again Zahawi avoided paying tax on tens of millions over years by setting up off shore companies and threatening anyone who investigated until the HMRC caught up with him. Rayner took advice on a non-standard living situation paid what she was told and when told that was wrong paid some more. Only a simpleton or someone not arguing in good faith would pretend they’re the same.

You lot on the right always try this because you think secretly the left wants less taxes as well and are being hypocrites so you’ll twist anything to fit that narrative but any honest reading just doesn’t add up like that here. Rayner has not tried to avoid tax on anything like the scale the average Tory did. You just don’t like her.
Click to expand...

So from not avoiding tax at all it’s now “not tried to avoid tax anything like the average Tory did”

Cool defence that
 
C

CovValleyBoy

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 6:52 PM
  • #55,373
Wouldn't it of been a lovely breath of fresh air if Dep PM Raynor had paid £70K despite only a £30K liability & was instead due a £40K rebate.

Now that would of been news !
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

SBAndy

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 7:05 PM
  • #55,374
Grendel said:
She agreed with the council in Hove to pay council tax as a second property
Click to expand...

Can pay council tax on 2 properties despite only owning one as far as I’m aware.

I should just set out that I’m not condoning it but I’m not of the belief, as MMM seems to be, that this is some mad aggressive tax planning. Just think it’s a bit of a fuck-up.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 7:19 PM
  • #55,375
SBAndy said:
Can pay council tax on 2 properties despite only owning one as far as I’m aware.

I should just set out that I’m not condoning it but I’m not of the belief, as MMM seems to be, that this is some mad aggressive tax planning. Just think it’s a bit of a fuck-up.
Click to expand...

Why would anyone put a house in a discretionary trust unless it was to benefit from a tax avoidance?
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 7:57 PM
  • #55,376
SBAndy said:
Can pay council tax on 2 properties despite only owning one as far as I’m aware.

I should just set out that I’m not condoning it but I’m not of the belief, as MMM seems to be, that this is some mad aggressive tax planning. Just think it’s a bit of a fuck-up.
Click to expand...

Yeah, she probably has (had!) designs on being PM. I don't think she is stupid enough to risk it all over some stamp duty.

She knows full well what the press are like. She knows full well the things she's said about Tory ministers resigning over various issues. She would know that any avoidance of tax, intentional or not, would kill her career.

I think it was a genuine error, that obviously looks worse given her position and will cost her her job.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 7:58 PM
  • #55,377
Grendel said:
Why would anyone put a house in a discretionary trust unless it was to benefit from a tax avoidance?
Click to expand...

Loads of reasons, particularly given their son is disabled.

Mostly about protecting him financially and giving him some security.
 
Reactions: SBAndy, Grendel and Sky Blue Pete

SIR ERNIE

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 8:04 PM
  • #55,378
shmmeee said:
Do you understand literally anything about how this country works or is it all just a jumble of US politics tweets in there?
Click to expand...

Oooo you're really hurting aren't you.
 
S

StrettoBoy

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 8:10 PM
  • #55,379
SBAndy said:
Or, quite simply, the truth in a practical sense. She didn’t own another property. Her child’s trust did. Policitian not being across the minutiae of tax policy isn’t a fun story tho.
Click to expand...

Shoosmiths, who set up the trust, are a large and very reputable law firm. I would be astonished if they didn't advise AR, as settlor, that she was deemed to have retained an interest in the property.
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 8:15 PM
  • #55,380

Former Conservative minister Nadine Dorries defects to Reform UK

The ex-MP told the Daily Mail the Tory Party was dead and its members now "need to think the unthinkable".
www.bbc.co.uk

some good LOLs reading that, vacuous knobhead.
 
S

StrettoBoy

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 8:17 PM
  • #55,381
Grendel said:
She agreed with the council in Hove to pay council tax as a second property
Click to expand...

Claiming, for council tax purposes, that the Manchester property was her main home and for SDLT purposes that it was Hove doesn't pass the sniff test, especially as it is likely to be the grace and favour apartment in London.

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive".
 

mmttww

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 8:17 PM
  • #55,382

Starmer refuses to say if he will sack Rayner if she broke rules

The PM's standards adviser is investigating if Rayner breached the ministerial code after underpaying stamp duty.
www.bbc.co.uk

and listening to this live was a living facepalm. All he had to say was 'I'll listen to what the ethics fella says and make a decision', he just waffled for five mins.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 8:32 PM
  • #55,383
PVA said:
Loads of reasons, particularly given their son is disabled.

Mostly about protecting him financially and giving him some security.
Click to expand...

She extracted £165k from it to buy the second home. Surely that home offers security?

