Do you want to discuss boring politics? (21 Viewers)

CCFCSteve · Aug 19, 2024

rob9872 said:
If it's a small consolation to you, I took my maths O'level in a comprehensive at 14 and passed (one of the youngest to still hold an actual O'level as we were the first GCSE year and I was youngest in the academic year, so it was only child geniuses who are younger).

Having said that I still maintain I would have benefitted from grammar school, as I believe I'd have been dragged along by the bootstraps of others rather than running with the crowd I did. Thankfully my family could never have afforded private education, which I am totally against (even for a Tory, yes I know!)

Two of my best mates went to grammar school and they both think it made a huge difference in their lives as neither is from wealthy families (one was from a single parent family). I was local comp but lucky it was a decent enough area. I’ve always liked the idea of grammar schools for kids from more disadvantaged backgrounds/those whose parents couldn’t afford private. It’s a massive social leveller

ps didn’t realise we had a child genius on SBT. You didn’t like antiques when you were young did you ?

MalcSB · Aug 19, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I worked in a school that went from ability setting to mixed ability classes and I think overall it was beneficial for both as the higher ability children generally bring up the lower ability ones. There is also a definite mentality to being in a ‘bottom set’ that encourages children to expect less of themselves.

The impact on higher ability children varies according to how well the teacher can differentiate. In my case, I tried to make the lessons challenging overall so that everyone still progressed. The research on grammars generally shows them to a) have a negative effect on nearby comps and b) exacerbates social inequality as wealthier parents can afford to get 11+ coaching for their kids.

My parents weren’t in the least wealthy - definitely working class. I had no coaching and was 10 when I passed my 11+.

You have identified potential benefits for lower ability children but absolutely none for higher ability children. This is what always seems to happen in any such discussion. The 11+ / grammar system was, in my view, good for bright children of working class parents (like me) and gave them (me) opportunities they (I) may well have otherwise missed.

Children of wealthy parents are always likely to have opportunities for additional support, regardless of their intellectual ability, such as extra tuition that the bright but less well off will not be able to afford. It could be argued that the grammar school system went some way to level that particular playing field.

rob9872 · Aug 19, 2024

CCFCSteve said:
Two of my best mates went to grammar school and they both think it made a huge difference in their lives as neither is from wealthy families (one was from a single parent family). I was local comp but lucky it was a decent enough area. I’ve always liked the idea of grammar schools for kids from more disadvantaged backgrounds/those whose parents couldn’t afford private. It’s a massive social leveller

ps didn’t realise we had a child genius on SBT. You didn’t like antiques when you were young did you ?

No antiques sorry (only my jokes these days). In fact watching the roadshow and guessing the value was about as close as I got! The one show I did always fancy was Countdown, but with the first prize being a 'set of leather bound dictionary's' that I didn't want and we didn't have the room to store, I never applied. Still tempted to apply now, but I'd be embarrassed losing in game one, most likely to a young kid myself, now that the boot is on the other foot!

MalcSB · Aug 19, 2024

rob9872 said:
Did you not find that the higher ability children who found the lesson easier, regressed or caused trouble waiting for those at the other end to catch up? There are many subjects that could easily accommodate, but particularly maths and the sciences I suppose I'm thinking of.

That’s exactly what happened to me - in a grammar school - as I “switched off” because of having to wait for others to catch up. I went from consistently in top 3 of the class to failing the O level.

rob9872 · Aug 19, 2024

MalcSB said:
My parents weren’t in the least wealthy - definitely working class. I had no coaching and was 10 when I passed my 11+.

You have identified potential benefits for lower ability children but absolutely none for higher ability children. This is what always seems to happen in any such discussion. The 11+ / grammar system was, in my view, good for bright children of working class parents (like me) and gave them (me) opportunities they (I) may well have otherwise missed.

