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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (28 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 26, 2025
  • #49,771
Grendel said:
How are the Labour government performing so far do you think?
Click to expand...

The welfare cuts stinks, it's terrible.

Until then, they were doing fine. Not great, just alright - some good, some bad.
 
Reactions: MalcSB and shmmeee
M

MickM

Active Member
  • Mar 26, 2025
  • #49,772
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Reading his case I think he would score pretty high on the ‘points’ system so shouldn’t be impacted?
Click to expand...
He could gain
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 26, 2025
  • #49,773
PVA said:
The welfare cuts stinks, it's terrible.

Until then, they were doing fine. Not great, just alright - some good, some bad.
Click to expand...

They were cutting welfare from day one.

Growth targets are in tatters. Economy is flatlining.

Whwt have they done that’s improved anything?
 
Reactions: MalcSB
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 26, 2025
  • #49,774
PVA said:
The welfare cuts stinks, it's terrible.

Until then, they were doing fine. Not great, just alright - some good, some bad.
Click to expand...
What was good?
 
Reactions: MalcSB, Sick Boy and Grendel

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 26, 2025
  • #49,775
Grendel said:
They were cutting welfare from day one.

Growth targets are in tatters. Economy is flatlining.

Whwt have they done that’s improved anything?
Click to expand...
Reform are the guys to unite the country
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 26, 2025
  • #49,776
Brighton Sky Blue said:
What was good?
Click to expand...

Minimum wage increase
Planning reform/more houses
Ended the doctors strikes
Free school breakfasts
Cancelled Rwanda
Workers rights
NHS waiting lists down
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 26, 2025
  • #49,777
PVA said:
Minimum wage increase
Planning reform/more houses
Ended the doctors strikes
Free school breakfasts
Cancelled Rwanda
Workers rights
NHS waiting lists down
Click to expand...
You left out the moon pie
 
Reactions: Grendel

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 26, 2025
  • #49,778
PVA said:
Minimum wage increase
Planning reform/more houses
Ended the doctors strikes
Free school breakfasts
Cancelled Rwanda
Workers rights
NHS waiting lists down
Click to expand...

You’re easy to please. Half of those things haven’t been implemented and the public sector unions are already grumbling for pay increases linked to inflation which isn’t sustainable.
 

SBAndy

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 26, 2025
  • #49,779
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Profit and cash are completely different. And they can still use their mark-up to do that reinvesting. If they're good enough then they'll make enough sales or a large enough mark-up to do so. If they don't, then maybe that businesses isn't worthy of further investment. And as I said I'd had a tax free amount so small businesses would pay nothing, or next to nothing, anyway.

Considering what I've seen be allowed to be deductible against tax, there is a hell of a lot that isn't being 'reinvested in the business'.

And if anything it makes it easier to plan for the tax bill because you'll know what sales you've made and can set aside for it. Rather than having to wait until the end of the year to see what arbitrary profit figure comes out that you then need to pay a chunk of.
Click to expand...

It would effectively be making the person ‘adding the value’ responsible for the VAT. Interesting concept, if you then did away with VAT then we’d see major inflation but the difference to peoples’ incomes would cancel out a lot of that.

A thought that I’ve had today is round the idea of a wealth tax (either directly or via CGT/IHT/etc), but then offsetting it against lowering income tax. Wondering where the ‘sweet spot’ is there.
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 26, 2025
  • #49,780
Mucca Mad Boys said:
You’re easy to please. Half of those things haven’t been implemented and the public sector unions are already grumbling for pay increases linked to inflation which isn’t sustainable.
Click to expand...
If pay keeping up with inflation is unsustainable then you've got a failing country. That should be the minimum expectation, not be considered an over the top demand by unions.
 
Reactions: duffer

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,781
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
If pay keeping up with inflation is unsustainable then you've got a failing country. That should be the minimum expectation, not be considered an over the top demand by unions.
Click to expand...

That isn’t how the real world works. The first priority should be keeping inflation in check because that’s the biggest tax on people and businesses. Which often means controlling government spending…
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,782
SBAndy said:
It would effectively be making the person ‘adding the value’ responsible for the VAT. Interesting concept, if you then did away with VAT then we’d see major inflation but the difference to peoples’ incomes would cancel out a lot of that.

A thought that I’ve had today is round the idea of a wealth tax (either directly or via CGT/IHT/etc), but then offsetting it against lowering income tax. Wondering where the ‘sweet spot’ is there.
Click to expand...

