CCFC Ltd cannot be run at a loss... (1 Viewer)

Voice_of_Reason · Feb 17, 2013

Whoever owns the shares in CCFC Ltd, the company (CCFC Ltd) cannot be run at a loss. Surely ACL/Council have brains to realize this ? I am NOT a lover of SISU, but I can see it's point... SISU is trying to get CCFC Ltd to be able to operate at a profit. This will apply to any owner of the club. Whatever "deal" has to be reached surely it has to be one that enables CCFC Ltd to be run at a profit ? (The FFP rules will benefit the owners of CCFC Ltd). I hate saying this as SISU has shafted us right left and centre, but I feel we should support its stance against ACL/Council.

Flying Fokker · Feb 17, 2013

CCFC is a cash cow being milked in all directions.

SBS · Feb 17, 2013

I detest SISU for what they did to our club last season. They caused the fans to turn on each other and made us a laughing stock.

However, if you imagine it was Hoffman using these tactics to lower the rent, I guarantee you 99% of the fans would fully support him.

stupot07 · Feb 17, 2013

Completely agree VOR.

shropshirecov · Feb 17, 2013

Some people want Sisu out so much they're willing for the club to die if thats what it takes.

SBS · Feb 17, 2013

Flying Fokker said:
CCFC is a cash cow being milked in all directions.

Too many people trying to make a pound out of this. Isn't McGinnity involved in the Compass group? Pretty sure he was owner of the company that made all the seats for the ground too.

Nathccfc · Feb 17, 2013

I am coming round slightly to the fact that by lowering the expenditure of the club, ie lowering wage bill and what get else they have done, is actually the right thing to do, I didn't agree with it at the time, because it left us behind in comparison to other teams but with the fair play ruling coming in, will it give us tr upper hand when the rule comes into force fully? If we can get on par with income and outcome then like anything well be ok, but the way Sisu went about it first off was wrong, but I could see what they were trying to achieve, they are playing hardball with the council because they want to best possible deal for the club, (wouldn't everyone) now I'm no Sisu lover, but is it actually the council which are screwing us over? Sisu are apparently renowned for getting on the cheap and then selling for a profit, so with this in mind in order for them to sell us for a profit, they will have to have some assets, (surely?) so getting the stadium would be one, I think Sisu mean good, but have gone the total wrong way about doing it, which is why most of us hate Sisu for what they have.

rupert_bear · Feb 17, 2013

Voice_of_Reason said:
Whoever owns the shares in CCFC Ltd, the company (CCFC Ltd) cannot be run at a loss. Surely ACL/Council have brains to realize this ? I am NOT a lover of SISU, but I can see it's point... SISU is trying to get CCFC Ltd to be able to operate at a profit. This will apply to any owner of the club. Whatever "deal" has to be reached surely it has to be one that enables CCFC Ltd to be run at a profit ? (The FFP rules will benefit the owners of CCFC Ltd). I hate saying this as SISU has shafted us right left and centre, but I feel we should support its stance against ACL/Council.

Is there such a company/business as CCFC Ltd ? I'm not sure there is anymore. Are there shares we can buy ? is there AGMs anymore, never been really sure what the football clubs official standing is since sisu took over.

Bluegloucester · Feb 17, 2013

SBS said:
Too many people trying to make a pound out of this. Isn't McGinnity involved in the Compass group? Pretty sure he was owner of the company that made all the seats for the ground too.

Compass is a pubicly listed company, McGinnity has nothing to do with, where do you get this crap from?

SBS · Feb 17, 2013

Bluegloucester said:
Compass is a pubicly listed company, McGinnity has nothing to do with, where do you get this crap from?

Apologies, something I swear I previously read. I was t sure and the fact it was a question and not a statement should have alluded you to that.

Mucca Mad Boys · Feb 17, 2013

SBS said:
I detest SISU for what they did to our club last season. They caused the fans to turn on each other and made us a laughing stock.

However, if you imagine it was Hoffman using these tactics to lower the rent, I guarantee you 99% of the fans would fully support him.

Kay's himself thinks the rent is too high and said if we can't find a reasonable price, we will find somewhere new to play! SISU propose these alternatives, they are everything under the sun, but, if 2 separate and as we know, Keys loathes SISU, yet they feel the same on this topic. My conclusion, ACL are in the wrong here, but, at the end of the day, I'm not negotiating am I? So I don't know where the truth lies exactly, but one truth is, the rent is a disgrace, and if they want that 1.3m backdated, that is unreasonable, even if they give us 100 years to pay it, that's not the point.