Children of wealthy parents are always likely to have opportunities for additional support, regardless of their intellectual ability, such as extra tuition that the bright but less well off will not be able to afford. It could be argued that the grammar school system went some way to level that particular playing field.

Smaller class sizes too I think would always be the greater advantage (or it least it was 40 years ago when I would have started at grammar school). Most of my classes were 30+ kids.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 19, 2024

MalcSB said:
My parents weren’t in the least wealthy - definitely working class. I had no coaching and was 10 when I passed my 11+.

You have identified potential benefits for lower ability children but absolutely none for higher ability children. This is what always seems to happen in any such discussion. The 11+ / grammar system was, in my view, good for bright children of working class parents (like me) and gave them (me) opportunities they (I) may well have otherwise missed.

Children of wealthy parents are always likely to have opportunities for additional support, regardless of their intellectual ability, such as extra tuition that the bright but less well off will not be able to afford. It could be argued that the grammar school system went some way to level that particular playing field.

With respect, I am talking about grammars in 2024, not whenever you went to school. There have been longitudinal studies on this commissioned by the Tory government no less which state unambiguously what their impact is.

Grammars are not the answer, certainly not in deciding children’s futures at age 11 in any case. We know now that some people, myself included, don’t start achieving academically until later than that.

Maybe if education were taken seriously by governments instead of an after thought this wouldn’t be an issue at all. You have Rob above talking about wanting smaller class sizes while laughing at the parties who would make it happen, for example.

MalcSB · Aug 19, 2024

rob9872 said:
Smaller class sizes too I think would always be the greater advantage (or it least it was 40 years ago when I would have started at grammar school). Most of my classes were 30+ kids.

Smaller class sizes do help, although the results from a Chemistry A level class of 10 were less than impressive. Having said that, one went on to have a stellar career and ended up with a Damehood.

MalcSB · Aug 19, 2024

Brighton Sky Blue said:
With respect, I am talking about grammars in 2024, not whenever you went to school. There have been longitudinal studies on this commissioned by the Tory government no less which state unambiguously what their impact is.

Grammars are not the answer, certainly not in deciding children’s futures at age 11 in any case. We know now that some people, myself included, don’t start achieving academically until later than that.

Maybe if education were taken seriously by governments instead of an after thought this wouldn’t be an issue at all. You have Rob above talking about wanting smaller class sizes while laughing at the parties who would make it happen, for example.

I do recognise that some people start to achieve academically later in life. One of the things I liked about my job was being able to give people opportunities in later life to get some additional, and in some cases higher / degree level qualifications. At the grammar I attended back in the Jurassic period, there were opportunities for pupils with potential to transfer from the local high school.

Weren’t Blair’s top three priorities “education, education and education”.

VAT on private education is unlikely to help class sizes

MalcSB · Aug 19, 2024

rob9872 said:
Smaller class sizes too I think would always be the greater advantage (or it least it was 40 years ago when I would have started at grammar school). Most of my classes were 30+ kids.

59 years ago for me. Class sizes were about 30, total pupils probably only about 380. Never had chips or hot dogs on the school meal menu.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 19, 2024

rob9872 said:
Is the reverse not also true? As in those bright enough for grammars that end up in the mainstream, are held back by others they school with?

I hope it doesn't come across conceited, as I wouldn't change my schooling or friends I had, but they were basically dickheads (and arguably I was the biggest dickhead of them all), yet could comfortably have gone to a grammar and I'm certain I'd have been a much higher achiever if I had, rather than running with those who thought study was for whimps and playing football was much better.

There was a bit of an argument among my family with me. My grandparents wanted me to go to Bablake or Henry's, my mum wanted me to go to comprehensive.