She has 3 children
 
Reactions: Mucca Mad Boys

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 8:42 PM
  • #55,384
PVA said:
Yeah, she probably has (had!) designs on being PM. I don't think she is stupid enough to risk it all over some stamp duty.
Click to expand...
Well.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 8:53 PM
  • #55,385
SBAndy said:
Or, quite simply, the truth in a practical sense. She didn’t own another property. Her child’s trust did. Policitian not being across the minutiae of tax policy isn’t a fun story tho.
Click to expand...

The guidance is on HMRC. If your child owns a property, for stamp duty purposes you are the owner of it. Rayner was

She knew what she was doing, she sold her share in a property preemptively to claim she only owned one property.

Let’s be honest, if it was a Tory politician, we’d all be damning and assume they knew what they were doing. If anything, it’s classist/sexist to assume Rayner didn’t actually know what she was doing.

She’s a politician in a privileged position, she knew what she was doing because she has the best legal advice on hand.
 
Reactions: StrettoBoy

SBAndy

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 8:53 PM
  • #55,386
Grendel said:
She extracted £165k from it to buy the second home. Surely that home offers security?

She has 3 children
Click to expand...

If you take her at face value, the Manchester home has been modified to cater for his disability. Hence the reason they have this nesting arrangement and the perceived need to ensure he has right to remain should anything happen to either/both of them.

Why the other property needs to be in Brighton I have no idea. But that’s a separate story.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 8:56 PM
  • #55,387
StrettoBoy said:
I told my wife the other day what I thought had happened and it is looking increasingly likely that I was correct.

I reckon the Licensed Conveyancers will have completed the SDLT return and in doing so will have asked AR if she owned any other properties and she told them that she didn't. That could have been a deliberate attempt to evade tax, which is fraud, or a stupid error.
Click to expand...
I think she misled her solicitors personally. That’s my ‘gut feeling’.

In fairness, there are exemptions out there for guardians of disabled children so there may have been a reason to believe an exemption could be claimed. However, there’s no evidence right now where she’s declared this to authorities/legal counsel.

Again, the UK has be of the most complicated tax systems and Rayner is one of many voices looking to further complicate this tax code. Therefore, there’s a certain irony to that.
 
Reactions: StrettoBoy

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 9:23 PM
  • #55,388
SBAndy said:
If you take her at face value, the Manchester home has been modified to cater for his disability. Hence the reason they have this nesting arrangement and the perceived need to ensure he has right to remain should anything happen to either/both of them.

Why the other property needs to be in Brighton I have no idea. But that’s a separate story.
Click to expand...

Then surely gift it rather than a trust set up for the purpose of allowing both parties to freely withdraw income?
 
Reactions: Mucca Mad Boys

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 9:27 PM
  • #55,389
It’s the right wing press gunning for her!

‘It’s a disgrace’: Rayner’s constituents call for her resignation after stamp duty row

In Ashton-under-Lyne there is little sympathy for the deputy prime minister’s tax troubles
www.theguardian.com
 
Reactions: StrettoBoy and Mucca Mad Boys

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 9:37 PM
  • #55,390
Grendel said:
It’s the right wing press gunning for her!

‘It’s a disgrace’: Rayner’s constituents call for her resignation after stamp duty row

In Ashton-under-Lyne there is little sympathy for the deputy prime minister’s tax troubles
www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
“Right wing conspiracy”

Judging by the voting habits of Hove, I doubt the graffiti artists of Rayner’s home are right wingers. They could be, but an equal chance they’re ‘eco-populist’ Green voters who disdain tax evaders.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 9:39 PM
  • #55,391
Grendel said:
She extracted £165k from it to buy the second home. Surely that home offers security?

She has 3 children
Click to expand...

Discretionary trusts are not tax efficient and are not used to save tax.

The whole point of them is security and protection for family.
 
Reactions: Grendel

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 9:58 PM
  • #55,392
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Examples please.
Click to expand...
Why do you insist on examples all the time, they're all over the news.
 

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 9:59 PM
  • #55,393
shmmeee said:
And she is paying the right amount of tax. She got advice. Paid the amount she was told. Got told the advice was wrong. Got new advice. Paid the new amount.

At no point has she tried to avoid tax. Read the statement and tell me at what point exactly you think she intentionally avoided tax.

As I said anyone who has had kids through divorce knows the question of “what’s your primary address” isn’t simple and consistent especially with a nesting arrangement like she had.
Click to expand...
Delusional
 

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 10:02 PM
  • #55,394

Angela Rayner's conveyancers deny giving tax advice – report

In a revelation that could well sink the Housing Secretary over the Stamp Duty row, the conveyancing firm has contradicted Angela Rayner's claims that they gave her tax advice.
share.google
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Yesterday at 10:45 PM
  • #55,395
PVA said:
Discretionary trusts are not tax efficient and are not used to save tax.

The whole point of them is security and protection for family.
Click to expand...

Er they are actually for that. Pensions are placed in such trusts so IHT isn’t paid on death when distributed to families.

How does it protect the family? From what?
 
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