I think he said this on talksport, not 100% but it was an interview.

coundonskyblue · Feb 17, 2013

Sisu seem to think it is acceptable for ACL to run at a loss though.

Whatever deal is struck should be benificial to both parties. ACL shouldn't offer a rent deal that would see itself go into the red.

This magical 'average league 1 rent' that Fisher keeps going on about is irrelevant if ACL can't afford to offer it.

Mucca Mad Boys · Feb 17, 2013

coundonskyblue said:
Sisu seem to think it is acceptable for ACL to run at a loss though.

Whatever deal is struck should be benificial to both parties. ACL shouldn't offer a rent deal that would see itself go into the red.

This magical 'average league 1 rent' that Fisher keeps going on about is irrelevant if ACL can't afford to offer it.

Well that would be down to ACL being inefficient and not being able to provide quality service without having to fleece the club who sort provide the service etc. on match days.

coundonskyblue · Feb 17, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
Well that would be down to ACL being inefficient and not being able to provide quality service without having to fleece the club who sort provide the service etc. on match days.

The same could be said about CCFC. If they ran their business properly then £400k a year rent should be a doddle to pay.

Its not ACL's fault that Sisu are incompetent business people.

Grendel · Feb 17, 2013

coundonskyblue said:
The same could be said about CCFC. If they ran their business properly then £400k a year rent should be a doddle to pay.

Its not ACL's fault that Sisu are incompetent business people.

That's nonsense. If the club paid it and slashed the wage budget you'd be the first to say they are not investing in the team.

coundonskyblue · Feb 17, 2013

Grendel said:
That's nonsense. If the club paid it and slashed the wage budget you'd be the first to say they are not investing in the team.

400k would be 1 players wage bill. I would sacrifice 1 player if it secured the long term future of the club.

You have to ask why CCFC loses £4-£5m a year, the stadium situation is not the only problem.

stupot07 · Feb 17, 2013

coundonskyblue said:
400k would be 1 players wage bill. I would sacrifice 1 player if it secured the long term future of the club.

You have to ask why CCFC loses £4-£5m a year, the stadium situation is not the only problem.

Not in this league it isn't - our total wage and transfer budget this season is just under £4m - are we paying 10 players £400k a year and the rest of the squad playing for free?

The average wage in the championship is about £210k per annum. League one it's £73k per annum.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2055140/Premier-League-wages-FIVE-times-Championship.html

Stevec189 · Feb 17, 2013

coundonskyblue said:
400k would be 1 players wage bill. I would sacrifice 1 player if it secured the long term future of the club.

You have to ask why CCFC loses £4-£5m a year, the stadium situation is not the only problem.

Richard Wood if he is getting £10k per week as some on here allude to and the rent could be paid. Seems like a reasonable deal . Coundon you are correct there is much more wrong than just the rent. If more on here got their arses up the ground every week it would help or bought a few things in the club shop. There are many ways of adding a few quid to the fund! PUSB

Mucca Mad Boys · Feb 17, 2013

coundonskyblue said:
400k would be 1 players wage bill. I would sacrifice 1 player if it secured the long term future of the club.

You have to ask why CCFC loses £4-£5m a year, the stadium situation is not the only problem.

Most clubs make a loss, but if we had the RICOH and the money it brings in, we'd be able to tame the debt would we not? Who knows, CCFC might put more fort to get more concerts and more stuff around the RICOH in general, I don't know so can't guarantee anything. But without 1.28 income, they'd have to do more one could assume.

Mucca Mad Boys · Feb 17, 2013

Stevec189 said:
Richard Wood if he is getting £10k per week as some on here allude to and the rent could be paid. Seems like a reasonable deal . Coundon you are correct there is much more wrong than just the rent. If Moreno here gottheir arses up the ground every weekit would help or bought a few things in the club shop. There are many ways of adding a few quid to the fund! PUSB

His contract runs out at he end of the season, and no one wants him, hence he's still here, he'll only stay if he takes a wage cut, I'm not holding my breathe, I wouldn't be too bothered either.

coundonskyblue · Feb 17, 2013

SkyBlue_Taylor said:
Most clubs make a loss, but if we had the RICOH and the money it brings in, we'd be able to tame the debt would we not? Who knows, CCFC might put more fort to get more concerts and more stuff around the RICOH in general, I don't know so can't guarantee anything. But without 1.28 income, they'd have to do more one could assume.

Your right that owning the Ricoh would help the long term future of the club, but that is a very different argument to the rent issue.