In the end my mum won and I went to Woodlands. I don't doubt I would have seen many personal advantages had it been the other way way round, in terms of opportunities, achievement and even contacts. But at the same time the comprehensive has been instrumental in making me a more rounded person as I knew so many people from so many different backgrounds. Reasonably affluent kids from the posh parts of Earlsdon and Meriden, kids from council estate tower blocks and poorer parts of places like Canley. Kids from broken homes. Kids from Asian and African immigrant backgrounds. Bright kids. Kids with less intelligence. Troublemakers. Kids who wouldn't say boo to a goose. It made me appreciate the wide range of people that exist and the different ways to communicate with them best.

One thing that does seem to be quite prevalent with those that have privilege or a private education is they grow up with this sense of being better and treating others as beneath them. I fear had I had that I may have had a similar outlook and I'm so, so glad I don't.

Of course even at comprehensive we were split into ability groups at year 9 so I was still given an opportunity to achieve.

SwanLane · Aug 20, 2024

I live in the South East and there’s grammar schools round here. It’s just a circus.

The grammars are de facto private schools in some cases. People will move heaven and earth to get their kids in. One example is a guy who rented a flat for a year, simply to have an address in catchment for his kid. The flat was unoccupied throughout. Just one of countless similar stories I’ve heard over the years.

At the local primaries, kids are getting tuition to pass the 11+. There’s a whole industry around coaching and some families put their kids in from the age of 6.

If you’re a kid from a ‘normal’ background, it’s tough. House prices are ridiculous in catchment and the cost of this plus tuition means that most who attend are very well off or rich. The sports gear and school trips are expensive. You could easily feel like a fish out of water if you can’t keep up with the Joneses. And these schools are super focussed on results. If you’re struggling, you get left behind and stories abound of parents being pressurised to remove their kids to the local comps if their scores start slipping.

I’m sure it is good for some kids. Some grammars are more chilled than others and some of the comps are decent. I believe in streaming kids but telling most of them at 10 that they didn’t make the cut doesn’t seem like a good move to me. You can do right by the top 30% without planting ‘failure’ seeds in the other 70%. And that’s before you get into how the better off are gaming the system.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 20, 2024

To be quite honest, despite being privately educated myself I doubt I would send a child to one now. For the amount of money involved, it simply isn’t the value for money it may have been in the past. Private schools have been raising fees at greater rates than inflation (and teacher salaries) for years now.

An excellent comp or grammar can get you similar (or better) outcomes for no cost. Private schools can’t afford to accept people just on merit or they wouldn’t have enough business. We’d be more likely to put the money towards university (if they wanted to go), so they’d be free of student debt and avoids them paying a graduate tax for 35-40 years.

SkyBlueCharlie9 · Aug 20, 2024

I live in Kent and my 2 kids are currently at single sex grammar schools. Not great and rich parents panic and tutor kids at aged 10. Local comprehensive and free schools suffer as a result and kids are pigeon holed a bit and many feel inferior. Undoudetedly the grammars suited my kids educationally but not socially and I think it is a really tough dilema. Very Tory area though and they would die to protect it. Still think my school Woodlands was better model with movement between sets, although wish it had been mixed sexes to replicate the real world.
To be fair my sons grammar school is football mad (pretends to be rugby focussed) and when Cov played Maidstone in cup, my son said about 100+ lads signed out at lunchtime to go to match, ( he was only Cov fan )

wingy · Aug 20, 2024

SkyBlueCharlie9 said:
I live in Kent and my 2 kids are currently at single sex grammar schools. Not great and rich parents panic and tutor kids at aged 10. Local comprehensive and free schools suffer as a result and kids are pigeon holed a bit and many feel inferior. Undoudetedly the grammars suited my kids educationally but not socially and I think it is a really tough dilema. Very Tory area though and they would die to protect it. Still think my school Woodlands was better model with movement between sets, although wish it had been mixed sexes to replicate the real world.
To be fair my sons grammar school is football mad (pretends to be rugby focussed) and when Cov played Maidstone in cup, my son said about 100+ lads signed out at lunchtime to go to match, ( he was only Cov fan )

A dilemma is correct, been there done from infancy, but only that,moved into mainstream and the outcome is mixed, not academically mind you absolute star, but probably the imprint on attitude to the next generation, not at all bothered to be as pushy when considering her own offspring, although I think a little cajoling was taken on board about 18 months back!

