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Do you want to discuss boring politics? (31 Viewers)

  • Thread starter mrtrench
  • Start date Jun 14, 2020
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CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,001
clint van damme said:
I could forgive him for welcoming a right wing tory, but the rape case shenanigans, not a fucking chance.
Click to expand...

It’s a very strange move from both sides. How does moving to labour ‘stop the boats’ (which appears to have been her big issue/focus) ? How does welcoming her do anything for labours credibility/standing.

Its weirdness also means it probably doesn’t damage Sunak much either
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,002
Brighton Sky Blue said:
What concessions did Cameron make exactly? Vowing to continue austerity and hold a Brexit vote?
Click to expand...

Brexit and austerity. The entirely of politics.
 
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,003
shmmeee said:
Brexit and austerity. The entirely of politics.
Click to expand...
Not answering the question but hey Ho
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,004
Brighton Sky Blue said:
Not answering the question but hey Ho
Click to expand...

Google your own shit if you aren’t old enough to remember 2010 man. But climate, social policy, tax rates, to name but three things that the right wing equivalent of you are currently upset about.

The Tories spent years rehabilitating their image after being right wing nutters so they could get a hearing with the electorate.

This is all very very basic politics. I’m genuinely a bit shocked stating it gets so much push back on here. The cycle is the same for every party: lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, lose election even harder, possibly repeat, eventually moderate towards the median voter to get elected again, base claims you’ve sold out, eventually lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, and the cycle begins anew.
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,005
shmmeee said:
Google your own shit if you aren’t old enough to remember 2010 man. But climate, social policy, tax rates, to name but three things that the right wing equivalent of you are currently upset about.

The Tories spent years rehabilitating their image after being right wing nutters so they could get a hearing with the electorate.

This is all very very basic politics. I’m genuinely a bit shocked stating it gets so much push back on here. The cycle is the same for every party: lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, lose election even harder, possibly repeat, eventually moderate towards the median voter to get elected again, base claims you’ve sold out, eventually lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, and the cycle begins anew.
Click to expand...

The decision for “Sir Softie” to recruit Elphick is just bizarre.

She is on the right of the Tory party

It’s pissed off many of his own MPs and says what? Labour are the party of the right? Is Baker and Reece Mogg the next two?
 
Reactions: Sky_Blue_Dreamer and CCFCSteve
B

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,006
Grendel said:
The decision for “Sir Softie” to recruit Elphick is just bizarre.

She is on the right of the Tory party

It’s pissed off many of his own MPs and says what? Labour are the party of the right? Is Baker and Reece Mogg the next two?
Click to expand...
I assume he’s gotten drunk off Daily Mail approval
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,007
shmmeee said:
Google your own shit if you aren’t old enough to remember 2010 man. But climate, social policy, tax rates, to name but three things that the right wing equivalent of you are currently upset about.

The Tories spent years rehabilitating their image after being right wing nutters so they could get a hearing with the electorate.

This is all very very basic politics. I’m genuinely a bit shocked stating it gets so much push back on here. The cycle is the same for every party: lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, lose election even harder, possibly repeat, eventually moderate towards the median voter to get elected again, base claims you’ve sold out, eventually lose election, only base left, they say “be more like us it’s the only way”, and the cycle begins anew.
Click to expand...

Agree with this. Political parties need to shift sufficiently to secure enough of a proportion of the vote to win the election. As you say, it’s basic politics.

Elphicke’s defection doesn’t reflect this though. All I’m thinking about when I see this and people like Zahawi stepping down at next election (no great shame) is that many politicians are just in it for themselves and lack any principles or willingness to fight for them
 
Reactions: Deleted member 5849

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,008
Grendel said:
The decision for “Sir Softie” to recruit Elphick is just bizarre.

She is on the right of the Tory party

It’s pissed off many of his own MPs and says what? Labour are the party of the right? Is Baker and Reece Mogg the next two?
Click to expand...

Having more MPs is better than having fewer.

Seriously guys, can you just all take ten minutes on here and then we can talk?

Easy peasy politics: How it all works - BBC Bitesize

Easy peasy politics for 11-14 year olds in Wales.
www.bbc.co.uk
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,009
CCFCSteve said:
Agree with this. Political parties need to shift sufficiently to secure enough of a proportion of the vote to win the election. As you say, it’s basic politics.

