Couldn't ask any more of the players or Thorn last night (1 Viewer)

The fans who blame Thorn rather than SISU tend to know sod all. The numerous complaints about Eastwood not featuring is the tip of the iceberg with these people.

For the eleventy billioneth time no-one is blaming Thorn rather than Sisu.

Some people just blame Sisu.

Some people blame Sisu and Thorn.

No-one just blames Thorn.

Let's put this one to bed can't we. :facepalm:

OyJimmy said:

Thought the heart was there along with the tactics.

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I'd agree the effort was there...but that has to be a given, surely????

As for the tactics, I'm not sure...Platt gets taken off, but keep lumping balls into the box from wide areas to Nimely & Ronald....only in the last few minutes did I notice Nimely finally run at their centre halves!!!

Palace got their tactics right....2/3 players shielding the centre halves...forcing us to cross from out wide, which suited their 6ft+ centre halves.....

I wish McSheffrey would run a little more with the ball when he gets into the final third......

Couldn't ask anymore?! What a load of bollocks! I bloody could, how about converting one of the other decent chances we had and beating a very poor Palace side. They are nearly as bad as us on the road and it showed last night. My glass is well and truly half empty after that performance!


All the best

Otis said:

For the eleventy billioneth time no-one is blaming Thorn rather than Sisu.

Some people just blame Sisu.

Some people blame Sisu and Thorn.

No-one just blames Thorn.

Let's put this one to bed can't we. :facepalm:

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We can put this to bed if you don't start another crap thread about how we are relegated already until the end of the season.

Otis said:

For the eleventy billioneth time no-one is blaming Thorn rather than Sisu.

Some people just blame Sisu.

Some people blame Sisu and Thorn.

No-one just blames Thorn.

Let's put this one to bed can't we. :facepalm:

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You're wasting your time Otis.

Couldn't understand , people On the phone in, calling it a rubish Game, and poor performance, in my opinion, which apparently is often wrong, I thought the game was entertaining, played at a rousing tempo, and 100% plus effort from the Sky Blue players.
Had it not been, for a display of rock solid handling by the Palace keeper, we could well have been a couple up at half time, but our luck was again AWOL, after a decision to award a penalty on two minutes, from then on we were left chasing the points, culminating in a rousing finish, but the palace defence held out, to deny the Sky Blues the Victory they deserved.
"Thawed again Tankie"

Donnie Brasco said:

We can put this to bed if you don't start another crap thread about how we are relegated already until the end of the season.

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Crap thread? :thinking about: I thought it was a very good thread and a very well reasoned argument as to why we seem to be doomed. Didn't think it was crap at all. Very rational and constructively thought out.

Otis said:

Crap thread? :thinking about: I thought it was a very good thread and a very well reasoned argument as to why we seem to be doomed. Didn't think it was crap at all. Very rational and constructively thought out.

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Sorry I was depressed after reading it. It is infact a good thread, but you are well practiced since you've posted the same argument for weeks now.

Had changed my tact lately to be fair. Had been saying that if could win a couple of home games on the bounce and manage a draw that I might believe we have had a chance.

The reason for this thread was that people were saying we had to win all our home games (apart from Brum maybe) and Palace of course was very much one of those must win at home games.

Surely that scenario of us winning all our home games is now out the window?

I agree I doubt we will win all of our home games, but I also doubt that we need to.

We need other teams to continue to fail to not need to though.

Otis said:

We need other teams to continue to fail to not need to though.

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And why should they suddenly pick up form when they have failed to do so all season?

skybluesteve76 said:

They are nearly as bad as us on the road and it showed last night. My glass is well and truly half empty after that performance!
All the best

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Do you mean Palace who have an away record of won 6 and drawn 4 on the road, compared to our 3 draws?

Think the effort was decent but hell shouldnt we be expecting that as a minimum. If we dont have players willing to fight to stay in this division we might as well give up now.