Grendel · Aug 20, 2024

SkyBlueCharlie9 said:
I live in Kent and my 2 kids are currently at single sex grammar schools. Not great and rich parents panic and tutor kids at aged 10. Local comprehensive and free schools suffer as a result and kids are pigeon holed a bit and many feel inferior. Undoudetedly the grammars suited my kids educationally but not socially and I think it is a really tough dilema. Very Tory area though and they would die to protect it. Still think my school Woodlands was better model with movement between sets, although wish it had been mixed sexes to replicate the real world.
To be fair my sons grammar school is football mad (pretends to be rugby focussed) and when Cov played Maidstone in cup, my son said about 100+ lads signed out at lunchtime to go to match, ( he was only Cov fan )

Yeah I bet it was a really tough call to select the superior school and not mix with the plebs Charles.

rob9872 · Aug 20, 2024

SkyBlueCharlie9 said:
I live in Kent and my 2 kids are currently at single sex grammar schools. Not great and rich parents panic and tutor kids at aged 10. Local comprehensive and free schools suffer as a result and kids are pigeon holed a bit and many feel inferior. Undoudetedly the grammars suited my kids educationally but not socially and I think it is a really tough dilema. Very Tory area though and they would die to protect it. Still think my school Woodlands was better model with movement between sets, although wish it had been mixed sexes to replicate the real world.
To be fair my sons grammar school is football mad (pretends to be rugby focussed) and when Cov played Maidstone in cup, my son said about 100+ lads signed out at lunchtime to go to match, ( he was only Cov fan )

Oh goody, a champagne socialist. My favourite type of cu nt!

wingy · Aug 20, 2024

They're coming for you charlie!
Are we talking about VAT being applied on fees he's gonna have to pay which he doesn't appear to be objecting?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Aug 20, 2024

Could never have seen this coming. Starmer is going to last five minutes at this rate.

HMP Nottingham inmates reoffending after early release - watchdog

Inspectors found HMP Nottingham was under "considerable pressure" due to the early release scheme.

www.bbc.co.uk

Sky Blue Pete · Aug 20, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
Could never have seen this coming. Starmer is going to last five minutes at this rate.

HMP Nottingham inmates reoffending after early release - watchdog

Inspectors found HMP Nottingham was under "considerable pressure" due to the early release scheme.

www.bbc.co.uk

How’s that on starmer
Tories policy
Tories were in power when released
Story shared when starmer in power
Starmers fault huh!!!!

Im gobsmacked so many are so blind to what happens
No one gives a shit about an ex prisoner many leave with no money no home no friends and no family and then we go proper wrongun was recalled
Wtaf do we expect

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Aug 20, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
How’s that on starmer
Tories policy
Tories were in power when released
Story shared when starmer in power
Starmers fault huh!!!!

Im gobsmacked so many are so blind to what happens
No one gives a shit about an ex prisoner many leave with no money no home no friends and no family and then we go proper wrongun was recalled
Wtaf do we expect

I suggest you read the news from the last couple of days regarding what the government are going to do, rather than taking all of your insights from here.

Sky Blue Pete · Aug 20, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
I suggest you read the news from the last couple of days regarding what the government are going to do, rather than taking all of your insights from here.

This story is about previous releases though
I recognise it’s been extended

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Aug 20, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
This story is about previous releases though
I recognise it’s been extended

So, prisoners are suddenly not going to reoffend now there is a new government then?

If you cannot draw the link then I really cannot help you. It looks like you are just playing stupid though.

wingy · Aug 20, 2024

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
So, prisoners are suddenly not going to reoffend now there is a new government then?