Jack Griffin · Feb 17, 2013

So are we saying that when Woods contract is up the club will have enough to cover a £400K rent & pay for an adequate replacement?
Apparently Sheffs contract ends this summer too, but David Bell is glued on for another 2 years.
Clearly CCFC are still suffering from past mistakes inheirited from Orange Ken.

The average L1 salary is 75K, but Coventry's average is likely to be above that as their budget even today is clearly some way higher than league average.
The squad is quite large and isn't full of players that are of poor standard for the division, remember they are constrained to a salary cap of 70% of turnover this year & they're still able to get loan players in, so its not exactly the end of the world.

I agree wih the title of the topic, just don't agree the methods being employed to try & get it or with any consequent distressing of ACL's business model.

Grendel · Feb 17, 2013

Jack Griffin said:
So are we saying that when Woods contract is up the club will have enough to cover a £400K rent & pay for an adequate replacement?
Apparently Sheffs contract ends this summer too, but David Bell is glued on for another 2 years.
Clearly CCFC are still suffering from past mistakes inheirited from Orange Ken.

The average L1 salary is 75K, but Coventry's average is likely to be above that as their budget even today is clearly some way higher than league average.
The squad is quite large and isn't full of players that are of poor standard for the division, remember they are constrained to a salary cap of 70% of turnover this year & they're still able to get loan players in, so its not exactly the end of the world.

I agree wih the title of the topic, just don't agree the methods being employed to try & get it or with any consequent distressing of ACL's business model.

You seem thrilled that we are competitive in this division. The punitive restrictions the club has to endure means we will not be competitive in the championship. Outer income is restricted compared to our competitors. So we cannot attract decent players or a top manager.

Still as long as ACL are "alright Jack" than so are you eh Jack.

Jack Griffin · Feb 17, 2013

You'll have to look up what punative means, you don't seem to have got the idea straight. Who is punishing the club, its not like they're subject to reparations imposed for war crimes, they've only got themselves to blame. LOL, maybe SISU are full of machocists

FFP rules apply to the Championship too, but the club has to get out of this division first.

- Financial Fair Play (FFP) in the Championship will require clubs to stay within defined limits on losses and shareholder equity investment that will reduce significantly across a five season period.

There are no guarantees in football, eg QPR & Aston V***a are spending relatively large wages for their relative league positions, but they are still in the mire.

Mucca Mad Boys · Feb 17, 2013

Jack Griffin said:
So are we saying that when Woods contract is up the club will have enough to cover a £400K rent & pay for an adequate replacement?
Apparently Sheffs contract ends this summer too, but David Bell is glued on for another 2 years.
Clearly CCFC are still suffering from past mistakes inheirited from Orange Ken.

The average L1 salary is 75K, but Coventry's average is likely to be above that as their budget even today is clearly some way higher than league average.
The squad is quite large and isn't full of players that are of poor standard for the division, remember they are constrained to a salary cap of 70% of turnover this year & they're still able to get loan players in, so its not exactly the end of the world.

I agree wih the title of the topic, just don't agree the methods being employed to try & get it or with any consequent distressing of ACL's business model.

Not quite the point I was making, I was stating we still had him because no one wanted him. Sheff and Bell have extended because of AT, it was his will and Orange Ken sorted it out (backing the manager), so it's not his fault, because it's infactual, I hope that wasn't a cheap shot on SISU, was it?

Jack Griffin · Feb 17, 2013

Nope, but I was being critical of fomer management decisions, there were plenty of posters who expressed the same view when Bell & Sheffs contract renewals were announced.

People will want Wood, just not at that price, he is past his best, we're overpaying for what we get ATM. I wouldn't be against him staying here particularly if we don't get promoted, just at a competative salary rather than an inflated one.

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Feb 17, 2013

coundonskyblue said:
Sisu seem to think it is acceptable for ACL to run at a loss though.

Whatever deal is struck should be benificial to both parties. ACL shouldn't offer a rent deal that would see itself go into the red.

This magical 'average league 1 rent' that Fisher keeps going on about is irrelevant if ACL can't afford to offer it.

Yea lets get an independent third party to help get a fair deal for both sides of the negotiation, someone really should suggest this

rupert_bear · Feb 17, 2013

Richard Wood ? I'llnever get what that dipstick Colman seen in him

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Feb 17, 2013

rupert_bear said:
Richard Wood ? I'llnever get what that dipstick Colman seen in him

I remember when he signed Coleman said he was the best centre half in the championship or something like that

Mucca Mad Boys · Feb 17, 2013

Jack Griffin said:
Nope, but I was being critical of fomer management decisions, there were plenty of posters who expressed the same view when Bell & Sheffs contract renewals were announced.

