Deliberate handball (1 Viewer)

Otis · Feb 15, 2016

It needs sorting out. What happened to Man City yesterday could quite easily happen to us and what if it happened in a play-off final should we get there?

A decision like that could be so massive.

That decision in the Man City game where the ball hit Sterling was a complete joke.

Remember, the law is 'deliberate handball.'

Sterling turned his back on the ball.

His hands weren't thrown out away from his body.

The ball hit his back and side and under his armpit.

There is no way Clattenburg could have been completely sure. Seemingly he has made an assumption that the ball must have hit his arm.

It was a ridiculous decision to give and ref's should always come back to the base fact that the decision has to be made on the proviso of DELIBERATE hand ball.

Even if the ball did hit Sterling's arm yesterday there was no way that, that could be deemed deliberate.

Really worries me we are going to be the recipient of such a poor decision.

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 15, 2016

Hi Otis it's not just deliberate handball in the laws of the game though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/rules_and_equipment/4524354.stm

So if a player has his arms in such a way as to deliberately block the ball this could be deemed deliberate handball too.

I agree with you, as normally, that it could be clearer and that it was a pretty harsh decision

I_Saw_Shaw_Score · Feb 15, 2016

Such a grey area, don't want it to become like hockey where people aim for people's feet for penalty corners , that any contact with the arm is automatically penalised!

matesx · Feb 15, 2016

is it time to review such decisions by a 2nd ref via TV replay? as in Rugby?

or does that stifle the fun and controversy of the game? after all we all love moaning about crap refs and woeful decisions dont we?

Otis · Feb 15, 2016

Obvious answer is technology. Any decision like that referred to upstairs.

As you say Pete, putting your arms out in a way to deliberately block the ball.

Was there any of that in that Sterling incident at all?

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 15, 2016

See that's where I think you could argue he was using his arm to extend the area he could block and I'm sure that's why he gave it.

Very harsh. I think I'm more frustrated by refs that don't give anything

Leicester one much more of a penalty yesterday

Otis · Feb 15, 2016

Sky Blue Pete said:
See that's where I think you could argue he was using his arm to extend the area he could block and I'm sure that's why he gave it.

Very harsh. I think I'm more frustrated by refs that don't give anything

Leicester one much more of a penalty yesterday

But he didn't extend his arm. The lad turned his back on the ball deliberately, to exactly avoid using his arms.

Things like this are so wrong in the game. Someone throws their arms out deliberately to make the target area harder to hit or to stop the ball from going into the area, then fine, but there was none of that in this.

It's the same with almost blank range shots, where the defender has no time to react.

The key thing yesterday is that Sterling did everything to not let the ball hit his hand by turning his back on the ball.

It's just a nonsense to them deem that deliberate.

rupert_bear · Feb 15, 2016

I think at that level cunning players do aim at defenders arms then appeal when it strikes them. So tough for the refs who have a couple of seconds to make their decisions and then have it analysed at slow speed from half a dozen different angles. After watching the replays the Sterling one was never a pen imo but had we seen it just the once as Clappenburg did I might have said it was depending at what angle I viewed it from.

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 15, 2016

I agree it's harsh but he does open his left arm up like a wing. And the ball hits under there

That's why clattenberg gave it I'm sure.

Technology wouldn't help.

We need a Jimmy Hill style creative answer. I've not got it. Technology won't help other than disastrous decisions like drs.

You could have 1 appeal for each team a game that the captain uses for instance

Whichever way you go there will still be interpretation involved and then you can only ask for consistency

skybluesam66 · Feb 15, 2016

on the same subject - Vardy saw the leg left dangling, so fell over it
If he would have carried on his natural path, it would be no penalty - but saw the opportunity and took it

Again - open to interpretation

Otis · Feb 15, 2016

skybluesam66 said:
on the same subject - Vardy saw the leg left dangling, so fell over it
If he would have carried on his natural path, it would be no penalty - but saw the opportunity and took it

Again - open to interpretation

Yep, I thought that one was harsh too. Thought he bought that pen and rather than the defender making a challenge, that was the attacker deliberately going over the defender's leg to buy the pen.