If you cannot draw the link then I really cannot help you. It looks like you are just playing stupid though.

It must be about class of criminal crime then?

SkyBlueCharlie9 · Aug 20, 2024

Tory voters complaining too many people in prison.....

shmmeee · Aug 20, 2024

shmmeee said:
.

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 said:
So, prisoners are suddenly not going to reoffend now there is a new government then?

If you cannot draw the link then I really cannot help you. It looks like you are just playing stupid though.

they aren’t letting them out for lols. We don’t have any prison spaces.

SkyBlueCharlie9 · Aug 20, 2024

rob9872 said:
Oh goody, a champagne socialist. My favourite type of cu nt!

Lovely anglo-saxon expression funnily enough relating to a discussion on education.
BTW grammar schools are free mate and I've also worked in public sector for 25 years so money in our family is hardly in ambundance.... but crack on with the insults and generalisations.

nicksar · Aug 20, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
How’s that on starmer
Tories policy
Tories were in power when released
Story shared when starmer in power
Starmers fault huh!!!!

Im gobsmacked so many are so blind to what happens
No one gives a shit about an ex prisoner many leave with no money no home no friends and no family and then we go proper wrongun was recalled
Wtaf do we expect

I've mentioned it before but one of my lifelong best friends served a long prison sentence, the last three years were in Nottingham prison...he left prison with a trade and a job to go to... totally rehabilitated and has done incredibly well in life.
It may be very different nowadays tbf but all the recent statistics show that the longer the sentence served the less the chance of re-offending... releasing prisoners early and without a very good post prison support network is doomed to fail....and it appears that the support just doesn't exist.

Grendel · Aug 20, 2024

SkyBlueCharlie9 said:
Tory voters complaining too many people in prison.....

Labour voters sending their children to selective education schools....

wingy · Aug 20, 2024

tit for tat we go!
How many as % recieving it free?

Earlsdon_Skyblue1 · Aug 20, 2024

SkyBlueCharlie9 said:
Tory voters complaining too many people in prison.....

I didn't vote Tory, Charles.

Sky Blue Pete · Aug 20, 2024

nicksar said:
I've mentioned it before but one of my lifelong best friends served a long prison sentence, the last three years were in Nottingham prison...he left prison with a trade and a job to go to... totally rehabilitated and has done incredibly well in life.
It may be very different nowadays tbf but all the recent statistics show that the longer the sentence served the less the chance of re-offending... releasing prisoners early and without a very good post prison support network is doomed to fail....and it appears that the support just doesn't exist.

Mine too and his story is very similar and I’m very proud of him for how he’s put his life back together but it’s tiny numbers who manage to do that
Did you stick by him? Proud of you doing that too as that’s one of the key factors of having a successful reintroduction to life outside of prison.

nicksar · Aug 20, 2024

Sky Blue Pete said:
Mine too and his story is very similar and I’m very proud of him for how he’s put his life back together but it’s tiny numbers who manage to do that
Did you stick by him? Proud of you doing that too as that’s one of the key factors of having a successful reintroduction to life outside of prison.

I did Pete,he served his sentence across three prison's and wrote to each other regularly,I also visited him every few months....we remain close friends and exchange WhatsApp messages frequently.

Sky Blue Pete · Aug 20, 2024

nicksar said:
I did Pete,he served his sentence across three prison's and wrote to each other regularly,I also visited him every few months....we remain close friends and exchange WhatsApp messages frequently.

Good for you

SkyBlueCharlie9 · Aug 21, 2024

Grendel said:
Labour voters sending their children to selective education schools....

No choice in this area and kids were told they are the be all and end all by the system, so they wanted to go. I don't think it's healthy in longer term for all kids. As a floating voter I may have voted Labour purely to oust the Tory government. Fat lot of good that did round here!

shmmeee · Aug 21, 2024

Grendel said:
Labour voters sending their children to selective education schools....

Tory voters who use roads….

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