People will want Wood, just not at that price, he is past his best, we're overpaying for what we get ATM. I wouldn't be against him staying here particularly if we don't get promoted, just at a competative salary rather than an inflated one.

It wasn't poor-management from the board though, it was the manager's will and he got it.

Nonleagueherewecome · Feb 17, 2013

shropshirecov said:
Some people want Sisu out so much they're willing for the club to die if thats what it takes.

OR we could get rid of Bell and Wood (or ideally not have signed them on those wages in the first place) and pay the rent with the money saved! The whole idea that it's the extortionate rent that has us in financial difficulties is ridiculous.

Flying Fokker · Feb 17, 2013

Agreed, Bell/Wood are expensive. 1 salary would cover 2 players in this division. We would still be able to pay a chunk of the rent with the other salary.

oldskyblue58 · Feb 17, 2013

am tempted to say well it has been since 1996 and it is still, and is still likely to be next year.......... so it can be run at a loss

However more seriously ....................... I have argued for a long time that it has to be run it has to be run within its means. There is no sugar daddy, SISU have I feel drawn a line as to their revenue funding, the business has to stand on its own two feet.

However the rent issue and in deed the "other income sources" will not in themselves solve the problem ............... the only info we have is looking back (yes i know things are different now, will come to that) but if for the years 2008 through to 2011 you take out all rent and include £2m in extra income after deducting VAT for each year CCFC and CCFC H still have combined losses of nearly £40m.

Additional income streams bring a bigger budget for wages but those additional streams have their own costs as well. Say the income sources of £2m come with direct costs of £1m that leaves £1m cash to pay additional player costs. However the additional player budget is £1.3m ........... without additional funding (otherwise known as debt) then we can not utilise the full budget.

Currently I would estimate that income from normal activities is £5.2m to which is added the profits on Keogh Bigi & Robins say £2.1m total circa £7.3m.
Costs meanwhile are £4m in player wages under FFP, say another £1m for younger players not covered, managers, coaches, directors etc. Direct costs are circa £1m (confirmed be TF on Friday radio morning show) Other overhead costs excluding rent say £3m, Interest payable £1m +..... Holding company costs £500k.

That lot adds up to a loss of £3.2. and that is before the legal and professional costs of the dispute that suspect CCFC is liable for.... that wont be cheap. Yes I know that it is all guesswork but what if it was close to reality?

btw the cashflow situation may well be even worse because transfers are staged in payment but included in P&L at date of transfer

so how much extra income is actually available from match day sources say it is £2m as i estimated above but dont forget there will be additional costs to factor in for that income too. That would still leave us in a loss situation. Next year of course there is a very real possibility of even less income because we do not have many Keogh s or Bigi's to sell, cant guarantee cup runs etc. Does a nil rent and the matchday income actually plug the gap ..... doesnt look like it, not unless we get used to a smaller player budget and what that might mean.

This I admit is all guess work but educated guess work based on SISU own figures in the accounts ...... however you have to ask dont SISU already know all this? So what are they actually planning? I am sure they have better figures than me (would be worried if they didnt) Some of the costs might be lower....... the total income might be better than I estimate ...... but I find this all worrying and the conclusion I draw is that a nil rent and getting all the match day income does not make us profitable, may well not mean break even either.

final thought is that TF says SISU are now owed £45m+ ..... 31st May 2011 it was £30m...... thats funding of £15m+ in 20 months..... where is it going?.

This isnt a post bashing one side or the other...... not bashing SISU .................. but think, does it all add up (for want of a better phrase )

It has and remains the same general solution..... reduce the rent, reduce all costs, get match day income sources etc.........but above all else get more people to come and watch because that affects all else directly. Requires funding and targeted intelligent investment in the team/squad though (not just funding the losses already tied into) and we dont seem to have had it. A catch 22 really isnt it !

Grendel · Feb 17, 2013

I would say £2 million is a good guess bit I am unclear if you take ground sponsorship naming rights etc into the equation.

Bluegloucester · Feb 17, 2013

oldskyblue58 said:
am tempted to say well it has been since 1996 and it is still, and is still likely to be next year.......... ]

And at present, we have no shirt sponsor for next season.

CCFC Ltd cannot be run at a loss... (1 Viewer)

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Jack Griffin

Guest

Well-Known Member

Jack Griffin

Guest

Well-Known Member

Jack Griffin

Guest

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

CCFC Finance Director

Well-Known Member

New Member

Users who are viewing this thread

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency