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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (20 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,071
shmmeee said:
Hot take: Reeves will fuck Starmer like Sunak fucked Johnson.
Click to expand...
Starmer will keep his socks on. In all seriousness, this is the fear some of us had about Starmer, that he really would govern as he campaigned and not perform the major surgery the country needs.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,072
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Starmer will keep his socks on. In all seriousness, this is the fear some of us had about Starmer, that he really would govern as he campaigned and not perform the major surgery the country needs.
Click to expand...

Its not just spending. They’re not going far enough on planning either. Just don’t think they’ll deliver on anything without an attitude change. And lack of delivery has killed the last four govts.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,073
shmmeee said:
Its not just spending. They’re not going far enough on planning either. Just don’t think they’ll deliver on anything without an attitude change. And lack of delivery has killed the last four govts.
Click to expand...
Well, the last four didn’t deliver because they ideologically believe in shrinking the state and diverting wealth to people who already have it.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,074
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Well, the last four didn’t deliver because they ideologically believe in shrinking the state and diverting wealth to people who already have it.
Click to expand...

They didn’t deliver on their own terms. No one was voting Tory hoping for a socialist republic mate.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,075
shmmeee said:
Hot take: Reeves will fuck Starmer like Sunak fucked Johnson.
Click to expand...
This is the problem with having an entirely empty vessel as prime minister
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,076
fernandopartridge said:
This is the problem with having an entirely empty vessel as prime minister
Click to expand...

This is the problem with the Treasury and having a treasury brained chancellor.
 
Reactions: Grendel and SIR ERNIE

tisza

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,077
Brighton Sky Blue said:
‘A government of service’

Chancellor Rachel Reeves to axe projects after review of finances

Chancellor to say previous government covered up shortfalls, but the Tories say she is paving way for tax rises.
www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...
Same tune with every election. Opposition promises to fix things but then claims there isn't the money.
This time Labour didn't really have to do any sums as they were always going to walk the election as people just sick of Conservatives.
Every party says they'll sort out public sector waste - none succeed that well.
Every recent govt has overspent on external consultants - a bloated, increasingly inefficient Civil Service often to blame for that.
Taxes obviously going up.
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve

SIR ERNIE

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,078
tisza said:
Same tune with every election. Opposition promises to fix things but then claims there isn't the money.
This time Labour didn't really have to do any sums as they were always going to walk the election as people just sick of Conservatives.
Every party says they'll sort out public sector waste - none succeed that well.
Every recent govt has overspent on external consultants - a bloated, increasingly inefficient Civil Service often to blame for that.
Taxes obviously going up.
Click to expand...
Last month:
Real change with Labour, Fully costed plans.

This month:
No change, can't afford it.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,079
So by the end of their term we'll be in to 18/19 years of austerity, in the 6th biggest economy in the world where the top percentile keep increasing their wealth.
In the words of Johnny Rotten, 'ever had the feeling you've been cheated?'.
 
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,080
clint van damme said:
So by the end of their term we'll be in to 18/19 years of austerity, in the 6th biggest economy in the world where the top percentile keep increasing their wealth.
In the words of Johnny Rotten, 'ever had the feeling you've been cheated?'.
Click to expand...
But at least a strong currency?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,081
SIR ERNIE said:
Last month:
Real change with Labour, Fully costed plans.

This month:
No change, can't afford it.
Click to expand...

They think it makes them look strong and serious. Same as the 2CB policy.

At some point you’ve got to govern and not just virtue signal.
 
Reactions: tisza

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,082
shmmeee said:
This is the problem with the Treasury and having a treasury brained chancellor.
Click to expand...

I hate to say I told you so
 
Reactions: Nick

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,083
tisza said:
Same tune with every election. Opposition promises to fix things but then claims there isn't the money.
This time Labour didn't really have to do any sums as they were always going to walk the election as people just sick of Conservatives.
Every party says they'll sort out public sector waste - none succeed that well.
Every recent govt has overspent on external consultants - a bloated, increasingly inefficient Civil Service often to blame for that.
Taxes obviously going up.
Click to expand...

The civil service buys more and more consultancy because it has less and less of its own resource.
 
Reactions: Diogenes and wingy

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,084
So to sum it up, when people were on here getting excited about a new dawn, nothing is actually going to change?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,085
Nick said:
So to sum it up, when people were on here getting excited about a new dawn, nothing is actually going to change?
Click to expand...
Well, two people were.
 