Wealth taxes are not a new idea and haven’t raised the sums expected wherever they’ve been implemented.

Labour were elected in 1970s to introduce a wealth tax and backed out because it’s administratively difficult and politically poisonous. It almost definitely will not raise the oft quoted £24bn.

All it will do is force out more of our highest tax payers and considering the top 1% lays around 30% of our tax revenues… it’s not a good idea to drive these people out because the burden needs to be filled by ordinary people.

Gary Stevenson is the big champion of wealth taxes in this country and here he is in action in debate:

 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,783
Mucca Mad Boys said:
That isn’t how the real world works. The first priority should be keeping inflation in check because that’s the biggest tax on people and businesses. Which often means controlling government spending…
Click to expand...
So keep inflation in check by effectively paying workers less. Which means they can't by as much stuff as before. So businesses either sell less or have to reduce prices (which admittedly would control inflation) to maintain the number of sales, both of which really hinder growth.

Good plan!
 
Reactions: Mucca Mad Boys

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,784
At this point, Starmer should do what’s best for the country and aim for the UK to have a deal with the EU that’s as close to the Swiss model as possible.

Of course he won’t do that though because his own political ambitions are more important. A proper leader would highlight the benefits and face down those against it.

Instead, he’ll probably end up signing a one-sided trade deal with Trump that has next to no benefit to the UK.
 
Reactions: fernandopartridge
C

CovValleyBoy

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,785
Bring back the Romans.
HS2 would have trains on it by now.
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,786
CovValleyBoy said:
Bring back the Romans.
HS2 would have trains on it by now.
Click to expand...
Just get the Chinese or Japanese on it, who'd have thought Byng was right.
 

SBAndy

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,787
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Wealth taxes are not a new idea and haven’t raised the sums expected wherever they’ve been implemented.

Labour were elected in 1970s to introduce a wealth tax and backed out because it’s administratively difficult and politically poisonous. It almost definitely will not raise the oft quoted £24bn.

All it will do is force out more of our highest tax payers and considering the top 1% lays around 30% of our tax revenues… it’s not a good idea to drive these people out because the burden needs to be filled by ordinary people.

Gary Stevenson is the big champion of wealth taxes in this country and here he is in action in debate:

Click to expand...

The ‘top 1% pays 30%’ reference is to do with income tax, hence why I posed whether that could be reduced if we increased other areas of taxation.
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,788
Grendel said:
Lee you don’t understand. This government respects your desire to work and become self sufficient. Be grateful and welcome to a world of opportunity.

‘I could end up homeless’: weighing the damage after Rachel Reeves’s welfare cuts

A disabled man considers the potential impact that losing disability benefits could have on his life
www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
Jobs available for Lee provided by the Labour government

Immediate draft into Zelensky’s army
Organising all the minister freebies - may require 2 people to keep on top of
 
Reactions: Sick Boy

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,789
Mucca Mad Boys said:
The first priority should be keeping inflation in check because that’s the biggest tax on people and businesses. Which often means controlling government spending…
Click to expand...
Kind of feels like you've just woken up from a 15 year coma and think you've come up with a plan that hasn't just been implemented for decades and gutted public services and caused a considerable drop in the standard of living for the majority.

What makes you think more of the same will have the desired result?
 
Reactions: duffer and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,790
Seems like this lot are doing a great job of getting the scroungers back out to work. I might vote Labour next time
 
Reactions: SkyBlueDom26

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,791
Mucca Mad Boys said:
That isn’t how the real world works. The first priority should be keeping inflation in check because that’s the biggest tax on people and businesses. Which often means controlling government spending…
Click to expand...
Inflation isn't a tax, is it?
 

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,792
SBAndy said:
The ‘top 1% pays 30%’ reference is to do with income tax, hence why I posed whether that could be reduced if we increased other areas of taxation.
Click to expand...
The fact that this is the case shows exactly where the problem is. There is far too much inequality and the government (and increasingly voluntary organisations) have to try in vain to sort out the mess this inevitably leads behind for the vast majority of society.

If I have a massive banquet for myself and a tiny number of select friends yet there are thousands outside who are starving, the starving people aren't the ones causing the problem.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,793
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
The fact that this is the case shows exactly where the problem is. There is far too much inequality and the government (and increasingly voluntary organisations) have to try in vain to sort out the mess this inevitably leads behind for the vast majority of society.