Elphicke’s defection doesn’t reflect this though. All I’m thinking about when I see this and people like Zahawi stepping down at next election (no great shame) is that many politicians are just in it for themselves and lack any principles or willingness to fight for them
Click to expand...

My reply was to BSB claiming the Tories never have to moderate.

On this: Nah it’s a PR play and that’s it. But are you going to turn down the MP for Dover saying the Tories are a bust when stopping boats is their big thing?

She’s gone at the next election. She’s already elected. I really don’t get the pearl clutching.
 
Reactions: CCFCSteve
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,010
shmmeee said:
Having more MPs is better than having fewer.

Seriously guys, can you just all take ten minutes on here and then we can talk?

Easy peasy politics: How it all works - BBC Bitesize

Easy peasy politics for 11-14 year olds in Wales.
www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...

It's absolutely crackers isn't it.

No one is going to have to put a X next to her name. Nobody is going to have to vote for a Labour Party containing Natalie Elphicke.


Everyone in here:

 

David O'Day

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,011
Sick Boy said:
More good news for the Tory Labour boys -

David Lammy tells US Republicans he can find ‘common cause’ with Trump

In Washington DC speech, shadow foreign secretary says Labour ‘will always work with US, whoever wins’
www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
Shock, likely next foreign sec. doesn't want to piss off potential next us president
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,012
PVA said:
It's absolutely crackers isn't it.

No one is going to have to put a X next to her name. Nobody is going to have to vote for a Labour Party containing Natalie Elphicke.


Everyone in here:

Click to expand...

“This person with crazy right wing views has signed up to vote according to the Labour whip and I’m here to tell you this is a bad thing. She should be free to vote according to her crazy views in the crazy party. Iamaveryseriouslyconcerned”
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,013
PVA said:
It's absolutely crackers isn't it.

No one is going to have to put a X next to her name. Nobody is going to have to vote for a Labour Party containing Natalie Elphicke.


Everyone in here:

Click to expand...

Lol is Shmmeee your new father figure telling you how to vote?

If its "crackers" why are his own MPs pissed off with Sir Softie?
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,014
Literally first post I see opening Twitter.

 
P

PVA

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,015
Grendel said:
If its "crackers" why are his own MPs pissed off with Sir Softie?
Click to expand...

If they're so concerned and so principled I guess they'll be resigning in their droves right?
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,016
shmmeee said:
My reply was to BSB claiming the Tories never have to moderate.

On this: Nah it’s a PR play and that’s it. But are you going to turn down the MP for Dover saying the Tories are a bust when stopping boats is their big thing?

She’s gone at the next election. She’s already elected. I really don’t get the pearl clutching.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the Elphicke comment wasn’t in response to yours, more general observation that it doesn’t really make sense, or reflect well on anyway.

If I was starmer I personally wouldn’t have admitted her, no need really. Let her defect to reform and comment on the shambles from afar
 
Reactions: Deleted member 5849, Deleted member 9744 and Mucca Mad Boys

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,017
shmmeee said:
Literally first post I see opening Twitter.

Click to expand...

Or the Labour Party are now the Tory Party under a red rossette with Sir Softie the true new Cameron
 
Reactions: shmmeee

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,018
PVA said:
If they're so concerned and so principled I guess they'll be resigning in their droves right?
Click to expand...
Why would anyone with principles do that? If Neil Kinnock and Denis Healey took that approach there would not be a Labour Party anymore
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,019
For those “let’s win Tories over” people. Can I please ask where the limit is?

Would you take Reece-Mogg? Would a Tommy Robinson endorsement be ok?

I get winning over undecideds and doing damage to your rivals but surely there is a limit to what you take without abandoning your principles.
 
Reactions: AOM, Deleted member 5849 and Sky_Blue_Dreamer

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,020
Grendel said:
Or the Labour Party are now the Tory Party under a red rossette with Sir Softie the true new Cameron
Click to expand...

You mean someone who took a party that was beaten electorally because of their commitment to grievance politics and made them electable through moderation?

Yeah, probably. Just like every PM who came from opposition.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,021
Liquid Gold said:
For those “let’s win Tories over” people. Can I please ask where the limit is?