Evo1883

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,086
 
Reactions: Diogenes, CCFCSteve, clint van damme and 1 other person
W

wingy

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,087
Evo1883 said:
Click to expand...
Could never achieve that level of sheen!
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,088
fernandopartridge said:
I hate to say I told you so
Click to expand...

Still better on the Tories by a lot, so still the right govt. but such a shame to see them shoot themselves in the foot. I think Reeves really believes this stuff. Proof will be in the pudding but as the saying goes if you do what you’ve always done you’ll get what you always got. I don’t see a route to growth that doesn’t include infrastructure investment.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,089
shmmeee said:
Still better on the Tories by a lot, so still the right govt. but such a shame to see them shoot themselves in the foot. I think Reeves really believes this stuff. Proof will be in the pudding but as the saying goes if you do what you’ve always done you’ll get what you always got. I don’t see a route to growth that doesn’t include infrastructure investment.
Click to expand...

Agreed. The cuts to the other projects shrink the economy - surely she knows this?

The proposal to cut the HS2 link to Euston is just batty.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer, wingy, shmmeee and 1 other person
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,090
Still very early days and got to give them the term to see what improvements are made. I still think just the stability will lead to some growth and minor improvement in public finances as long as they don’t do anything silly to dissuade investment

Strange to cut infrastructure projects when focussing so heavily on growth though (which is essential if we want a better public services, improvement in public and personal finances etc)
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,091
The economy is built on confidence and Reeves actions inspire the opposite. Who'd want to invest in the UK when the government isn't interested in doing so?
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer and wingy
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,092
fernandopartridge said:
The economy is built on confidence and Reeves actions inspire the opposite. Who'd want to invest in the UK when the government isn't interested in doing so?
Click to expand...

Just not having the merry go round of PMs and senior ministerial positions will help. Not sure talking it down when it’s on the turn is wise though
 

Diogenes

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,093
fernandopartridge said:
The civil service buys more and more consultancy because it has less and less of its own resource.
Click to expand...

Can speak to this - the government has been trying to reduce headcount to "save money" but they fill the gaps with agency staff and consultants.

Often you see consultants doing the same job that was previously done by a civil servants on £15 an hour now being done by a consultant on £300-400 per day.

It's such an extortionate waste of money yet because consultants or agency staff aren't civil servants they aren't part of that headcount reduction. So the government is able to cook the books and say "we saved X amount of money on civil servants salaries by bringing down the number or civil servants". When in reality they are throwing far more money to get the same job done by non civil servants. It's a joke.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer, Ian1779, wingy and 3 others

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,094
Diogenes said:
Can speak to this - the government has been trying to reduce headcount to "save money" but they fill the gaps with agency staff and consultants.

Often you see consultants doing the same job that was previously done by a civil servants on £15 an hour now being done by a consultant on £300-400 per day.

It's such an extortionate waste of money yet because consultants or agency staff aren't civil servants they aren't part of that headcount reduction. So the government is able to cook the books and say "we saved X amount of money on civil servants salaries by bringing down the number or civil servants". When in reality they are throwing far more money to get the same job done by non civil servants. It's a joke.
Click to expand...

It's been going on years, other tricks are paying for consultants from 'programme' budgets rather than 'admin' budgets, all just an illusion.
 
Reactions: Deleted member 5849 and Nick

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,095
Diogenes said:
Can speak to this - the government has been trying to reduce headcount to "save money" but they fill the gaps with agency staff and consultants.

Often you see consultants doing the same job that was previously done by a civil servants on £15 an hour now being done by a consultant on £300-400 per day.

It's such an extortionate waste of money yet because consultants or agency staff aren't civil servants they aren't part of that headcount reduction. So the government is able to cook the books and say "we saved X amount of money on civil servants salaries by bringing down the number or civil servants". When in reality they are throwing far more money to get the same job done by non civil servants. It's a joke.
Click to expand...
Still remember when I worked in a school when it was run by the council. I offered to do plenty of stuff that was within my skillset, I was on a shocking wage. No. They wanted to pay an external consultant hundreds to do it (who still asked for help anyway).

They would buy stuff from particular companies where it was 3 times the price of everywhere else.