Thought, especially in the first half, that the communication amongst the back four and the keeper was pretty poor. It didnt help Cameron (who didnt have a good first half) but to watch him argueing with Keogh in the first 10 minutes because he wasnt sure how they were working together didnt bode well. Similarly when him and Crainie stumbled over each other Cameron got the blame when actually Crainie was in the wrong position. Overall we miss a leader on the pitch and communication is not good

It also puzzles me why so few of our players take the ball on the run. Most seem to wait for the ball to be passed to them then move, there by making defending against them much easier. McSheffery first half in particular simply stood out wide and gave Crainie no real options got better in second half but surely all our players can take a pass on the move which would increase the speed of attack?.

when the ball was passed in to feet the players dont take an early look and open their body for the pass. That would give them more options and space. Many seem to take a half turn generally back towards our goal thereby slowing progress and reducing options. That said options depends on good movement from others and that simply is not there enough.

The pattern of play seems to be pass it along the back four a few times, then pass into the midfield who cramp themselves up when receiving so pass it back to back four who then hit a 50:50 long ball into Platt. Fair play to the guy he wins a good percentage and gets precious little protection from the refs but surely we should have more options. Our movement off the ball is poor.

Watch the likes of Nimely and Norwood and two things seem to stand out - their work ethic and their movement. That gives them the chance to use their other attributes and skills. Dont think any of the above is new under AT, as a team over the years our movement and basics have been somewhat less than they should be

Just my opinion

ps I dont think AT did much wrong last night - I put any errors down to the players

Donnie Brasco said:

And why should they suddenly pick up form when they have failed to do so all season?

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Bcause history tells us otherwise. The lowest points total in modern history to stay up has been 43 points. So unless this is by far and away the worst points total ever you have at accept that teams will pick up points. Bristol won last night didn't they?

If these teams all continue to fail then no-one is going to get close to even 40 points. History dictates that will not happen. We saw Forest win 2 and draw 1 out of the 3 games, Millwall have suddenly had a bit of an upsurge, and Bristol won lost night, along with Doncaster.

Of course teams are going to pick up points.

if we had at least have managed a singel draw out of those 10 staright away defeats then I could see that perhaps we will pick up something somewhere, but we didn't. 7 goals in 17 away games. No goals in the last 3, 10 straight defeats.

Other teams have shown they can pick up points on the road (Donnay last night at Forets, Bristol even won away at Southampton). We are the one team to show that we have been unable to pick up points on the road.

Otis said:

If these teams all continue to fail then no-one is going to get close to even 40 points. History dictates that will not happen. We saw Forest win 2 and draw 1 out of the 3 games, Millwall have suddenly had a bit of an upsurge, and Bristol won lost night, along with Doncaster.

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I do agree it looks bad - the only thing that makes me think it's do-able is that usually there are 1 or 2 teams truly cast adrift and then it's the final relegation slot that's up for grabs. This season does seem to be different and I firmly believe that, whoever stays up, will do so with the lowest points total in a while - simply because all 3 teams in the bottom 3 are still picking up the odd win here and there but that's it - because all 3-5 teams that are at serious risk of going down are as bad as one another, I don't think one will go on a run to escape from the others by much. That said, I'm no more a psychic than anyone else on here so we'll have to see!

@richh87 said:

The fans who blame Thorn rather than SISU tend to know sod all.

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You must get a hell of a calf workout jumping to these conclusions. So if these people (who don't seem to actually exist) know sod all, what of those absolving Thorn of all blame as if it's somehow impossible for both parties to have their faults?

Another case of people here seeing just black or white.

I don't think anybody 100% blames Thorn or 100% SISU. Just because somebody says things are Thorn's fault it doesn't mean that it also isn't partly SISU's fault.

In another thread you said that you think it is ok to shout abuse at Baker but when somebody says a bad word about Thorn it means they don't support the team blah blah.

Nick said:

I don't think anybody 100% blames Thorn or 100% SISU. Just because somebody says things are Thorn's fault it doesn't mean that it also isn't partly SISU's fault.