Would you take Reece-Mogg? Would a Tommy Robinson endorsement be ok?

I get winning over undecideds and doing damage to your rivals but surely there is a limit to what you take without abandoning your principles.
Click to expand...

Yes. I want a Labour government. Ideally I want only Labour MPs and only Labour votes. I believe left wing policies can serve everyone. I think Robinson and Mogg are wrong with their current hypotheses on how to fix society and then signing up for Labour instead would be good news.

You see electoral politics as a badge of honour, I see it as a tool for change. That’s the fundamental difference here.
 
Reactions: chiefdave, Brighton Sky Blue and Deleted member 5849

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,022
This is the political equivalent of moaning about day trippers at the CBS.
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,023
shmmeee said:
Yes. I want a Labour government. Ideally I want only Labour MPs and only Labour votes. I believe left wing policies can serve everyone. I think Robinson and Mogg are wrong with their current hypotheses on how to fix society and then signing up for Labour instead would be good news.

You see electoral politics as a badge of honour, I see it as a tool for change. That’s the fundamental difference here.
Click to expand...
I don’t see the point in winning if your party contains the views of Rees-Mogg and Robinson though. The point is to win and make the change you want based on what you genuinely believe is best for the country. Not win at any means necessary and end up following the same failed model as the last lot.
 
Reactions: chiefdave and Deleted member 5849

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,024
Liquid Gold said:
I don’t see the point in winning if your party contains the views of Rees-Mogg and Robinson though. The point is to win and make the change you want based on what you genuinely believe is best for the country. Not win at any means necessary and end up following the same failed model as the last lot.
Click to expand...

Whoever is in the party signs up for the whip and the manifesto. We are talking about the most left wing Labour leader bar Corbyn since Foot here. Going in promising nationalisation, workers rights, climate action, house building. What principle exactly do you hold so dear it trumps those?
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,025
shmmeee said:
Whoever is in the party signs up for the whip and the manifesto. We are talking about the most left wing Labour leader bar Corbyn since Foot here. Going in promising nationalisation, workers rights, climate action, house building. What principle exactly do you hold so dear it trumps those?
Click to expand...
I eagerly await to see all of those things in the manifesto. At the moment he flys by the wind so much nobody can be sure.

My mum is one that has always voted Labour her whole life but said she won’t vote for Starmer because he lacks principle. She’s not some old socialist either. I think it’s a big gamble to be sucking up the rightest of right wingers when you can just convince people of positive change.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,026
shmmeee said:
Having more MPs is better than having fewer.

Seriously guys, can you just all take ten minutes on here and then we can talk?

Easy peasy politics: How it all works - BBC Bitesize

Easy peasy politics for 11-14 year olds in Wales.
www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...
But her defection isn’t enough to make a meaningful difference in a vote if all tories vote with the whip. Having slept on it it makes less sense than it did yesterday. If she’d gone and worked Tice’s company I’d have understood her quitting the Tories, she’s right up their street. No sign she’s had a road to Damascus conversion to the left. I’m not sure who she intended to do the most damage too by defecting. Sunak or Starmer.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,027
Liquid Gold said:
I eagerly await to see all of those things in the manifesto. At the moment he flys by the wind so much nobody can be sure.

My mum is one that has always voted Labour her whole life but said she won’t vote for Starmer because he lacks principle. She’s not some old socialist either. I think it’s a big gamble to be sucking up the rightest of right wingers when you can just convince people of positive change.
Click to expand...

Ah the mythical other option which is so easy yet when the left were in charge they just chose not to do for reasons.

Win an election then we’ll talk.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,028
skybluetony176 said:
But her defection isn’t enough to make a meaningful difference in a vote if all tories vote with the whip. Having slept on it it makes less sense than it did yesterday. If she’d gone and worked Tice’s company I’d have understood her quitting the Tories, she’s right up their street. No sign she’s had a road to Damascus conversion to the left. I’m not sure who she intended to do the most damage too by defecting. Sunak or Starmer.
Click to expand...

I’ll break out the crayons and primary colours.

The Tories are making immigration via small boats their tentpole issue.

This is the Tory MP for Dover

Dover is a place on the south coast that is often strongly linked with small boat migration.

