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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (22 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,131
PVA said:
It has pledged to ban "exploitative" zero hours contracts, end so-called "fire and rehire" practices, and introduce basic rights to parental leave, sick pay and protection from unfair dismissal from day one of employment.

It also plans to ensure the national minimum wage is a "genuine living wage", removing "discriminatory" age bands for younger earners, and has left open the door for a repeal of anti-strike laws put in place by the Conservative government.
Click to expand...

In other words nothing other than getting employees to pay 18 year olds the same as anyone else - so let’s employ more experienced people.

There are already rights on everything else which I assume meet ECHR legislation surely?
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,132
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Every action has unintended consequences, but it's pretty clear to me that workers' rights have slowly been eroded over the last 40 years. The law requiring unions to only hold strike ballots by post with a minimum turnout threshold is something we don't do for any other kind of vote in this country.

Why is that do you think?
Click to expand...
Presumably to stop 3 people meeting at lunchtime, voting unanimously for a strike and then expecting the other 100 workforce to join them.
 
Reactions: shmmeee and Grendel
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,133
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Every action has unintended consequences, but it's pretty clear to me that workers' rights have slowly been eroded over the last 40 years. The law requiring unions to only hold strike ballots by post with a minimum turnout threshold is something we don't do for any other kind of vote in this country.

Why is that do you think?
Click to expand...
What is counterintuitive is the rules as they stand can make it more effective to not vote than vote against strike action, as that vote against will count towards turnout.

Forget the rights or wrongs, that in itself is bonkers.
 
Reactions: nicksar, clint van damme and Brighton Sky Blue
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,134
MalcSB said:
Presumably to stop 3 people meeting at lunchtime, voting unanimously for a strike and then expecting the other 100 workforce to join them.
Click to expand...
That isn't quite how it works as I suspect you're aware. Insisting on a postal ballot is quite deliberately done to make the turnout requirement harder to meet.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,135
MalcSB said:
Presumably to stop 3 people meeting at lunchtime, voting unanimously for a strike and then expecting the other 100 workforce to join them.
Click to expand...

Yeah - open ballots are open to threats and intimidation
 

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,136
Grendel said:
Yeah - open ballots are open to threats and intimidation
Click to expand...
I’m sure that never happened in the past 🫤
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,137
Grendel said:
Yeah - open ballots are open to threats and intimidation
Click to expand...
Which is why we don't have open ballots for any elections or referenda in this country anymore. Why do we also not have postal-only ballots for these votes?
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,138
Grendel said:
What would you replace the probationary period rules with? I’m not sure if it’s the two year thing or 3 months in a contract tbh
Click to expand...

Probationary periods, within reason, are sensible. Ones I’ve seen have been six months.
 
Reactions: Sick Boy, MalcSB and Grendel

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,139
MalcSB said:
Highly unlikely.
Click to expand...

And yet true.

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/06/09/stamp_duty_terrible_how_to_abolish/#:~:text=But%20the%20evidence%20shows%20that,than%20a%20semi%20in%20Blackpool.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,140
Grendel said:
What would you replace the probationary period rules with? I’m not sure if it’s the two year thing or 3 months in a contract tbh
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t have them replaced with anything, a new worker should have the same rights as ones who have been with the employer for longer.
 
Reactions: MalcSB
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,141
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I wouldn’t have them replaced with anything, a new worker should have the same rights as ones who have been with the employer for longer.
Click to expand...

But have you tried to remove someone for poor performance/unsuitability for a role ? Its a nightmare these days….well if you’re a firm that operates within the legislation/rules it is. A probationary period can encourage employers to take a punt on someone, knowing if it isn’t a right fit, or the person isn’t suitable, they can both move on.
 
Reactions: MalcSB and Nick

Nick

Administrator
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,142
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I wouldn’t have them replaced with anything, a new worker should have the same rights as ones who have been with the employer for longer.
Click to expand...

That then gives an employee to take the piss from day one? In a smaller business with 10 or so employees that can make or break a business. 3 Months is usually enough to have a probation period before they start getting the benefits. If somebody joins a job and is worried about sick pay within the first month it would be a red flag anyway.

Corporate where there's millions of employees, not so much,
 
Reactions: MalcSB and CCFCSteve
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,143
3 month probationary period is perfectly fine, and I've never had a prospective employee complain about it either.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,144
Nick said:
That then gives an employee to take the piss from day one? In a smaller business with 10 or so employees that can make or break a business. 3 Months is usually enough to have a probation period before they start getting the benefits. If somebody joins a job and is worried about sick pay within the first month it would be a red flag anyway.

Corporate where there's millions of employees, not so much,
Click to expand...

You’ve hit the nail on the head here. When most people think of employee rights, they’re understandably thinking about the big multi nationals v the man on the street, when in reality it’s SMEs that employ a majority of people in this country
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,145
CCFCSteve said:
You’ve hit the nail on the head here. When most people think of employee rights, they’re understandably thinking about the big multi nationals v the man on the street, when in reality it’s SMEs that employ a majority of people in this country
Click to expand...

You can usually tell the people who have worked mostly in the bigger companies as opposed to the SMEs.

To an SME, you hire somebody and they go off long term sick on full sick pay, you have to hire another person to do their job and you are in the shit. If I was interviewing and somebody said "Do I get sick pay from day one" they wouldn't get the job.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,146
Nick said:
That then gives an employee to take the piss from day one? In a smaller business with 10 or so employees that can make or break a business. 3 Months is usually enough to have a probation period before they start getting the benefits. If somebody joins a job and is worried about sick pay within the first month it would be a red flag anyway.

Corporate where there's millions of employees, not so much,
Click to expand...
It doesn’t as the new employee is still subject to the same codes of conduct and contractual obligations as anyone else. The probationary period is also open to abuse from the employer’s side is it not?
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,147
PVA said:
3 month probationary period is perfectly fine, and I've never had a prospective employee complain about it either.
Click to expand...
I wonder why!
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,148
Brighton Sky Blue said:
I wouldn’t have them replaced with anything, a new worker should have the same rights as ones who have been with the employer for longer.
Click to expand...

So you have to go through a long process even if the person lied to get the job and doesn’t possess the skills? Someone should have same rights at 1 day as 40 years? Seriously?
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,149
Grendel said:
So you have to go through a long process even if the person lied to get the job and doesn’t possess the skills? Someone should have same rights at 1 day as 40 years? Seriously?
Click to expand...
I assume just expected to hire somebody else as well and keep doing it until somebody can do the job. You just pay 10 wages with 9 doing nothing.

Up the workers, the nasty employer deserves it.
 

Nick

Administrator
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,150
Brighton Sky Blue said:
It doesn’t as the new employee is still subject to the same codes of conduct and contractual obligations as anyone else. The probationary period is also open to abuse from the employer’s side is it not?
Click to expand...
It gives honest businesses a way to get rid of somebody if they are no good fit the job. Let's face it, it's an employer wants to abuse the probation period they can find ways to get rid of little.

I've had a probation period in every job, never had an issue with it.
 
Reactions: MalcSB and Mucca Mad Boys

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,151
I think there needs to be some probationary period, even if it’s only a month. CVs and interviews are too easy to game.
 
Reactions: MalcSB

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,152
But things like constructive dismissal, discrimination, etc should be in force day one. There’s still a right and wrong way of terminating employment no matter how long someone has been there. SSP is peanuts and should be backed by a doctors note, so not sure about that.
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer, Ian1779 and Sky Blue Pete

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,153
Brighton Sky Blue said:
It doesn’t as the new employee is still subject to the same codes of conduct and contractual obligations as anyone else. The probationary period is also open to abuse from the employer’s side is it not?
Click to expand...

How so? There’s very few jobs in the market where it would benefit an employer to hire and fire within a probationary period. The investment and costs of hiring and training new staff, in reality, makes it often not worth it to the employer to take fail probations and rehire.

It works both ways too. My notice period is now 3 months whereas it is was one week before the probation period ended. I nearly left that job for another so that would’ve totally screwed my employer.

There’s still documented HR procedures too to prevent unfair dismissal claims too. I’ve been on both ends of the extending probation period.

It’s very difficult to get rid of someone who’s poor at their job once the probation has been passed so I personally don’t have an issue with that particular issue.
 
Reactions: MalcSB
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,154
shmmeee said:
I think there needs to be some probationary period, even if it’s only a month. CVs and interviews are too easy to game.
Click to expand...

Yeah this is the main reason.
 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,155
I think I owe shmeee an apology.

Before I said the Centerists helped the Nazi's get into power.

I was wrong.

They just had the casting vote which destroyed German Democracy.
 
Reactions: Sky Blue Pete

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,156
There should be triggers where employers can terminate a contract if you hit x% of sick time (something high like 40-50%). I’ve known examples of people who are off for six months back for one off again, or who go sick very shortly after joining. Then PIP or similar should be taking over IMO as it’s functionally no different from someone who can’t work.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,157
A genuine loon

 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,158
shmmeee said:
A genuine loon

Click to expand...

See Shmeee, we can agree on some stuff

Can you see Society lurching to the right though when there is no counterbalance.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,159
Philosoraptor said:
Can you see Society lurching to the right though when there is no counterbalance.
Click to expand...
This has already happened.
 
Reactions: Deleted member 9744
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,160
Farage really does come undone with the most basic of questioning.
 
Reactions: AOM and clint van damme

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,161
shmmeee said:
And yet true.

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/06/09/stamp_duty_terrible_how_to_abolish/#:~:text=But%20the%20evidence%20shows%20that,than%20a%20semi%20in%20Blackpool.
Click to expand...
My “highly unlikely” response was to a suggestion that first time buyers relief might encourage FTBs to hold off and but a more expensive house. You have, again, responded to what you want to rather than what was said.

It is quite clear that the ending of a property related relief will have an inflationary effect on house prices. It happened on the late 80’s dual mortgage interest relief was stopped for new purchases. Prices boomed but then plummeted shortly thereafter.

The post covid stamp duty relief ahead a similar inflationary impact, in that there was a scramble to purchase before it ended. The relief did not, per se, cause the increase in house prices, it was the temporary nature of the relief.

Stamp duty is an awful tax as the article says. Abolishing it would not necessarily increase prices. It would certainly encourage older people, say like me, who live in a house that is arguably too big for them but don’t want to throw away £25k total moving costs. Council tax is also an awful tax and the comparisons with Westminster are bonkers.
 
Reactions: Grendel

MalcSB

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,162
Brighton Sky Blue said:
That isn't quite how it works as I suspect you're aware. Insisting on a postal ballot is quite deliberately done to make the turnout requirement harder to meet.
Click to expand...
I’ve never been on strike.
 
Reactions: nicksar

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,163
Brighton Sky Blue said:
This has already happened.
Click to expand...

And still is...
 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,164
Whilst we're on politics...

 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • Jun 29, 2024
  • #39,165
MalcSB said:
I’ve never been on strike.
Click to expand...
Nor do you seem to know how it works
 
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