If I have a massive banquet for myself and a tiny number of select friends yet there are thousands outside who are starving, the starving people aren't the ones causing the problem.
Click to expand...
Bollocks, they'd take some pleasure away from me enjoying my Foie Gras, Caviar and bottles of Crystal. Peasants.
 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,794
rob9872 said:
Bollocks, they'd take some pleasure away from me enjoying my Foie Gras, Caviar and bottles of Crystal. Peasants.
Click to expand...

It's Cristal, pauper!
 
Reactions: duffer and rob9872
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,795
MalcSB said:
Inflation isn't a tax, is it?
Click to expand...
I think it is unfortunately.
 

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,796
SBAndy said:
The ‘top 1% pays 30%’ reference is to do with income tax, hence why I posed whether that could be reduced if we increased other areas of taxation.
Click to expand...

Then just increase income tax/capital gains, which imo is also a bad idea.

With wealth taxes, you’re taxing something intangible because ‘wealth’ is unrealised. For example, how would homeowners cope if they were taxed on their property ?

It also does not consider things like stocks and shares (the is including in the £24bn figure) which go up and down so how can you tax it? In my own portfolio, the value of my US stocks (S&P 500) went down around 15-20% from late Feb to mid-March. Logistically, how would you even tax that?

MalcSB said:
Inflation isn't a tax, is it?
Click to expand...

Not literally a tax.
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,797
wingy said:
I think it is unfortunately.
Click to expand...
In the context of government finances, I would take a tax to be this definition (Oxford Languages)

1) a compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions.
"higher taxes will dampen consumer spending"
Similar:
levy tariff duty toll excise impost contribution

There is an alternative definition which is not so related to government taking money of citizens to fund state functions

2) a strain or heavy demand.
"a heavy tax on the reader's attention"
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,798
MalcSB said:
In the context of government finances, I would take a tax to be this definition (Oxford Languages)

1) a compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions.
"higher taxes will dampen consumer spending"
Similar:
levy tariff duty toll excise impost contribution

There is an alternative definition which is not so related to government taking money of citizens to fund state functions

2) a strain or heavy demand.
"a heavy tax on the reader's attention"
Click to expand...
A filter then, simplistic possibly but a method that propels wealth to the top of the pile which is then used by those at the top to purchase more assets?
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,799
Mucca Mad Boys said:
Then just increase income tax/capital gains, which imo is also a bad idea.

With wealth taxes, you’re taxing something intangible because ‘wealth’ is unrealised. For example, how would homeowners cope if they were taxed on their property ?

It also does not consider things like stocks and shares (the is including in the £24bn figure) which go up and down so how can you tax it? In my own portfolio, the value of my US stocks (S&P 500) went down around 15-20% from late Feb to mid-March. Logistically, how would you even tax that?



Not literally a tax.
Click to expand...
Arguably homeowners are taxed on their property - council tax. Plus Stamp Duty when buying a new property as well as VAT on estate agents, solicitors and surveyors fees.

If the value of stocks and shares go down, either the amount of tax paid goes down proportionally - or no tax is paid as a loss has been incurred.

If inflation isn't literally a tax, don't call it one. There will always be some pedantic arsehole like me who will pick you up on it.

Inflation and pay rises are a bit chicken and egg - which comes first.

Increases in energy costs, broadband, mobile phone tariffs are not really a result of pay rises in those industries.
Increases in train fares may well be if large pay awards are made without compensating increases in productivity being part of the agreement.
 
Reactions: wingy

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,800
MalcSB said:
Inflation isn't a tax, is it?
Click to expand...
In effect it is. Inflation benefits those owning physical assets. Keeps the hoi poloi in their place.
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,801
Captain Dart said:
In effect it is. Inflation benefits those owning physical assets. Keeps the hoi poloi in their place.
Click to expand...
How does a tin of baked beans costing £1.40 benefit someone with physical assets?
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,802
MalcSB said:
How does a tin of baked beans costing £1.40 benefit someone with physical assets?
Click to expand...
They don't buy that rubbish, that's fodder for the hoi poloi.🫣
 
Reactions: Captain Dart and MalcSB

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,803
Hoi Poloi sound like it could be an exotic expensive bean.
 
Reactions: wingy

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,804
wingy said:
They don't buy that rubbish, that's fodder for the hoi poloi.🫣
Click to expand...
Lidl baked beans are ok and a lot cheaper than Heinz.
 
Reactions: wingy

rob9872

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 27, 2025
  • #49,805
Big Bob's Bastard Beans
 
Reactions: MalcSB
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