Having the MP for the place emblematic of what you say if your big issue defect to the opposition looks bad.

The opposition looking bad depresses their vote and may even improve yours.

Getting more votes than the opposition means the MPs under your whip get elected.

The party that can command the most MPs gets to be the government.

The government gets to enact policy and spend tax money towards its aims and priorities.
 
Reactions: chiefdave, Grendel and clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,029
PVA said:
It's absolutely crackers isn't it.

No one is going to have to put a X next to her name. Nobody is going to have to vote for a Labour Party containing Natalie Elphicke.


Everyone in here:

Click to expand...

So why accept her then given her track record?
You OK with the way she behaved towards her husbands victims?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,030
In the meantime interest of balance a good news Labour story broke this morning but is probably being drowned out by the Elphicke story.

Labour has promised Unions that it will outlaw fire and hire. Along with the commitment to repeal the Tories minimum service level bill (yay for Brexit) some improvements in workers rights are on the way under a labour government. Within the first 100 days apparently.
 
Last edited: May 9, 2024
Reactions: chiefdave

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,031
More from Twitter. Just to prod the idea that the Tories are being super right wing, I know I’m a prick for effect on this topic. But seriously if you actually want to understand Labour post Brown until Starmer then watch the Tories right now. It’s an exact mirror. They will elect a headbanger. They will do badly in the polls until they elect someone more moderate. All this time the fringe of the party will complain that what they really need to do is try being properly right wing, not this compromise version they’re trying (no matter how right wing you, I, or the general public see them as)

 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,032
Sick Boy said:
More good news for the Tory Labour boys -

David Lammy tells US Republicans he can find ‘common cause’ with Trump

In Washington DC speech, shadow foreign secretary says Labour ‘will always work with US, whoever wins’
www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...

Let's hope some sense can be talked into the unprincipled grifter, but I think Trump will have his work cut out
 
Reactions: Grendel

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,033
CCFCSteve said:
Agree with this. Political parties need to shift sufficiently to secure enough of a proportion of the vote to win the election. As you say, it’s basic politics.

Elphicke’s defection doesn’t reflect this though. All I’m thinking about when I see this and people like Zahawi stepping down at next election (no great shame) is that many politicians are just in it for themselves and lack any principles or willingness to fight for them
Click to expand...
Your second paragraph shows how she will indeed fit right into Kier's Labour party
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,034
shmmeee said:
I’ll break out the crayons and primary colours.

The Tories are making immigration via small boats their tentpole issue.

This is the Tory MP for Dover

Dover is a place on the south coast that is often strongly linked with small boat migration.

Having the MP for the place emblematic of what you say if your big issue defect to the opposition looks bad.

The opposition looking bad depresses their vote and may even improve yours.

Getting more votes than the opposition means the MPs under your whip get elected.

The party that can command the most MPs gets to be the government.

The government gets to enact policy and spend tax money towards its aims and priorities.
Click to expand...
Okay, I’ll get the crayons out too. Sunak’s small boat/Rwanda policy isn’t cutting through except with the biggest frothers who were most likely going to vote for anyone but Labour anyway. The message you’re talking about is being lost anyway in the noise about Labour welcoming a far right nutter into the party with a history of victim blaming and trying to influence legal proceedings. It’s an own goal, a hollow victory, is more negative than positive. A mistake.
 
Reactions: duffer

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • May 9, 2024
  • #35,035
Every proponent of a political ideology requires total policy adherence before they’ll accept their idealised version doesn’t work. They’ll no true Scotsman any and every implementation that could be termed an example of their ideology. For anything in a mixed economy they will claim the good things are caused by adherence to their policy ideals and the bad things by deviation and what’s needed is purity.

If by chance they do get in a position to achieve this they will scare the bejeezus out of voters because they will require a significant change and each change creates winners and losers and makes people fear they’ll be losers. So the more change the more opposition at worst and uncertainty at best. Also as you approach one persons idea of purity, by definition you move further from those who were previously your close allies and arguments with them intensify.

This then leads to defeat, which is then blamed on external malign forces (the anti growth coalition, the neoliberal right wing press) to ensure we can maintain the belief in ideological purity.

This includes various flavours of centrism before anyone says something. It’s a human trait not one particular to an ideology.
 
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