In another thread you said that you think it is ok to shout abuse at Baker but when somebody says a bad word about Thorn it means they don't support the team blah blah.

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My own personal view is that it is very hard to judge what is Thorns fault. As he has to produce under the costrainnts that have been placed on him by SISU's decision making.

When we are in the botom three in January then we sell our top goal scorer without having a cheaper replacemnt signed on the dotted line. I struggle a bit to blame AT.
Surely SISU could have waited 4 months to see if the Juke could have helped us stay up. Surely the cost of relegation is more than the money gleemed from the Juke sale.

The only time I feel I have been able to judge AT was the difference he made with the same bunch of players when he took over from AB. Since then SISU have made bad decision after bad decision.

I feel I could only judge Thorn if he is allowed to bring in free transfers in the summer and has his own chosen replacement for every player we sell which ever division we are in.

Then see what happens. But I honestly struggle to judge him when Westwood, Marlon, Gunnar, Turner and the Juke go, and they are replaced with Murphy, and 2 loanees in January.

Murphy & Cody maybe, Westwood and Marlon were better but I would say AT would have said yes I am happy with Murphy and Cody as replacements.
Nimley and Norwood are good but that happened too late.

It should be a one out one in policy. When those 4 first senior top class pro's went Thorne should have been allowed to sign 4 free transfers on less wages. He wasnt so I find it hard to judge him.

Last season we just about avoided relegation then we make the team weaker what do you expect him to do. This christmas we are in the bottom 3 and we sell our only goal scorer again what do you expect will happen. Those decisions are made by the owners.

Thorn also turned down loan signings, he has also commented last week about how he has a hard choice now picking the team, take a look at the away record compared to the home record....

What do you expect AT to say? The players i have now are not good enough and we have no chance of staying up! What do you think would happen if he said the truth?

Big Cyrille said:

What do you expect AT to say? The players i have now are not good enough and we have no chance of staying up! What do you think would happen if he said the truth?

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I dont think it would have much of an affect on our away record.

Big Cyrille said:

What do you expect AT to say? The players i have now are not good enough and we have no chance of staying up! What do you think would happen if he said the truth?

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Is he forced to go to the Telegraph and say how he feels he cannot pick a midfield because he has too many options? Surely that is classed as lying if it isn't true?

Maybe the players need a bit of "buck your ideas up else we are going down" rather than "we were unlucky, we had the ball and possession, we all played amazing" when we clearly didn't?

Dont want to turn this into a Thorn in /out discussion. Too many of those on here and same things repeated and not heard. Bottom line is that everyone involved at CCFC has contributed to us being where we are. You can argue to what degree it is a particular individuals responsibility. The reality is that not one of them sets out to fail and they each do the best they can given their own objectives and qualities.

It is no good saying SISU should pump millions more into the club then write it off if they sell it - that is not the real world. They got the sums wrong at the start and lost focus and control at that time, didnt communicate - that they got all wrong. It was made clear last March when Dulieu and co took over, it was in each copy of the accounts - the club was making losses, it couldnt find funding, they were looking for investors, they would have to wheel & deal players. Like it or not the information was there we had no money, not a pot to piss in! SISU are hard nosed business people not a charity - really surprises me fans are surprised that so few players came in. We dont have to like it, and we dont, but thats the reality

AT, well there never was any real money for him to have, he is closer to what goes on than any of us so surely knew this. Surely he knew that there would be a need to wheel and deal players. Surely he realised that as we have achieved so few results that this affected finances, it affected players wanting or being able to come here, and to be fair to the guy he has always said "we have what we have lets get on with it" That doesnt stop him having made mistakes that no amount of money would have changed. There is an arguement for saying we should judge him on a "proper" financed club but equally there is an arguement for saying he should never have got the job because he didnt have the experience or qualifications to get us through what was always going to be a tough season.

btw proper financed does not mean just throwing money at it - it needs to be sustainable, we need to be able to pay our way. That has consquences for the team and squad - get used to it.

Players leaving - well yes it would have been good to keep them, but lets be honest they were here last year and we achieved what exactly ? Staying up thats what. We are still in with a chance of that (though it looks increasingly less likely). However had we kept Turner, King, Westwood, Gunnarsson etc how would we have paid them ? SISU never guaranteed extra funds, what they said was that it was their intention to source more funds and that would include player sales. We simply could not afford those players there was no money, there was no one who wanted to put money in, there was no one to pay off SISU in acceptable terms. Yes it would be great to have those players but it is pointless to go on with that because it isnt what we have.

Players - Only bright spot has been the young players in my opinion. The older more experienced ones have been inconsistent, ineffective and some a downright waste of money. Players like McSheffery, Clingan Crainie have not performed to their standards. Others like Eastwood have ripped the club off - a professional high paid sportsman not being physically fit to play (not injured) is simply outrageous. The guy earns what ? £10k pw ? what could AT have done with that? The likes of Baker, Bell, McPake have spluttered away but failed to get started this season, but get new contracts approved by SISU yes but not without AT's input

There is more, I could go on on and on ...... surely many would add to this.

But the point I am making is that it isnt one person, one squad or one organisation at fault it is all of them. AT is part of that, he has done good and bad this season but it all contributes to where we are now. The players even the Board and SISU have done some good things and bad it all adds up.

We need to get away from it is AT's fault or it isnt his fault its all SISU's. That is not the real world

Just my opinion

Nick said:

Is he forced to go to the Telegraph and say how he feels he cannot pick a midfield because he has too many options? Surely that is classed as lying if it isn't true?

Maybe the players need a bit of "buck your ideas up else we are going down" rather than "we were unlucky, we had the ball and possession, we all played amazing" when we clearly didn't?

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Looking at the midfield, mediocrity in depth gives rise to a selection headache. I presume that's what he's talking about. We don't have anyone with a 'stick-on' quality. We have no pace. At all. Our midfield enforcer - Deegan - appears to have forgotten how to enforce. Our playmaker - Clingan - is seemingly more interested in his next contract as opposed to remembering how to pick a pass. Beyond that we have a homogeneous mass of players who are promising but not quite ready yet, or those who never have, and never will amount to anything.

What does he do - that's his quandary? It's like the proverbial hypothesis: you're in a bath of shite right up to your neck. Someone's going to throw a bucket of piss in your face. Do you duck?

Double-postin' crazy fool.....

Mary_Mungo_Midge said:

It's like the proverbial hypothesis: you're in a bath of shite right up to your neck. Someone's going to throw a bucket of piss in your face. Do you duck?

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I would at least shut my mouth, and I believe a set of googles would be in order. is that the right answer?

skybluesteve76 said:

a very poor Palace side. They are nearly as bad as us on the road

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Are you serious? that'll be Palace who have 6 wins and 4 draws away from home? Compared to our measly 3 draws. yeah they're crap on the road aren't they.

If we had their away record we'd be a few points off the playoffs. Maybe think about it a bit next time you slag off a team much higher in the league than us for being very poor.

I think Palace were doing just enough, they were generally pretty tight at the back, closed down the midfield but created little. But lets be honest first half in particular they didnt need to do much more than that. Think they made a mistake in not going for the second goal and sitting back. Certainly dont see them as very poor.

Moff said:

I would at least shut my mouth, and I believe a set of googles would be in order. is that the right answer?

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It's a policy I wish a few on here would adopt ;-)

I'm sure a few post with beer goggles on.

To expound on OSB's post #27.

It would be no mean achievement for the club to be turned round & put on a stable footing, I no longer have a hard nosed SISU out attitude, I realise the alternative strategy of speculating to achieve will only lead to the sort of mess Portsmouth & Rangers are in.

And a random thought of my own, I'd love to know what Thorn is like off camera, hopefully when things are less mad the club will resume the fans forums in Coventry. Maybe if they stay up they'll be happy to present one, but can I understand if they don't want to during the run in period.