Makes you wonder their links to these consultants.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,096
Nick said:
Still remember when I worked in a school when it was run by the council. I offered to do plenty of stuff that was within my skillset, I was on a shocking wage. No. They wanted to pay an external consultant hundreds to do it (who still asked for help anyway).

They would buy stuff from particular companies where it was 3 times the price of everywhere else.

Makes you wonder their links to these consultants.
Click to expand...

It's a way of diluting ownership of decisions - get a consultancy to tell us what we already know and tell us to do what we already intended to do.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,097
fernandopartridge said:
It's a way of diluting ownership of decisions - get a consultancy to tell us what we already know and tell us to do what we already intended to do.
Click to expand...
And pay them silly money for it.
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,098
fernandopartridge said:
The civil service buys more and more consultancy because it has less and less of its own resource.
Click to expand...
The civil service has plenty of resource, just not of the required quality.
 
Reactions: tisza

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,099
MalcSB said:
The civil service has plenty of resource, just not of the required quality.
Click to expand...

Well you know the saying, pay peanuts...
 

Diogenes

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,100
MalcSB said:
The civil service has plenty of resource, just not of the required quality.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of really capable people, the problem is keeping hold of them.

Below inflation pay deals over the last decade has seen real time pay cuts of 15-20%, and without pay progression civil servants are chasing promotion or moving to the private sector.

A good bunch of those left behind then are those that are, not so capable.
 
Reactions: shmmeee
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,101
MalcSB said:
The civil service has plenty of resource, just not of the required quality.
Click to expand...
Should have hired me when I applied last year…
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,102
Diogenes said:
There are plenty of really capable people, the problem is keeping hold of them.

Below inflation pay deals over the last decade has seen real time pay cuts of 15-20%, and without pay progression civil servants are chasing promotion or moving to the private sector.

A good bunch of those left behind then are those that are, not so capable.
Click to expand...

Its like this across public services TBF. Anyone with anything about them to earn more, be it consultancy, moving to agency work, or leaving for a new profession, has done if they haven’t got iron strong commitment to public service.
 

tisza

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,103
Diogenes said:
Can speak to this - the government has been trying to reduce headcount to "save money" but they fill the gaps with agency staff and consultants.

Often you see consultants doing the same job that was previously done by a civil servants on £15 an hour now being done by a consultant on £300-400 per day.

It's such an extortionate waste of money yet because consultants or agency staff aren't civil servants they aren't part of that headcount reduction. So the government is able to cook the books and say "we saved X amount of money on civil servants salaries by bringing down the number or civil servants". When in reality they are throwing far more money to get the same job done by non civil servants. It's a joke.
Click to expand...
civil service employment numbers up around 130,000 (35%) since 2016. Govts keep talking about reducing numbers but haven't got it through. This Govt may well raise taxes but good luck collecting them with the current work backlog and the fact still around half HMRC employees are still working from home.
 

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,104
tisza said:
civil service employment numbers up around 130,000 (35%) since 2016. Govts keep talking about reducing numbers but haven't got it through. This Govt may well raise taxes but good luck collecting them with the current work backlog and the fact still around half HMRC employees are still working from home.
Click to expand...

You talk about it being 'bloated' so what do you think the correct number is and why?

UK is below the OECD average: Share of people employed in government by country 2019 | Statista
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 29, 2024
  • #42,105
tisza said:
civil service employment numbers up around 130,000 (35%) since 2016. Govts keep talking about reducing numbers but haven't got it through. This Govt may well raise taxes but good luck collecting them with the current work backlog and the fact still around half HMRC employees are still working from home.
Click to expand...
I think they’ve been mainly caused by Brexit though, replacing bureaucrats in Brussels with bureaucrats in the UK and to do the extra bureaucracy caused by Brexit.

After the 2010 spending review we lost over a 100K civil servants right up to 2016. We’ve not necessarily been reinstating the jobs lost to austerity.

There’s also no measurable loss in productivity at the HMRC through working from home. Whatever issues HMRC is having there’s no evidence that it’s due to WFH. Even the Tories couldn’t fudge the figures to prove it regardless of what the likes of Rees-Mogg were claiming while in government. The official figure is 57% of HMRC staff by the way, it also doesn’t mean that they never go into the office, it actually means that they go in 3 days a week and WFH the other 2.
 
Reactions: Diogenes and Earlsdon_Skyblue1
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