What was the deal with Simpson too? Can't quite recall the first yellow he got, but that second foul was a clear yellow. He deliberately and cynically pulled the player back by the shirt. That was a yellow card all day long.

When he was sent off the look on his face was one of him receiving a great injustice.

Then he went off and swore at one of the back room staff team.

rupert_bear · Feb 15, 2016

Very harsh sending off, I'll call an Arsenal at home decision, I think Vardy's pen was correct stick a leg out and you are asking for a problem, I thought Leicester's other penalty claim was a pen too but less obvious, getting 2 penalties on Arsenals own muck heap is highly unlikely.

stupot07 · Feb 15, 2016

Vardy's pen was correct.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Otis · Feb 15, 2016

Yep, it was, but its is a form of cheating in my eyes. Vardy has deliberately gone in to the challenge to make contact with the defender's leg.

It's stuff like that, that makes me like football a little less.

Letter of the law it's a pen, but I don't like to see stuff like that, even from our own players (Maddison take note!)

Sent from my Hudl 2 using Tapatalk

OffenhamSkyBlue · Feb 15, 2016

"Left arm spreading like a wing"?

Have you ever watched an athlete/sportsperson in motion? What about it being simply the way he usually holds his arms when he runs, or makes challenges, or (perish the thought) tries to keep his balance?

You simply cannot insist that everyone runs around the pitch with their arms strapped tightly to their sides. If you did, you might as well go the whole hog and insist that there were no sleeves in football kit, and the arms had to be inside the shirt at all times, then scrap the handball rule. Not sure about throw-ins though!

matesx · Feb 15, 2016

Again - open to interpretation

one of the reasons we love and debate the game

Otis · Feb 15, 2016

matesx said:
Again - open to interpretation

one of the reasons we love and debate the game

And at times hate it!

OffenhamSkyBlue · Feb 15, 2016

I disagree with the age-old argument that having a review system like in rugby union would cause too much interruption to the game.
As an example, there was a match a few weeks back (was it Sheff U v Manure in the Cup?) where the ball had clearly gone over the goal line before being crossed for the goal. The lino didn't spot it. In rugby, they would have been able to review the last play leading to the act of the scoring of the goal, and justice would have been served.
Having said that, even when they do get the chance to review, as in Wales' first try against Scotland on Saturday, they sometimes get it wrong. Davies was standing in front of Roberts at the moment he touched the ball, and was therefore offside, and should not have been allowed to go on and score a try. The TMO was more concerned about whether the ball had travelled forward from Roberts, which it clearly hadn't, until it bounced.

I'll fetch me coat!

Otis · Feb 15, 2016

Obviously decisions can still be wrong even after review, but the review system does greatly reduce the amount of incorrect decisions.

There have been massive ones in the past, such as Henry's handball against the Irish.

In American Football things get reviewed all the time and also the coaches are allowed two challenges each. Not sure if that would work in football, but we certainly need to look at something similar, or along those lines.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Feb 15, 2016

I think the introduction of goal-line technology (which was held up for years by Blatter et al for slowing the game down too much) has shown that these things can be of great benefit to the game. I wouldn't want to see it become like NFL, which sometimes gets stopped on every insignificant play, and not for bookings, etc, which can be "open to interpretation" of the Laws, but for events leading up to the scoring of a goal and the awarding of a penalty kick (which are objective, yes/no outcomes) ... did the ball cross the line, was he offside, did the player handle it to bring it under control (Henry), did he flap his arms about a bit much???

As for the wrestling match in the box with every set-piece ... don't get me started on that one!

jimmyhillsfanclub · Feb 15, 2016

Poor or wrong decisions are part of the game......and in many ways, an important part.

Man City beat Everton a few weeks back......a goal coming from greedy little Sterlings cross that was already about 2 feet out of play......

you win some, you lose some.....get over it.

OffenhamSkyBlue · Feb 15, 2016

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Poor or wrong decisions are part of the game......and in many ways, an important part.

Man City beat Everton a few weeks back......a goal coming from greedy little Sterlings cross that was already about 2 feet out of play......

you win some, you lose some.....get over it.

That might be the event I am referring to in my earlier post.

skybluericoh · Feb 15, 2016

Frustrates the hell out of me the 'Deliberate.' Should be changed to hand ball end of!

Do we question whether it is a 'deliberate' goal? if so every deflection, own goal etc should be disallowed as it was not intended.

Now to really upset some people, in Rugby if it is a knock on, doesn't matter if the ball has been kick against someone and bounces off them uncontrolled, it is a knock on and a penalty is awarded.

Refs have a hard enough job as it is and expecting them to judge if something is deliberate or not just adds to the task. But hey, since when has the football bosses listened to fans and common sense. Protect the big boys and their own bank balances. Debate it all you like, if it comes to it in a Play off Final it will go they way of how the ref interprets the rule. At least it gives us something to blame when it goes against us, other than the fact we weren't good enough on the day.

Otis · Feb 15, 2016

OffenhamSkyBlue said:
I think the introduction of goal-line technology (which was held up for years by Blatter et al for slowing the game down too much) has shown that these things can be of great benefit to the game. I wouldn't want to see it become like NFL, which sometimes gets stopped on every insignificant play, and not for bookings, etc, which can be "open to interpretation" of the Laws, but for events leading up to the scoring of a goal and the awarding of a penalty kick (which are objective, yes/no outcomes) ... did the ball cross the line, was he offside, did the player handle it to bring it under control (Henry), did he flap his arms about a bit much???

As for the wrestling match in the box with every set-piece ... don't get me started on that one!

Yep. Really annoys me too.

Shirt pulling
Feighing injury
Diving
Appealing for red and yellow cards
Conning the ref
Taking the ball out to the corner flags
Surrounding the ref

Otis · Feb 15, 2016

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Poor or wrong decisions are part of the game......and in many ways, an important part.

Man City beat Everton a few weeks back......a goal coming from greedy little Sterlings cross that was already about 2 feet out of play......

you win some, you lose some.....get over it.

Not sure you would be saying that if we lost 1-0 in the play-off final to a penalty for handball where the ball was nowhere near the hand of our player.

skybluericoh · Feb 15, 2016

Otis said:
Yep. Really annoys me too.

Shirt pulling
Feighing injury
Diving
Appealing for red and yellow cards
Conning the ref
Taking the ball out to the corner flags
Surrounding the ref

Chasing the ball out of play with no intention of playing it= Obstruction?
I think that you can put all these under Gamesmanship, or conning the ref.

Ref have it in their power to stamp it out, but if ever they did the pundits would be all over them, imagine booking someone for swearing? 'part of the game' Still adds to the excitement

Otis · Feb 15, 2016

skybluericoh said:
Frustrates the hell out of me the 'Deliberate.' Should be changed to hand ball end of!

Do we question whether it is a 'deliberate' goal? if so every deflection, own goal etc should be disallowed as it was not intended.

Now to really upset some people, in Rugby if it is a knock on, doesn't matter if the ball has been kick against someone and bounces off them uncontrolled, it is a knock on and a penalty is awarded.

Refs have a hard enough job as it is and expecting them to judge if something is deliberate or not just adds to the task. But hey, since when has the football bosses listened to fans and common sense. Protect the big boys and their own bank balances. Debate it all you like, if it comes to it in a Play off Final it will go they way of how the ref interprets the rule. At least it gives us something to blame when it goes against us, other than the fact we weren't good enough on the day.

Not so sure. In rugby there are loads of pens, so you have many chances to try and nab 3 points back.

Most games in football don't even get a single pen and a goal in football holds much more relevance. You can't get goals back by kicking a rugby penalty or having a drop goal.

Deliberate handball is fine. To all but condemn a team to going a goal behind because a ball has been blasted at point blank range at a defender who hasn't even got his arms in the air, I think would be grossly unfair.

Leave it as it is, but get a 4th official to quickly look at the footage and confirm. Has to be clear cut.

Don't think that one yesterday needed more than one or two glances. It should be clear cut. That one was not clear cut by a long chalk and there was immediate doubt.

Could have been overturned in 10 seconds. All it needs is an unsure.

Deliberate handball (1 Viewer)

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